race- maybe?

[gazhekwe]

Commitment is important in maintaining a homesite and neighborhood. When there are a lot of people renting already substandard housing, that doesn't happen. It also takes leadership. I think our fellow poster Cub is showing how that works on Georgia Street. There could be a problem if one person spiffs up their place and it looks like a brand new Mustang sitting in a scrap yard. That's where the internalized stereotypes kick in.

A wise elder used to call that "The Indian Land Crab Syndrome."

It seems two guys were going fishing, and they each had a bucket of land crabs for bait. One man was white, the other was Indian. As they walked towards their boat, the white man had to keep stopping to retrieve crabs that jumped out of his bucket. After about the third time he was putting crabs back in the bucket, he noticed the Indian man wasn't having the same problem.

"Why are your crabs staying in the bucket so nice, while mine keep escaping?" he asked.

"Mine are Indian crabs," responded the Indian man. "As soon as one gets near the top, the others pull him back down."

That is how it works when one grows up knowing one is perceived as inferior to the dominant race. No one wants to be better than their fellows, lest they become identified with the ones they see as oppressors.

[Bearinabox]

Well, English, I'll just ask a simple question: do you honestly think it would go over well if the mayor appointed a white police chief? Would there be an outcry if a white person were to run the school system?

Hell, there's enough outcry with a black guy running the school system. The BAMN/Michigan Citizen types will protest anyone remotely honest and competent, regardless of race.

[dookie joe]

Race is a factor, but it's certainly not the most important one. The biggest impediment to our city moving forward is the culture of corruption that goes back decades, and the lack of funds to cover the costs. Perhaps having the feds peeking over the shoulders of city officials might help -- but the federal government isn't exactly the most honest and well-run organization in the world, either.

Detroit obviously isn't alone in being corrupt. But this city no longer has the tax base to cover up the corruption. If a politician steals or misappropriates a few hundred thou, it hurts a lot worse than if the same thing happened in another more prosperous city.

Back when Coleman Young and his Band of Merry Crooks were stealing the city blind, there were lots of federal dollars pouring into the city, courtesy of Hizzoner's good buddy, Jimmy Carter. But that money is, as Ernie would say, looonng gone.

Combine political corruption with a low tax base and throw in for good measure a culture of racial divisiveness and opportunism. What do you have? A recipe for municipal doo-doo stew. It's what's for supper, and I don't see the menu changing any time soon.

[shovelhead]

And why is Bobb getting heat? Because he is trying to upset the status quo. No one wants change if it affects them, especially in their wallet.

I have a friend that is a staunch union man, Almost too staunch IMO. And not a city worker or city resident either. He's critical of Dave Bing big time. And why? Because Mayor Bing wants to renegotiate contracts. He freely admits it as the reason too.

The old IGMFY,[[I got mine, forget [[cleaned up) you) routine. Everyone needs to give concessions, except me. That seems to be the prevailing attitude. I work in the private sector and last year my employer cut salaries. No one was happy , but a fact of life. We survived.

[Patrick]

Are there large numbers of nonblacks who actually want to work for the City?

Take a look at the DFD numbers....lots of white guys.

And why is Bobb getting heat? Because he is trying to upset the status quo. No one wants change if it affects them, especially in their wallet

Agents of change are always pressured to keep the cozy people feeling ...well...cozy.

[sumas]

There is an old hymn that claims "time make ancient good uncouth". Perhaps ward systems were corrupt but the city worked then.

Need local representation, At large certainly hasn't spared us from corruption.

[Bearinabox]

There is an old hymn that claims "time make ancient good uncouth". Perhaps ward systems were corrupt but the city worked then.

Need local representation, At large certainly hasn't spared us from corruption.

The argument against ward systems in the early 20th century had a lot to do with the city being a patchwork of immigrant enclaves. Upper-class native-born Protestant whites wanted to limit the political power of the growing blue-collar, largely Catholic immigrant communities [[whose ward bosses, while certainly corrupt, provided those groups with a voice in local politics they would not have otherwise had). Eliminating the wards removed the relevance of those geographically-concentrated voting blocs, and made city politics all but incomprehensible to newly-arrived, barely-literate immigrants who often spoke little to no English.

Prohibition, incidentally, was a related reform touted by the same group of upper-class Protestant whites. Drinking was a significant aspect of many of these working-class immigrant cultures, and ward bosses often used drinking establishments to recruit supporters to their political machines.

