Detroit Rail gets $25 million grant

[neighbor]

My point was that with such a short distance being built it will have such low usage nobody will want to build another line or extend this one.

For light rail to work it needs to start in a suburb or in a Detroit neighborhood very close to the border.

For me, if there were a rail line around Alter and Jefferson I would take it a lot. I would only ride the proposed stretch once to check it out.

So, let's put it out there this way.

If this 3 mile stretch is built how often would you ride it?

[Russix]

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Not to mention, NO ONE knows how this plan will materialize. It could be more frequent stops in a dedicated lane with signal priority. It could be curbside with signal priority. It could resemble the DTOGs plan.
…

I’ve always been under the impression that mass transit was for the public. And that mass transit systems should be designed to serve the greater good of everyone. Something about private interest and backroom planning does not seem highly conclusive of these principles.

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Either way the thing will bring people up and down Woodward without a car. The point is it really doesn't matter if it goes much faster than a car -- it never will. The point is creating activity, density, development and movement in the Woodward corridor.
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Transit’s true value is its efficiency over the car once you’ve created an area full of activity, density and development.

The point is getting people --suburban visitors and urban residents alike-- from the DIA to Comerica Park without having to park downtown, and get them WALKING in between so they stop along the way to spend their money at stores and restaurants.

If your not creating something that actually gives someone an incentive to leave their car at home, their not logically going to drive 90% of the way to ride transit the last 10% of the way unless parking has become somewhat of a scarcity. In that rare situation people will park further north, use it for the single purpose they came down for, return, and drive back to where they came from. People are going to drive to the DIA, then drive to Comerica Park and keep driving everywhere else they want to go because that is their mode of transportation and we’ve spent a lifetime catering to make Detroit the most car accessible city on the planet. This statement is most verifiable when you consider the fact that mass transit planning here in the last 30 years has amounted to little more than parking shuttles.

[j to the jeremy]

My point was that with such a short distance being built it will have such low usage nobody will want to build another line or extend this one.

For light rail to work it needs to start in a suburb or in a Detroit neighborhood very close to the border.

For me, if there were a rail line around Alter and Jefferson I would take it a lot. I would only ride the proposed stretch once to check it out.

So, let's put it out there this way.

If this 3 mile stretch is built how often would you ride it?

Agreed, but the hope is that this project will only be the first step in a large system. Although I do believe transit should serve the people of the city before it's used as an "attraction" to help a downtown look better. I guess I'm cautiously optimistic right now.

BTW, I would ride it, but not that often. I live near WSU but I would be more inclined to take rail up to 8 mile, Ferndale, etc. because that distance is far enough that a bus/walk trip is too long.

[ASR89]

As far as I know, the extension up to 8 Mile+ is also very likely to occur since the funding from part 1/M1 Rail can be used as the match for the federal money.

[drjeff]

I expect a lot of people in the WSU area will take it to and from downtown. I know I plan to.

[casscorridor]

I expect a lot of people in the WSU area will take it to and from downtown. I know I plan to.

I have been looking at an apartment on East Willis Street, at Woodward. If there is a light-rail station at Canfield I would defiantly take it every day. If the stations are spaced further apart, like at Mack or Warren, then I would probably rarely take it. I'm sure other area residents would agree. We need stations at Temple, Canfield and Palmer in addition to the ones at Mack and Warren. Probably the only thing that is better about the private plan is this aspect.

[exmotowner]

If the first line just goes to the boulaverd, I'm sure it will get extended to at least 8 mile. Just be happy you guys are at least "SUPPOSE" to get light rail, Transportion in Nashville sucks. We have one commuter line and of course that only runs in the morning and at night. The busses here are not dependable either. Just be happy you guys are getting something! Hell I might consider moving back if you get a good mass transit that is safe and dependable.

[Gsgeorge]

I have been looking at an apartment on East Willis Street, at Woodward. If there is a light-rail station at Canfield I would defiantly take it every day. If the stations are spaced further apart, like at Mack or Warren, then I would probably rarely take it. I'm sure other area residents would agree. We need stations at Temple, Canfield and Palmer in addition to the ones at Mack and Warren. Probably the only thing that is better about the private plan is this aspect.

