Detroit Rail gets $25 million grant

[dcmorrison12]

For those who say rail is grossing expensive, keep in mind Highway\ projects FAR surpass the tab of any rail project. Also, keep in mind Rail is more efficient than highways, capacity can be EASILY expanded/decreased [[lengthen, shorten the train) and saves people money! Not to mention people actually want to live near rail....

[Detroitnerd]

I know. But they have done alot more work on this than SEMCOG. AATA [[Ann Arbor Transportation Authority) will be running it. If you go to their website you can see all the work they've done. But you got to hand it to these exburbanites for not wanting more lanes and wanting another form of commuting.

Oh, I suppose my reaction is more like, "That's nice." I imagine it will take some of the game-day traffic off 23 and help at rush hour. I hope they get TOD at the nodes and provide a good example for us to follow. But my worry that it will be a failure that doesn't deliver anything is still very real.

I guess what bugs me most is that they're going to implement this there and not here. They'll get the support of SEMCOG to build this in an area that has a perennial economy, is high-income, and seems much more racially homogeneous. They get the investment, the jobs, any attendant density and no problem! Meanwhile, it just seems SEMCOG dicks around when it comes to very modest plans for Detroit and the the immediate area.

And this gets back to my point about having scores of suburban governments get together to run things: They apparently don't see the need for a center to hold the region together. They seem content to build the transportation infrastructure to help remove congestion from the roads where wealthier people live, and just fart around when it comes to a place that would benefit from having its rail transit restored [[It was finally removed in 1956, but what remains standing was built to be served by transit) so people can just get around, to attract density and development.

And, however great it is that Ann Arborites are organized and forward-thinking, I just think this further muddles the regional picture. If you want to know why all this makes me feel sad and sullen, ask anybody who lives in the Ann Arbor area if they're from Detroit.

[English]

I could be totally wrong, but after living in Ann Arbor for 5 years [[and SE Michigan my entire life), I'd be willing to bet that the Ann Arbor-Detroit line will have far more passengers than WALLY. For several reasons, I just can't see the Livingston County folks taking the train to work unless the weather is really bad, or there's something like the Art Fair going on:

--mentality of those who choose to live far outside of town instead of in Ann Arbor/Saline/Ypsi; some people don't mind the drive

--many Ann Arbor folks are NOT on a 9-to-5 schedule. University faculty and students aren't, and neither are a lot of the people connected to the hospital system. Unless they're running trains 24 hours per day, a lot of people simply won't be able to use the line because of their schedules.

--there are a LOT of people in Detroit and Ann Arbor who do not own cars. In Detroit, it's economics. In Ann Arbor, it's both economics AND choice. Without doing any research, I know that this is not the case in the WALLY service area.

I applaud anything that encourages sustainable living, and think that WALLY ought to be a Phase I or II line. However, the metro Detroit tri-county area needs transit far more than Washtenaw-to-Livingston. If people don't care for the traffic, Ann Arbor-Ypsi-Saline offer every imaginable lifestyle and housing option... and Ann Arbor/Ypsi is served by the ultraefficient AATA.

[Detroitnerd]

I could be totally wrong, but after living in Ann Arbor for 5 years [[and SE Michigan my entire life), I'd be willing to bet that the Ann Arbor-Detroit line will have far more passengers than WALLY. For several reasons, I just can't see the Livingston County folks taking the train to work unless the weather is really bad, or there's something like the Art Fair going on:

--mentality of those who choose to live far outside of town instead of in Ann Arbor/Saline/Ypsi; some people don't mind the drive

--many Ann Arbor folks are NOT on a 9-to-5 schedule. University faculty and students aren't, and neither are a lot of the people connected to the hospital system. Unless they're running trains 24 hours per day, a lot of people simply won't be able to use the line because of their schedules.

--there are a LOT of people in Detroit and Ann Arbor who do not own cars. In Detroit, it's economics. In Ann Arbor, it's both economics AND choice. Without doing any research, I know that this is not the case in the WALLY service area.