In other words, I don't think the 1910s-era rationale for abolishing the ward system is in any way relevant to the present-day city of Detroit.

[shovelhead]

Quote:Commitment is important in maintaining a homesite and neighborhood. When there are a lot of people renting already substandard housing, that doesn't happen


I can attest to renters in decent housing not caring. With rare exceptions, renters are there for a short time with no sense of community. Our previous northwest suburban city's neighborhood was undergoing a transformation. The neighborhood housing stock had a average price of the mid 100,000's. But on two sides were new developments at 300k & up. And being near a lake was a plus for our subdivision.

Well, a lot of residents took advantage of the high values and sold. Our neighbor to the right lived there thirty years, we were short timers, only fifteen years there. Investors bought up the housing stock to rent/lease, depreciate the house for tax purposes, then count on inflation to increase the value of the land, demolish the house [[in the future) and profit on the land. At least one investor told me this was how it worked.

Well, in the interim the "class" of renters or should I say no class renters moved in. I'm no angel, but when I restored a car, it was in the garage during the build, not in the front yard on blocks. All the heavy work like body/painting was done off site.Never ran the compressor or used air tools after dark. So I was not a nuisance. And my yard was kept up/clean/landscaped. Despite having teenagers and working two jobs and my spouse working full time also.In fact, the outside frequently was maintained before inside cleaning on the weekends.

In this community you had to contract for your own garbage pickup. Well, one stacked up trash alongside the house for a few weeks. Or the lovely little gangster wannabes that harassed the preteens in the neighborhood. And when one of the neighbors called the police to report an incident, they retaliated by setting the spare tire cover on their van afire. Or dump a couch in the front yard for a couple of weeks until they figured out that aliens from outer space were not going to abduct it and take it to the mother ship. That was a lovely scene, torn stuffing blowing down the street and waterlogged from spring rains. Calling the city was useless, nothing would get done anyway except if you pissed off a elected official, then you were on the s*** list IMO. I did and I was at one point. A whole other story there.

These were just some of the wonderful interactions we had with the new tenants. And they were all white if anyone cares to ask. Trash is trash, regardless of the color or where they came from.

Sorry for the drift in the post, just wanted to point out a problem not unique to the city of Detroit.

[English]

There's really not any interest here in considering all of the factors that urban historians and sociologists have written about at length, or at disrupting the usual narratives in this thread. Repeating the same mantras that we've known longer than I've been alive just hasn't worked. Recounting the pathos of black America and the racism of white America feel like a tired, well-worn cliche that your children and grandchildren already have limited patience for, especially when many of those grandchildren are neither white nor black.

Royce, no answers were expected to my questions, of course. Of course, we all know the answers on both sides. It's tired, tired, tired... just as the original poster's premise is tired. The original poster's premise is also irrelevant. There were the same racial factors in many, many other cities. Detroit isn't unique in that regard. What makes this area unique is that it just doesn't seem to realize that 1970 was 40 years ago, that 1960 was 50 years ago, and that the racial, ethnic, social, and economic conditions of the mid-20th century are gone. They are never coming back. Other cities have realized this and are looking forward. For my entire life, Detroit has been looking back. No WONDER we can't make any progress. We're walking backwards, trying to gain momentum, yet act shocked when we crash into a wall or stumble over our own feet.

There are three sides to every story. Very few Detroiters, black, white, or others are interested in the third side: the truth. I definitely believe that black Detroiters totally dropped the ball, but then again, so did white Detroiters.

The next question that follows is "so what?" If you wanted to report something groundbreaking, you're about 20-30 years too late. The historical and enduring problems of Detroit have been well articulated by better men and women than all of us. Obviously rearticulating the problems have done absolutely nothing but continue the wall building. Good fences make good neighbors, right?

I would think that in the early 21st century we'd all be tired of having the same conversation. This goes beyond Detroit and race, and gets to the very heart of the current existential crisis of America: we are not who we think we are, and we never were. And now, in 2010, race as such isn't so much the problem as black and brown people are the canary in the coal mine.

[dookie joe]

I agree with some parts of your latest post, English, but I also think race is a factor that helps hold back Detroit. That doesn't mean it isn't also a factor in places like Warren or Dearborn.