Agreed! I too am looking at purchasing near one of the future rail stops. Property values would increase tremendously after the line is put in, especially if there are frequent stops like those listed above.

[stasu1213]

How is the rail going to run through Campus Martius. That loop is not wide enough for a track. It is barely wide enough for a car and a bus. The starting line is a Jefferson. It will go through Campus Martius up Woodward then to Midtown. Is Woodward in front of merchants row going to be widened again like it was before the narrowing of it?

[jsmyers]

I don't think CM is the best way to route the line [[I think Washington from GCP to Cobo would be better). But there is certainly enough room to run the trains through CM.

[stasu1213]

Ever since the private backer's hijacked this plan, I have started feeling worse and worse about the prospects of this project being successful.

Take for instance how it says the plan started with private funders than evolved into a private public partnership. They omit mentioning DTOGS which as been going on for much longer, yet put a picture of it, a picture of light-rail pulling up to the Warren southbound station in the middle of the street. Maybe it is because DTOGS cared to put time into making detailed pictures and diagrams of the stations. We really don't know what the first phase will even look like. The private investors have a fetish with secrecy and control. And their bud John Hertel has a vendeta against DDOT's plan. Plus, an incredible amount of support came from the state government for the private plan, even though DTOGS was going for years before, so it makes sense what is happening-- whatever the investors dictate.

I am very worried that when people drive into the city, they see that they can go much faster than the curbside streetcar, which WILL get stuck in traffic, because it is nothing more than a glorified bus, and think this is what the potential of transit is. The densest corridor in the state is served by a glorified bus. I know many have called this People Mover 2.0 but seriously a second people mover would be far superior to this joke. This can NOT be called mass transit. The only way we can call it mass is if there is a dedicated right of way [[aka lane), with traffic signal priority. And that is the minimum. Light-rail is barely mass transit even with these things.

Kiss goodbye any thoughts real mass transit, at least on the Woodward corridor between New Center and Jefferson.

If Dave Bing and GM have their way the train probably be more of an inconvenience to passengers they the passengers would want to get back into their cars. If Dave Bing and members of the common council keep kissing GM's a$$ Gm will have the last word on this mass transit in Detroit.

[professorscott]

How is the rail going to run through Campus Martius. That loop is not wide enough for a track. It is barely wide enough for a car and a bus. The starting line is a Jefferson. It will go through Campus Martius up Woodward then to Midtown. Is Woodward in front of merchants row going to be widened again like it was before the narrowing of it?

My suspicion is that the light rail line will avoid going directly through or past Campus Martius, perhaps by diverting a block or so to the west. This might make sense anyway because you can hit a couple hotels by doing so.

[Gsgeorge]

I found a proposed stations map, I am guessing this is NOT final but was happy to see stations at Ferry, Canfield, and Temple, in addition to Warren & Mack/MLK.

[Supersport]

Gsgeorge,

The DPM isn't a 1 mile loop as you stated. The DPM is actually approximately 3 miles in length, damn near the same as phase 1 of this M1 project. If built, this could be the beginning of phase II of the people, planned over 3 decades, though never materializing. DPM was to serve as the main loop, with lines running out all the spokes of the wagon wheel. Just build the damn thing, expand it to Pontiac, then start first phases on Jefferson, Gratiot, Grandriver, and Fort. Build it in phases so that Detroit can build in waves, with the center being downtown.

[RO_Resident]

If Dave Bing and GM have their way the train probably be more of an inconvenience to passengers they the passengers would want to get back into their cars. If Dave Bing and members of the common council keep kissing GM's a$$ Gm will have the last word on this mass transit in Detroit.

GM originally got the ball rolling for the project that has morphed into Ann Arbor to Detroit rail project.

