Bob Bobb is at it again

[pffft]

If "gaffs" -- it's gaffes -- and grammar stumbles aren't taken seriously by teachers, what hope do we have?

[Detwa]

My ex-husband is a product of DPS, and he's in his 40s, and he's about as illiterate as....I don't know what. He sent me a text the other day asking me what I was doing for "valintimes day". I kid you not. I had no idea he was that dumb when I married him, silly me.

Even though the focus is on DPS, social promotion happens everywhere. I have another childhood friend who is now a Pontiac school teacher. Got an email from him that I don't want to quote verbatim because he might read here, but it started out with "Hay, glad to here from you" and went on to note how long it had been "sense" we'd spoken. And did I mention that he TEACHES now?

I don't know what the solution is, but I believe there should be some type of placement test that students should take before they move to the next grade, with a fair minimum passing score. Of course, not everyone is going to be an ace speller or a math whiz - Lord knows that I have never mastered algebra and it still gives me the willies, and I hold a graduate degree. But students should at least be operating at an average level before moving on each year, and definitely before graduating.

[jcole]

So, you're telling me they're [[ private colleges) giving out scholarships to kids who graduate with no reading or writing skills. I find that difficult to believe, I'd like to know which schools your associate is referring to.

U of M, MSU, anywhere that they give out sports scholarships.

[Blueidone]

My grandchildren attend suburban schools. I was appalled to learn that once they reach high school, most of the teachers do not mark papers down for poor grammer, spelling or punctuation, except in an English class. These kids are taught complicated math, algebra, geometry, etc., but are not pushed to learn the English language. They text so much, that they have learned to "spell" in shorthand or phonetically.

Also, I have known several people who are or were teachers who cannot write intelligently. Their spelling is terrible and their grammar is worse. One woman I used to work with [[who was working then as an administrative assistant) claimed to be a junior high or middle school teacher just prior to getting this job. As I came to know her, it was very evident that she could not pass a 7th grade spelling test.

I'm not sure who developed all these new curricula since I was in school, but in my humble opinion, they have caused the "dumbing-down" of our children.

[DetroitTeacher]

I actually read "LOL" in a research paper. I about fell out of my chair. The student got a zero on that one [[I gave him an opportunity to rewrite). I have a list of all of the "do nots" for research papers...using "I, you, we, us, my," for example. I have added any type of text-ese to that list, as well. I offer to proofread prior to the students handing in the final draft. Most kids take me up on the offer.

As an added note...many of my seniors ask me to proofread their college essays and resumes. Many former students email me their college papers to proofread. I have many colleagues who can't spell [[or write something logical) and are too embarassed to ask someone to proofread.

[Zacha341]

Hah--my bad! Gaffes vs. Gaffs. Right on!

If "gaffs" -- it's gaffes -- and grammar stumbles aren't taken seriously by teachers, what hope do we have?

[Zacha341]

Argh! LOL in a research paper. It was bad enough when I had to get after my daughter about using contractions instead of whole words. Now we have all the "texting" fragments and lower case proper pronouns in papers etc. A read thru some of the "comments" on sites like youtube speak to how badly people write... even the most basic of sentences. Sad!

I actually read "LOL" in a research paper. I about fell out of my chair. The student got a zero on that one [[I gave him an opportunity to rewrite). I have a list of all of the "do nots" for research papers...using "I, you, we, us, my," for example. I have added any type of text-ese to that list, as well. I offer to proofread prior to the students handing in the final draft. Most kids take me up on the offer.

As an added note...many of my seniors ask me to proofread their college essays and resumes. Many former students email me their college papers to proofread. I have many colleagues who can't spell [[or write something logical) and are too embarassed to ask someone to proofread.

[pffft]

This is all why spelling/grammatical mistakes can't be shrugged off with "oh, I mistyped"...math teachers wouldn't shrug off addition or subtraction errors.

It really is a bad road we've gone down. Forget testing students for this, there is a need to test teachers for basic grammar skills before giving out a certificate to teach English.

[Hermod]

lower case proper pronouns

It has been almost fifty years since I was last in a college English class. I remember common and proper nouns, but what in pluperfect hell is a "proper pronoun"?