But the question was, are racial issues holding back the city of Detroit? And I think they are, although as I've pointed out, I only think it's a part of the problem.

p.s. Most topics on most Internet sites have been rehashed to death. That's the nature of discussion. There really aren't that many new topics under the sun.

[Ravine]

English, there have been times when I thought you were Talking Shit; on some of those occasions, I have taken a run at you.
So, it is only fair that I state, here, that I think that was a really good post.

[English]

English, there have been times when I thought you were Talking Shit; on some of those occasions, I have taken a run at you.

Fair enough. Trust me, the feeling has been more than mutual.

So, it is only fair that I state, here, that I think that was a really good post.

Thanks.

[FerndaleDamon]

Royce and English, I agree with both of you. You guys both made some very thoughtful, insightful points. I just thought I'd put the subject out there for some dialogue. Discussion is good. Most people on D/Y are pretty passionate about this area. Who knows- maybe we can still turn this ship around afterall.

[English]

I agree with some parts of your latest post, English, but I also think race is a factor that helps hold back Detroit. That doesn't mean it isn't also a factor in places like Warren or Dearborn.

But the question was, are racial issues holding back the city of Detroit? And I think they are, although as I've pointed out, I only think it's a part of the problem.

p.s. Most topics on most Internet sites have been rehashed to death. That's the nature of discussion. There really aren't that many new topics under the sun.

This is more than a topic on an Internet site, dookie. This is life and death and existence. It's about whether our city will thrive this century, or die completely and become another scene out of the macabre History Channel series "Life After People". It's not SecondLife or Mafia Wars.

There are real lives and a real region at stake here.

[Hermod]

There is an old hymn that claims "time make ancient good uncouth". Perhaps ward systems were corrupt but the city worked then.

Need local representation, At large certainly hasn't spared us from corruption.

The city worked under Al Cobo and that was an at-large council. Detroit got rid of the ward system long before the decline began.

[dookie joe]

This is more than a topic on an Internet site, dookie. This is life and death and existence. It's about whether our city will thrive this century, or die completely and become another scene out of the macabre History Channel series "Life After People". It's not SecondLife or Mafia Wars.

There are real lives and a real region at stake here.

Okay, but I'm not getting your point. I agree that this is a real problem. I also agree with your earlier statement that people should look forward, not backward.

And, looking forward, if our city is ever to pull itself out of this mess one of the things that will have to happen is, our elected officials and voters have to stop viewing so much through the prism of race. It isn't the main problem in Detroit, but it is a problem.

That doesn't seem too unreasonable a statement, does it? I'm not exactly sure what it is you're arguing for or against here.

[English]

^ My point is that it's not about race. Please refer to my new thread: http://detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?t=4684

In the same decade that Detroit produced Kwame Kilpatrick, Newark produced Cory Booker. Similar age, generation, and racial/ethnic background. Very different outcomes for cities that were similarly maligned and impoverished.

If you think that the inner city Newark voters don't view things through the prism of race, please watch the documentary Street Fight. Booker lost his first mayoral race because he was perceived as not black enough. He tried again and won.

The point is that this is about VISION. Without vision, Detroit will never return. And those who do have the vision are moving on with the transformation of the city. They are not waiting for Detroit voters to sing "We Shall Overcome" or blue-collar suburban conservatives to say "sure, you can come marry my daughter!" They are moving into new neighborhoods, starting businesses, building an arts community, and volunteering. Their vision is radical, and they see the conversations that people like you and I are having as so much 20th century bullsh**.

The movement is here and now, and nothing will be able to stop it. Mwilbert upthread typed the only thing worthy of consideration in this discussion, including my own posts. The activists of a new Detroit do not want to make it what it was, and it doesn't want to imitate late 20th/early 21st century "prosperity" a la Sun Belt City in the Snow Belt, USA. What we shall be, we do not know... but whatever it is, it will be different from anything else in the nation.

Someday in the future, people with clearer vision than any of us can have will analyze what happened and why. The city that they live in and know will be radically different from the one we love and know so well. I may not see that day in the flesh, but I look toward it and smile.

[EMG]

And, looking forward, if our city is ever to pull itself out of this mess one of the things that will have to happen is, our elected officials and voters have to stop viewing so much through the prism of race. It isn't the main problem in Detroit, but it is a problem.

If it "isn't the main problem," what is?