[Gsgeorge]

Gsgeorge,

The DPM isn't a 1 mile loop as you stated. The DPM is actually approximately 3 miles in length, damn near the same as phase 1 of this M1 project. If built, this could be the beginning of phase II of the people, planned over 3 decades, though never materializing. DPM was to serve as the main loop, with lines running out all the spokes of the wagon wheel. Just build the damn thing, expand it to Pontiac, then start first phases on Jefferson, Gratiot, Grandriver, and Fort. Build it in phases so that Detroit can build in waves, with the center being downtown.

It would have been great to see the DPM system built out. But it won't be. Elevated rail is too expensive a solution for Detroit for going all the way to Pontiac or Macomb County. And my point was that M1 will be more effective than the DPM because it travels along a linear path, covering more area than the loop through downtown. It has been said that you could walk from Greektown to Cass & Michigan, two stations at opposite "ends" of the loop, faster than the DPM can take you there. This is probably true. It's not the case, however, when talking about walking from Foxtown to Wayne State. The M1 rail will serve countless more people than the DPM downtown loop simply because it travels a much longer linear distance, reaching into the neighborhoods instead of looping through some select areas of downtown.

[rbdetsport]

On that proposed station map, really the only stops that I am opposed to are the Wayne State, "Foxtown," and Congress stops. Not enough distance between those stops from others. Obviously after New Center, when the trains move faster, there will have to be more spread out stations. More like a stop in each neighborhood or major East/West roadway.

[Gsgeorge]

On that proposed station map, really the only stops that I am opposed to are the Wayne State, "Foxtown," and Congress stops. Not enough distance between those stops from others. Obviously after New Center, when the trains move faster, there will have to be more spread out stations. More like a stop in each neighborhood or major East/West roadway.

Congress and Foxtown [[or Grand Circus, one or the other) do seem redundant. I think the Ferry [["Wayne State") stop is a smart move. The Art Center neighborhood is growing rapidly, and the Woodward frontage of the district has a lot of untapped potential with the large vacant apartments near Showtime and other unused neighborhood structures.

It might also have to do with the branding. There could be a lot of big money interests pushing for a stop here-or-there. I would not be surprised to see a Wayne State sponsoring their own stop, a Kresge stop at the Cultural Center[[?), a Compuware stop at Campus Martius, an Olympia or Illitch stop at Foxtown.

[Gsgeorge]

An recent & interesting write-up on Detroit's mass transit efforts can be read here:

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...hurdles-ahead/

Via the Transport Politic. I think it misses the mark but raises some very pointed & direct questions about the feasibility & effectiveness of a Detroit light rail line.

[Detroitnerd]

An recent & interesting write-up on Detroit's mass transit efforts can be read here:

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...hurdles-ahead/

Via the Transport Politic. I think it misses the mark but raises some very pointed & direct questions about the feasibility & effectiveness of a Detroit light rail line.

I don't think he sounds super-informed about Detroit. Woodward BOULEVARD?

[jsmyers]

An recent & interesting write-up on Detroit's mass transit efforts can be read here:

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...hurdles-ahead/

Via the Transport Politic. I think it misses the mark but raises some very pointed & direct questions about the feasibility & effectiveness of a Detroit light rail line.

BTW, the comments from "Jason" are from me.

It seems to me that building M1 is perfectly congruent with efforts to "right size" the city and to increase jobs.

[Detroitnerd]

Actually, Yonah Freeman sounds pretty pessimistic about some light rail developments.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...-unfit-for-it/

and keen on improved bus service

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...ational-model/

A stalking horse for BRT?

[Gsgeorge]

BTW, the comments from "Jason" are from me.

It seems to me that building M1 is perfectly congruent with efforts to "right size" the city and to increase jobs.

Great responses, Jason, right on the money.

[stasu1213]

Maybe the lightrail could run underground. It could be built without any interruptions of weather or traffic. There are already staircasses that leads to underground parking. That could be used for the underground subway.

[Russix]

Maybe if we had a region that had some dedication to transit we would not be jeopardizing the longevity of this project by handing the levers over to a couple of rich people who up until its actually built will only smile and say “trust us”.