Millionaires fund Detroit light rail project

[Gistok]

Untrue!! Even the most unpopulated zip codes in Detroit are denser than the ones in say... Clinton Township [[the bastion of sprawl). The prairie like areas exist in a few places, but that is because city intentionally demolished it. Otherwise, it is usually just random blocks, or clusters of blocks. But not entire neighborhoods. And there is still housing scattered about and people living in these areas. I really don't think most people realize just how spread out things are in the burbs, especially the new burbs like Clinton. Intellectuals claim Detroit is overall a food desert. I won't argue with this. But do suburban residents really travel that much closer to get to a grocery store? I'd say the distance is comparable or even further [[depending on what places we are talking about). It seems like many of my suburb friends are always in their cars. And everything is so far. Grocery store two or three miles away. Mall five or six miles away. School ten miles away. Work twenty miles away. Things like this. This adds up. How much do I travel a day? I commute 1.5 miles to work Downtown, each way. I commute .5 miles to school, each way. And then probably another mile in there doing random stuff. I doubt I travel much more than five miles a day, that is, unless I go to the burbs. Then I might have traveled twenty, thirty plus miles. It simply isn't sustainable for everyone to keep living in this car dominated world. If everyone lived like the average American, we'd need five plus planets. So maybe one thing we can do is make our city denser and more compact, as in all of the metro region and make it so people don't have to travel much more than five or so miles in a day. I don't think this is conceivable in Clinton Township.

I'm not saying that some of the outer burbs are sprawling with low density populations. But you need to do your homework when it comes to chosing Clinton Township as an example. Large swaths of Clinton Township are floodplains for the Clinton River, thus unusable for any buildiing.

Clinton Twp. is the 8th most populated community in Michigan with over 95,000 residents on 28.2 sq. miles [[3,392 people per sq. mile). And most sections along the Clinton River flood plain have huge homes on large plots of land [[an acre or more). Although it only has 1 mall [[Partridge Creek), it is within 2 miles of 2 other malls [[Macomb and Lakeside). So no one in Clinton Township is farther than 4 miles from a mall.

One can hardly call Clinton Township unsustainable. It has some of the priciest homes in Macomb County [[the Villa di Fiore subdivision off of Millar Rd. has homes of 3,000-10,000 sq.ft.), so it has a huge tax base. Now granted some parts of Clinton Township are rather dumpy [[east of Gratiot), but it does have large commercial strips along Groesbeck, Gratiot and M-59.

[Detroitnerd]

One can hardly call Clinton Township unsustainable. It has some of the priciest homes in Macomb County [[the Villa di Fiore subdivision off of Millar Rd. has homes of 3,000-10,000 sq.ft.), so it has a huge tax base. Now granted some parts of Clinton Township are rather dumpy [[east of Gratiot), but it does have large commercial strips along Groesbeck, Gratiot and M-59.

You do know what "sustainable" means, yes?

[Gistok]

You do know what "sustainable" means, yes?

Yes I do...
http://www.yourdictionary.com/sustainable

But since you agree with nearly everything that casscorridor says... the question becomes... do you know what it means??

[tkelly1986]

Alright, then. Let's see some numbers, shall we? I see a lot of assumptions and assertions that deserve some documentation.

For what it's worth, DDOT is one of very few transit systems in the United States that is operated directly by a government body. The other one that comes to mind is San Francisco's Muni. The remainder of systems are operated by quasi-independent transit agencies.

A good start for numbers would be to read "Essays in Transportation Economics and Policy" by Gomez-Ibanez, Tye and Winston. Specifically chapters 2, 4 and 11. This outlines nicely the debate and brings in some imperial evidence to support the idea of contracting out transit [[chapter 11 specifically).

[Detroitnerd]

Yes I do...
http://www.yourdictionary.com/sustainable

But since you agree with nearly everything that casscorridor says... the question becomes... do you know what it means??

You seem to be describing likely tax revenues and the likely costs of providing services. In a very narrow sense, these figures describe whether an area can be sustained by a solvent government.

In the way we talk about whether a city is "sustainable" -- it means something different than that.

[MDoyle]

In San Francisco the MUNI street cars have dedicated and shared ROW at various points all over the city. There are even historic PCC's and Peter Witt's sharing the same track with modern multi cab Streetcars. It works just fine and the modern cars do pick up speed in the dedicated ROW areas. It's not a bad compromise. That said the SF transit system with BART and MUNI is sort of a mess.

[Russix]

GP: It is called GOCO [[government-owned, contractor-operated) and CAN be a successful mode of operation. The US Army Tank Plants [[Warren, MI and Lima, OH) were GOCO plants. The government owned the facility and machinery and the contractor [[Chrysler and later Gen Dynamics) operated the plants. The workers are on the contractor's payroll and not on the government payroll. Most of the ammunition plants in the US operated in this fashion.

Many bus systems and light rail systems in the US operate this way. The government invests in the infrastructure but doesn't have to add to its bureaucracy to run the system. If they want to delete routes, they aren't stuck with a massive labor and pension cost.

Is there any precedent of a private sector building a public work for a government to operate?

[Hermod]

Is there any precedent of a private sector building a public work for a government to operate?

Most transit systems were built by private enterprise then either taken over by the government or sold to the government.

[Russix]

Most transit systems were built by private enterprise then either taken over by the government or sold to the government.