I applaud anything that encourages sustainable living, and think that WALLY ought to be a Phase I or II line. However, the metro Detroit tri-county area needs transit far more than Washtenaw-to-Livingston. If people don't care for the traffic, Ann Arbor-Ypsi-Saline offer every imaginable lifestyle and housing option... and Ann Arbor/Ypsi is served by the ultraefficient AATA.

Good points all, English!

[English]

And, however great it is that Ann Arborites are organized and forward-thinking, I just think this further muddles the regional picture. If you want to know why all this makes me feel sad and sullen, ask anybody who lives in the Ann Arbor area if they're from Detroit.

That's because they're not from Detroit. When I lived in the D, I used to get annoyed by Ann Arborites/Tree Towners who disassociated themselves from the metro, but now I agree with them. They are not like us. Ann Arbor is in the same region, and its history is somewhat tied to that of Detroit, but it is definitely its own place. It's sort of like the difference between Baltimore and Washington, D.C. which IIRC are also about 45 minutes away from each other.

Also, a large number of people here are not from Michigan at all, but from elsewhere in the country and the world. Certainly most University of Michigan faculty and graduate students are not native Michiganders.

Good points all, English!

No problem! I've been telling everyone I know up here about the proposed Ann Arbor to Detroit commuter, and so many people are planning to use it, especially my grad student buddies. One who is from Chicago and thinks we're a complete backwater said "Well, if you guys get a decent train in here, I think I'll make it down to Detroit a lot more often!"

I also have church friends who use the SEMCOG vanpool. One buddy whom I had dinner with works at Compuware and says that if the commuter has a transfer to a bus that'll shoot down Woodward, he's all for it. I told him there was one: the Woodward DOT and SMART bus lines. And of course, once the light rail is put in, by 2012, ideally his trip should be a breeze.

[Detroitnerd]

That's because they're not from Detroit. When I lived in the D, I used to get annoyed by Ann Arborites/Tree Towners who disassociated themselves from the metro, but now I agree with them. They are not like us. Ann Arbor is in the same region, and its history is somewhat tied to that of Detroit, but it is definitely its own place. It's sort of like the difference between Baltimore and Washington, D.C. which IIRC are also about 45 minutes away from each other.

If I ask somebody who lives in Ann Arbor if they're from Detroit and they say, "Actually, I don't really consider Ann Arbor to be part of metro Detroit," I'd take no issue with that. But it often goes a lot further, and with a great deal of "emotional content."

I once had the experience of helping put together a pamphlet about metro Detroit. It was supposed to be a metro Detroit guide. That is, until the ad reps started calling businesses in Ann Arbor. It got back to me just how defensive, scared and negative a reaction potential Ann Arbor ad buyers had at being lumped in with Detroit. And, so, we wound up having to dump "Detroit" from the pamphlet's title just to accommodate them. This experience left an awful aftertaste.

Needless to say, if this is most Ann Arborites' opinion of being associated with "Detroit," is it worth the problems of trying to work with these "stakeholders" to build the region? And it highlights the problems of taking an inclusive approach, via SEMCOG, and simply hoping for the best. If they truly want nothing to do with Detroit, why work so hard to include them in the organization that should acknowledge Detroit as the center city?

As for those kids who are in town to go to school, of course I don't mean they're from Detroit.

[English]

Gotcha, Detroitnerd, and totally agree. The formidable Ann Arbor district, which is one of the most diverse in SE Michigan is taking a hit from such types who feel that Ann Arbor's schools are going downhill. It fueled a building boom in places like Saline.

When I went to points further west to supervise U-M education students, at one place I received such a chilly reception until the next visit, I switched with one of my colleagues. She went to that nameless place in western Washtenaw, and I took her eval in Southfield. That has NEVER happened to me in western Wayne, Oakland, or Macomb county -- I've never been doubted as a university field instructor anywhere near Detroit, even in districts and schools that are nearly all white. This place? Weeeelll...