[Zacha341]

I think that means places and first names... my grammar rules are rusty but I know the kids use lower-case "i". And other proper names and what all like
"detroit" on a resume.

It has been almost fifty years since I was last in a college English class. I remember common and proper nouns, but what in pluperfect hell is a "proper pronoun"?

[pffft]

I think that means places and first names... my grammar rules are rusty but I know the kids use lower-case "i". And other proper names and what all like
"detroit" on a resume.

Dude no...

Pronouns are not proper or improper, and they stand in for nouns, so a pronoun is "we" "I" "they" etc. Pronouns are NOT names like "Detroit"...

[dookie joe]

If school officials weren't constantly ripping off and/or misappropriating my tax money which is supposed to be going toward the schools, there just might be the funding to hire extra tutors, etc. so we woudln't be in this mess.

[Zacha341]

Uh, I am not a dude .

Thanks for the clarification. Got it. In any event the kids are using to many lower case letters to start sentences and for words like "Detroit"... and other pronouns etc. They just don't even get the basic proper use of grammar. A great deal of this is due to the fact that they are not reading. I mean really reading [[books), not just more poor grammar from facebook peers and youtube.com

Dude no...

Pronouns are not proper or improper, and they stand in for nouns, so a pronoun is "we" "I" "they" etc. Pronouns are NOT names like "Detroit"...

[firstandten]

Two questions maybe some of the educators who frequent this board can help me with.

While the ban on social promotions is good and long overdue, how will this be executed. Will the teachers teach to whatever test is devised to determine if a child should be promoted to the next grade ? So I guess my real question is why so many educators are against teaching to a test. It would seem that the students are still learning the information needed to go to the next grade. Evidently there must be big problems using that method.

Also, I know that coming up as students we use to drill, drill, drill on times tables, words etc using flash cards and other media. I get the sense students don't do that as much now days. I am right or is it just me going thru a "back in the day" moment.

[sumas]

I can laugh at myself for words spelled incorrectly while bemoaning our childrens's lack of education.

My only excuse is I usually post in the early AM hours when I can't sleep. Most errors are typos. Posts here are not resumes. Those I would spell check.

The private college I referred to was Baker college. I will restate for the record, if kids can't read or write why are they bothering to try to attend? Why should a college try to bring a kid or adult for that matter, up to speed? Some of these kids are dedicated to try to pull themselves up, but most ...not!

I do not mean to be mean. It just seems silly.

I would like to restate that I admire DPS teachers. It takes a strong person. Poverty is no joke and the kids they are teaching suffer. It is like they are at the forefront of a battle and I give all those teachers kudos!

[DetroitTeacher]

An ideal test should cover the benchmarks already in the curriculum. The curriculum should not be designed for the test. Teachers shouldn't have to teach to the test, the test sould be designed to test what should have been taught. A student should be able to pass any test that is designed to test the benchmarks. Current tests do not do this. Benchmarks are what the student should have mastered in that grade. Benchmarks, for example, would be "identify pronouns" and "identify proper nouns". Pronouns are not capitalized unless they begin a sentence [[with the exception of "I"). Proper nouns are always capitalized.

You can find the benchmarks for each grade by going to www.michigan.gov/mde, look under Curriculum and Instruction, then go to Grade Level Content Expectations [[for lower grades) and Michigan Content Expectations [[for upper grades). They break them down by subject. Keep in mind that special needs students must also learn ALL of the benchmarks and have the same curriculum as the general education population.

I really think teach and drill works for most things. They should really bring that back. Much of what "worked for us" should be brought back [[such as phonics). My stance is, if it ain't broke don't fix it. What education is doing now isn't working, perhaps they need to go back in time and look at what worked.

[Detwa]

I can laugh at myself for words spelled incorrectly while bemoaning our childrens's lack of education.

My only excuse is I usually post in the early AM hours when I can't sleep. Most errors are typos. Posts here are not resumes. Those I would spell check.

Don't worry about it, sumas. Clearly, this is a message board, as you said, not a resume or a dissertation. Its obvious when someone has made a simple typo or slip of the finger/brain connection [[lol) or when someone is really illiterate. Some people just live to sit on message boards and play Grammar Police, it makes their life happy, let them enjoy.