[gibran]

I totally understand english...maybe I am to optimistic ...when we start realizing that if children in Detroit suffer, so do the ones in Warren or Birmingham....why...iti obvious we are one community with many ways of expressing ourselves...but it is easier to blame the victims of poverty for the cycle than to collectively work to eliminate it..courage means getting out of your silos and seeing all of us as in this together...

Read Cornell West's autobiography...he has a great passage in his journey towards a better self...when he recalls seeing the sheer poverty of a reservation and realized it is not just a black journey but a universal journey...povertyis universal and so are the solutions..read Jeffery Sachs.

until we recognize the value in all children, then we will continue to allocate services for one group over another or not realize that accommodations are needed for parity...as far as black and entrepreneurial well, I have seen Black Wall-street or what is left of it...and know it can rise in any city...but that takes courage and support of those holding the gold as well as support of those holding the community ...when a store was recently robbed [[new grocery store opened in a neighborhood that hadn't seen one in three years) the neighborhood, mayor and local police enforcement came out to develop a plan to keep it open...why because social justice and health of the elderly in the community was too important...that is a lesson in community bridge building. It is also a lesson for all inner city business...

we all are invested in helping the poor and people in poverty...it starts with not demonizing, marginalizing, and valuing them/.

We have the answers, and they are simple as love thy neighbor as thy brother and work locally where you can...it starts with stopping racism and hate...no child is born racist...and if they can construct it they can deconstruct it.

[English]

^ Rideron, my generation has has raceraceraceraceraceraceraceraceraaaaaace jammed down our throats for many years. We get it. Trust me, we get it.

If raceraceraceraceraceraceraceraceraaaaaace was the #1 problem of Detroit, then it was identified way back in the 1960s and 1970s. People have been having these conversations, and offending each other, since my mother was a teenager. Race is already paramount around these parts, so much so that we were completely blinded to everything else that has happened to us.

I don't see where the race narrative, on the black *or* the white *or* the immigrant side, has made Detroit one iota better. Concentrating on raceraceraceraceraceraceraceracerace has made things awful for the city, and now that malaise is starting to creep into the supposedly invincible suburbs.

In the meantime, all over this nation, getting BEYOND race has made many other regions much more attractive for young, productive people. A huge number of Americans don't have the Us vs. Them mentality because they've got Us, Them, and Those Others in their families. They marry them, are best friends with them, raise their kids together, hang out, share life's moments. And no one cares. It's seen as normal in the year 2010 everywhere else in the country. Sheer demographics will mean that in another generation or two, race won't be a factor at all... even for Detroit.

I don't care who did what anymore. Let's leave the baggage of the 20th century behind and get on with the business of living in the here and now. [[Some people are already there, have rolled up their sleeves, and are working for it, but they usually don't have a whole lot of time for posting on the Internet.)

[dookie joe]

^ My point is that it's not about race. Please refer to my new thread: http://detroityes.com/mb/showthread.php?t=4684

Tell that to the city officials who keep bringing it up. Shall I provide links to the comments about "outsiders" and white people which Detroit politicians have uttered over the last few years, or can we just go ahead and stipulate it?

Okay, I'll give you that this is a new city council, and most of the glaring idiots have been shoveled out. So I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt -- for awhile. The early returns, in at least one case, doesn't look promising, though.

But how can you deny that race remains an issue? I know what you're saying, and I can dig the Utopia thing you're putting out there. But this is the real world, as you reminded me earlier.

There are people who still insist the whole Kwame Kilpatrick saga is about race. Last week, a mistrial was called, which several jurors attributed to a black juror who refused to deliberate because she was convinced the whole thing was a setup to "hang the black man."

Do I need to provide you with more reminders that, while this visionary Utopia you desribe might be nice and all, we aren't there yet?

In the same decade that Detroit produced Kwame Kilpatrick, Newark produced Cory Booker. Similar age, generation, and racial/ethnic background. Very different outcomes for cities that were similarly maligned and impoverished.

Well, maybe Booker isn't a lying, thieving criminal like Kilpatrick is. Seems like a simple answer.

If you think that the inner city Newark voters don't view things through the prism of race, please watch the documentary Street Fight. Booker lost his first mayoral race because he was perceived as not black enough. He tried again and won.