Ann Arbor and Washtenaw County are far from utopia. A2 does some things incredibly well, and there are some really cool people up here, but it is a college town shielded from economic disaster by the University of Michigan's $4 billion endowment. I always keep that in mind.

[[I do wonder why we can't get the AATA people to run the Detroit bus system, though. My roommate NEVER drives to work. She takes the bus 50 weeks per year, and might dock her bike in the late spring and summer. Hmmm...)

[dtowncitylover]

English, you make great points and would totally agree with you that the Detroit-AA train would be more used than WALLY on the sole fact of population. But if you read the survey on AATA's website, you'll find great support for WALLY and the willingness to ride it. Of course, you'll also find those who know little about it.

[English]

Thanks for letting me know, Dtown. Here's the link I found:

http://www.theride.org/wally.asp

Am reading now. Estimates are 1,200 people per day. I think that sounds about right, so I wonder how many trains they'd run. I

As for the A2-to-Detroit route, the SEMCOG website says schedules and fares will be available in May. Can't wait and really hope this happens. [[I'm also hoping that the fares will be reasonable.)

[Detroitnerd]

... When I went to points further west to supervise U-M education students, at one place I received such a chilly reception until the next visit, I switched with one of my colleagues. ...

Yikes. That's what I'm talking about. Just ... yikes.

[Gsgeorge]

This excerpt from the WALLY link [[thanks English) is key when it comes to talking about any other rail system in this region, particularly Detroit-Ann Arbor & the regional light rail plans.

WHAT IS AATA’S ROLE IN MOVING WALLY FORWARD?
The AATA has assumed responsibility for leading the project and working with communities along the WALLY route, MDOT, and Great Lakes Central Railroad. AATA is providing technical support for service and station planning, and as a public agency, can apply for the government grants needed to pay for some of the improvements necessary to upgrade the line, stations and equipment.

DDOT needs to step up and take a bigger role, spearheading the coordinating efforts of the municipalities & counties with a new & open approach; or, a regional transit operating body needs to be created. Without a central leader, the projects will never progress, especially considering the region's poor reputation for peaceful coexistence.

[English]

Yikes. That's what I'm talking about. Just ... yikes.

Eh. Maybe I smelled bad that day. You never know. Just kidding... stuff like that I was raised to just shrug off and keep on moving.

But I'm so excited about this! There's even a Wikipedia article for the SEMCOG Commuter Rail: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SEMCOG_Commuter_Rail

I honestly never thought I'd see the day. It will make my first year at WSU so much easier, and then once I move back to Detroit, I'll be able to spend the day up here with friends, go to the Art Fair, or take my niece and nephew to Greenfield Village in the summer without worrying about parking or the hassles of I-94.

It reminds me of that Curtis Mayfield song... "People get ready, there's a train a-comin'..."

DDOT needs to step up and take a bigger role, spearheading the coordinating efforts of the municipalities & counties with a new & open approach; or, a regional transit operating body needs to be created. Without a central leader, the projects will never progress, especially considering the region's poor reputation for peaceful coexistence.

You're right. So who can be poached from AATA for DDOT/SMART, etc.? That sounds like the best plan. Just like Granholm snagged Robert Bobb who's a city manager with 30 years of experience to rein in DPS' finances [[and I don't agree with some of what he's done), we need to ask someone with regional and/or national bonafides in transport to helm this.

[Gsgeorge]

Anyone who has ridden Amtrak out of Detroit knows how slow the train is for the first several miles. How is the SEMCOG rail not going to be as slow or slower than the Amtrak & freight trains through Detroit? Will there be track additions or improvements?

[Detroitnerd]

Eh. Maybe I smelled bad that day. You never know. Just kidding... stuff like that I was raised to just shrug off and keep on moving.

It takes strong character to do that. Good for you. [[And shame on them!)

But I'm so excited about this ...