The private college I referred to was Baker college. I will restate for the record, if kids can't read or write why are they bothering to try to attend? Why should a college try to bring a kid or adult for that matter, up to speed? Some of these kids are dedicated to try to pull themselves up, but most ...not!

I've taken classes at Baker and had a few classmates who didn't communicate much better than my junior high schooler. One girl sticks out in my mind, she was absolutely horrible at writing and spelling, I thought she was joking around, but she never changed throughout the entire semester. It was shocking, I wondered how did they make it out of high school, much less, into college. I know that Baker gives placement tests, but if you score low, it just dictates that you take a few prep classes before you can take your regular classes. They aren't going to turn down your money. Maybe they aren't allowed to turn anyone down?

[LodgeDodger]

Robert Bobb is the best thing that's happened to Detroit Public Schools in decades.

[Zacha341]

Welcome to community college... where that is a big issue. Your SAT score to get into a community college can be marginal and as you state if you test low they just send you to a prep class or two and you are in. Many of the remedial reading and math classes are bursting at the seams. But some students really do buckle down and recapture what they obviously missed in high school... but for some college is a continuation of high school [[some where to meet people and have fun!).

....I wondered how did they make it out of high school, much less, into college. I know that Baker gives placement tests, but if you score low, it just dictates that you take a few prep classes before you can take your regular classes. They aren't going to turn down your money. Maybe they aren't allowed to turn anyone down?

[softailrider]

U of M, MSU, anywhere that they give out sports scholarships.

I still find it very hard to believe that U of M or MSU is going to give a scholarship to a kid who cannot read or write - If the kid is just a dumbshit with some basic skills then I suppose I could understand. I guess maybe it's happened in the past. can't believe it's a common occurence.

[sirrealone]

Robert Bobb is the best thing that's happened to Detroit Public Schools in decades.

I agree. Here's someone that's promising needed change and actually following through.

[DetroitTeacher]

I did fail to mention that DPS does NOT follow state guidelines. For instance, a novel that the state says students should be reading in 9th grade [[To Kill A Mockingbird, for example) DPS has them reading that in 11th grade [[and not the novel, DPS has kids reading the screenplay). It would be nice if DPS actually HAD novels for the kids to read but we don't have enough for each student to get a copy. We have to read them in class, which doesn't do much for urging the kids to read.

[pffft]

As long as the attitude is that only the "Grammar Police" care about using proper English when communicating -- why should kids be expected to care?

That's exactly what's led to the lowering of standards at DPS and other places.

When people read, they make fewer grammatical and spelling errors, it's easy to see who reads and who doesn't. Anything that gets DPS kids reading is a great thing.

[sumas]

I agree Mr. Bobb sure looks like a winner.

Loved what Detroitteacher had to say too. Detroit once was a stellar school system. We need to revisit what we did right. We have good teachers but their hands are tied by the system that exists. Supplies, executive support all contribute to a good education. It wouldn't hurt if parents taught their children to be respectful.

My oldest son attended a small religious school for a time. They had to memorize extensive bible verses even in first grade. To this day he has excellent memory recall. I wonder if that rote memorization had something to do with it.

I had planned on volunteering as a mentor but my church decided to do an after school program for K through 8. So I changed my focus. Will mentor, help with homework etc. just not in the public school. Really do want our children to have a love for learning.

[Detwa]

As long as the attitude is that only the "Grammar Police" care about using proper English when communicating -- why should kids be expected to care?

That's exactly what's led to the lowering of standards at DPS and other places.

Like I said, some people just look for anything to make themselves feel better, for some, the highlight of their day is nitpicking people on a message board for making occasional typos. That's why most discussion derails into a display of who can point out the most errors and belittle your original post, rather than actually staying on topic. It's really childish and says a lot more about the person trying to correct you, than it does the poster. Clearly, sumas is one of the more intelligent and educated members here, so why derail the conversation to point out an irrelevant slip? If that same amount of message board passion was shown to the DPS students, perhaps this wouldn't even be an issue.