You make my point for me. He lost his election because the black voters said he wasn't black enough. People still look at things through this prism. And as long as that continues then we will never be able to get the best and brightest. By most accounts Booker has done a fine job as mayor. And yet, the voters dismissed him out of hand the first time around because they felt he wasn't black enough. How would they treat a white candidate who didn't have parents who were, to quote wikipedia, "African American trailblazers"??

Based on what you've said, the voters probably would deem a perfectly good white mayoral candidate with the talent to pull their city out of the crapper "not black enough." And as long as people think like that, nobody -- Detroit, Warren or Grosse Pointe -- will get the best and brightest to run their city.

The point is that this is about VISION. Without vision, Detroit will never return. And those who do have the vision are moving on with the transformation of the city. They are not waiting for Detroit voters to sing "We Shall Overcome" or blue-collar suburban conservatives to say "sure, you can come marry my daughter!" They are moving into new neighborhoods, starting businesses, building an arts community, and volunteering. Their vision is radical, and they see the conversations that people like you and I are having as so much 20th century bullsh**.

Well, good for them. Sounds like a Utopian community you've got going there and I hope it spreads.

But here under the flickering streetlight that only works half the time, in the real world, we still live in a situation where people, as you point out, select candidates based on whether they are "black enough" [[or in the suburbs, "white enough.")

The movement is here and now, and nothing will be able to stop it. Mwilbert upthread typed the only thing worthy of consideration in this discussion, including my own posts. The activists of a new Detroit do not want to make it what it was, and it doesn't want to imitate late 20th/early 21st century "prosperity" a la Sun Belt City in the Snow Belt, USA. What we shall be, we do not know... but whatever it is, it will be different from anything else in the nation.

I'm glad you're thinking that way, but throughout the history of Detroit, there have been ideals such as those you put forth that have been crushed by the weight of the dirty, rotten reality: Unless you're willing and able to start greasing palms, it's very difficult to get anything done in this city.

You're right; we need leaders with vision to move things forward. Now tell me who in our city's government has shown that type of vision. 'Cause I sure as hell can't think of any.

Someday in the future, people with clearer vision than any of us can have will analyze what happened and why. The city that they live in and know will be radically different from the one we love and know so well. I may not see that day in the flesh, but I look toward it and smile.

Then again ... things could always get worse.

[dookie joe]

People have been having these conversations, and offending each other, since my mother was a teenager.

Okay, right there I see your problem. Neither I nor anyone else in this thread has said anything remotely offensive. Yet the very fact that we're talking about race is offending you.

I get it now. No point in dicussing this any further. Seeya.

[dookie joe]

If it "isn't the main problem," what is?

As I said earlier, the main problem is the culture of unfettered corruption that has plagued this city since the Young Administration. That has nothing to do with skin color, and everything to do with content of character.

[stasu1213]

The automobile companies had taken their tax base that supported the neighbrhood with them. Whites had moved to get away from blacks and crime. The retails that were mainly supported by whites followed. Coleman Young's tirades and bad decision making had ran more people out. Crack cocaine. Dennis Archer's lifiting of the residential rule. Kwame's and Monica Conyer's antics. Dave Bing's downsizing and cutting. That is the 60yr history of what happened to Detroit

[EMG]

As I said earlier, the main problem is the culture of unfettered corruption that has plagued this city since the Young Administration. That has nothing to do with skin color, and everything to do with content of character.

OK, I agree that the Young Administration was one of the main points of origin of Detroit's downfall. And it could just as easily have happened regardless of the race of the mayor. But now just what was it about the Young Administration that led to "unfettered corruption that has plagued this city?"

I maintain that it was two primary aspects of his administration:

1) In an attempt to reverse perceived "racism" in the police department, Young made it impotent. He reversed strong anti-crime measures such as S.T.R.E.S.S. previously established by the police commissioner John Nichols. He destroyed the Detroit police force, with the resultant increase in crime. I believe it was the year 1974 - the very year that Coleman Young took office - that Detroit set a new annual homicide record of 801 recorded murders.

2) And yes, there is that word again - racism. Young made it the be-all and end-all of his entire campaign and of his administration. If you didn't agree with hizzoner [[as Pete Waldmeir used to call him), you were automatically a racist. And of course, Young reserved the right to define racism however and whenever he pleased. Right or wrong, Young's only significant contribution to the Detroit Metro area was to offend and polarize white people, and accelerate the resulting population decline.