Taken over usually after a failure or being bought out by a government entity. How many are crafted uniquely by a private enterprise for immediate operation by a government entity?

[professorscott]

Most transit systems were built by private enterprise then either taken over by the government or sold to the government.

...including the Detroit transit system of the late 19th and early 20th century.

[Hermod]

Taken over usually after a failure or being bought out by a government entity. How many are crafted uniquely by a private enterprise for immediate operation by a government entity?

They are all usually built by private contractors, but virtually all of the new ones are built using taxpayer money. I take it that this one will be a gift from these public spirited folks?

[Hermod]

...including the Detroit transit system of the late 19th and early 20th century.

Yes, for the city lines. The interurbans just went broke and were abandoned.

[PeachLaser]

Here are a couple of state-of-the-art trains from Germany. These are Seimans Velaro trains.

[leland_palmer]

How can you privatize something that's privately funded?

They managed to privatize British Rail, not really for the better though.

[FlyDTW]

^awesome post
I also like how the contract between the airport, the rental agencies and taxis prohibits SMART from even putting a map or sign in the airport to provide information for visitors on how to use any public transit out of the airport.

Wow. You can't make this stuff up.

Actually, Russix did make that up -- there is no such "contract" and the Airport Authority works closely with SMART. You'll find route maps and other SMART info at each of the Airport Information Booths, as well as a SMART stop conveniently located at each terminal.

[Detroitnerd]

Ah, yes. The old story about how transit systems were built by private companies then were bought by or sold to governments. That's an incomplete picture, though. They were profitable for years, until the government built roads and Ford sold autos. Then they couldn't compete with those subsidized forms of transportation. And who had the sort of capital to buy a them? Governments. You break it, you buy it.

[exmotowner]

I bet Matty Moron put in a few million too huh? LOL

[Hermod]

Ah, yes. The old story about how transit systems were built by private companies then were bought by or sold to governments. That's an incomplete picture, though. They were profitable for years, until the government built roads and Ford sold autos. Then they couldn't compete with those subsidized forms of transportation. And who had the sort of capital to buy a them? Governments. You break it, you buy it.

The city trolley systems were profitable, though not wildly profitable. The interurban industry was not profitable with many lines having a string of losses and other lines only marginally in the black. Hilton and Due, "The Electric Interurban in America" did a pretty good job of analyzing the economics.

[Russix]

Actually, Russix did make that up -- there is no such "contract" and the Airport Authority works closely with SMART. You'll find route maps and other SMART info at each of the Airport Information Booths, as well as a SMART stop conveniently located at each terminal.

I was repeating what I was told at the TRU Transit Conference a few weeks ago. Luckily for you I frequently work next to the airport and will be happy to verify your claim, FlyDTW. And by the way, Welcome to DetroitYes!

[MIWP]

I live on the east side of Detroit between Detroit City Airport and Harpos but work at UM Dearborn, I take two buses to get to and from work everyday which equals near four hours of travel a day and now $4.50 USD in bus fare a day. It would be nice to have a car but the cost of gas,insurance,upkeep,and pollution...Is having a car in a city worth it? Better transit would help many others who live in the city but work in the burbs, it would help cut down on road repair, pollution, traffic, and car crashes.

[ASR89]

http://www.freep.com/article/2010021...ward-rail-plan

25 million bucks for the Woody!

[mogo]

http://www.freep.com/article/2010021...ward-rail-plan

25 million bucks for the Woody!

Can someone clarify this for me? Phase 1 is estimated to cost $125 mil. Illich/Penske/Karmanos have put up $125 mil [[according to CNNMoney). The fed is throwing in $25 mil [[according to the freep article). Did the fed throw some in before too? How much do we have now?

[BShea]

I've been out of the country, so I'm late to the party here. Allow me to add what I know:

1. Lansing already approved legislation for a public authority to run the M1 portion of the Woodward rail project. The private backers have said they will turn over control of the system to the public authority when the system is ready to run. The legislation also includes a basic funding structure, but a lot of the money details are yet to be sorted out now that DTOG is sort of part of this thing. So, a public entity will govern the system, but a private company could still run it day-to-day operations. Or maybe the authority will simply do that. We'll see.

2. The Woodward rail line is meant to be a slower line because it's in the area with the most stops for attractions, etc. It was meant from the beginning to feed into a faster rail line on Woodward, and also link into Hertel's plan of buses and other train lines [[A2-Detroit, Wally, etc). It's one part of a wider plan. As the prof said, it will take money and political will to make that wider plan happen.

[Rocko]

When the trains do start running down Woodward [[which will happen), I believe the plan is to supplement the rail service with local DDOT coaches making regular curbside stops every couple blocks as they currently do, but on a less frequent frequency. Hopefully, this will allow DDOT to redistribute both the coaches and drivers which used to run the Woodward #53 route to other routes around the city, partially undoing all of the cuts which were enacted in 2009. The Jefferson East route is among the ones that come to mind that would probably benefit from added frequencies and reduced headway between coaches, along with the Crosstown route.

Sidebar, here's the story on the $25 million from the Detroit News:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...-rail-corridor

[leland_palmer]

I haven't had a chance to really read this yet, but I just discovered the 1915 Report on Detroit street railway traffic and proposed subway.

http://books.google.com/books?id=puk...ectory&f=false