I am excited too. I imagine that, as in the past, they have predicted some very meager passenger traffic for the line. [[Any idea what it is?) And I also imagine the modest goals will be shattered within months.

What do they say about "the threat of a good example"? Bring it on.

[casscorridor]

I think Ann Arbor is part of Metro Detroit, but is not a suburb. Remember that the University of Michigan relocated there from Detroit. Remember that the end of the commuter rail line will be Ann Arbor. You could call the region "Southeast Michigan." I'm pretty sure suburban and exurban leaders want to re-brand Metro Detroit as this. It makes sense to them because Detroit = Bad in popular culture. The quintessential "bad" city. Therefore, especially in the outer suburbs and exurbs, residents and leaders don't want to associate themselves with Detroit.

But there has also been the opposite. Suburbanites, especially ones in the inner-ring, claiming to be Detroiters. The weekly "Real" Detroit publishes out of Ferndale. "Detroit" this or "Detroit" that, so many places with Detroit in the name but located in the burbs. It sucks because when I go to other cities I see neighborhoods full of stores and apartments and people. And in Detroit, the suburb of Royal Oak is considered the prime shopping district. I'm glad they have affinity with Detroit, but they should do Detroit a favor and actually live there.

The rail to Ann Arbor and the light-rail on Woodward are two very important steps to brining more people into the city. 40 or 50 thousand students in Ann Arbor will be able to take the train into the city or the day, and maybe they'll just end up staying. People won't write Detroit off just because there is "no" transit [[a.k.a no rail transit). I know so many ppl who have moved to Chicago, NYC, Philly, etc for a real urban experience. You can have a real urban experience right now, right here in Detroit, even before the rail opens. But the rail will be a catalyst, but it can't end there. We need a real system that covers the whole city. We need people to be inspired, and to have hope and to participate in rebuilding the city. Not only new residents, but rather most importantly the residents in the city who have been most locked out of the old economy. Who must be most locked in to the new economy.

[Bearinabox]

You're right. So who can be poached from AATA for DDOT/SMART, etc.? That sounds like the best plan. Just like Granholm snagged Robert Bobb who's a city manager with 30 years of experience to rein in DPS' finances [[and I don't agree with some of what he's done), we need to ask someone with regional and/or national bonafides in transport to helm this.

We certainly need better regional planning, in mass transit as in just about everything else, but I don't know that someone from AATA would do any better at running DDOT or SMART than the people currently in charge there. We simply aren't sending DDOT and SMART enough money for the kind of transit system we need, and the funding they have isn't very stable--DDOT is subsidized out of the city's general fund, so their funding gets slashed every time the city can't balance its budget, and SMART constantly has to worry about new opt-outs. There's only so much you can do with that situation, and I'm not sure the experience you'd get from running AATA [[which, by comparison, practically runs itself) would be all that applicable to DDOT's specific issues.

[ASR89]

Anyone who has ridden Amtrak out of Detroit knows how slow the train is for the first several miles. How is the SEMCOG rail not going to be as slow or slower than the Amtrak & freight trains through Detroit? Will there be track additions or improvements?

Yea, George, there will be improvements at West Detroit Junction, which could potentially cut the travel time between Dearborn and Detroit in half. Instead of going 10 mph, the train could go 40mph through there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWYV4wduAo8

^That's a video I took last year. As you can see in the beginning of the video, there is a bridge that used to connect what is currently Conrail and Canadian National trackage. They're going to put back in the connection track and build a second track that runs parallel to what's there right now, to connect with the second track that currently exists. Right now, those two tracks go down to one, where Amtrak crosses over to Conrail, to take the sharp 90+ degree S-curve to go west/east.

[neighbor]

But rail is the safest form of transportation on Earth.

Because when trains crash they are mostly empty.

[Hermod]

Because when trains crash they are mostly empty.

No, even when you consider the crowded trains of Europe, on a passenger-mile or passenger-hour basis, rail is the safest mode.