"Golden Triangle" a golden joke?

[Hermod]

Wouldn't that be a lousy experiment though? You'd have it all stacked against you. Even Amtrak doesn't have priority on those lines, let alone some new authority. When did they end that commuter train, 1983?

How many freight trains a day use those lines? You could double track them and move a lot of trains. Tri-Rail here in Florida works its way around CSX and AMTRAK. Tri-Rail's problem is that it has the worst income/expense ratio of any of the US mass transit rail lines.

SEMTA ended the Pontiac-Detroit commuter trains when they got tired of eating the expenses.

[ghettopalmetto]

The whole purpose of transit is to transport people between nodes of activity. Due to the automobile, those nodes have gravitated toward the interstate/freeway system, why reinvent the wheel?

And for my money, I would prefer electrified bus lines. They existed here once.

Do we need to retread the discussion that the status quo is literally killing the economy of Southeastern Michigan? It's not the 1950s anymore. Evolve or die.

I would argue that the outer reaches of Metropolitan Detroit have no nodes at all, but rather an amorphous mess of houses and buildings strewn scattershot all over an overbuilt network of roadways.

[Stosh]

Do we need to retread the discussion that the status quo is literally killing the economy of Southeastern Michigan? It's not the 1950s anymore. Evolve or die.

I would argue that the outer reaches of Metropolitan Detroit have no nodes at all, but rather an amorphous mess of houses and buildings strewn scattershot all over an overbuilt network of roadways.

And one could also argue that Detroit proper, in sections, is the same principle.
What is the difference?

[Detroitnerd]

How many freight trains a day use those lines? You could double track them and move a lot of trains. Tri-Rail here in Florida works its way around CSX and AMTRAK. Tri-Rail's problem is that it has the worst income/expense ratio of any of the US mass transit rail lines.

SEMTA ended the Pontiac-Detroit commuter trains when they got tired of eating the expenses.

Double-tracking would be a good solution for commuter service. But, in my opinion, that's probably not the right place to begin. It would be great to do, but not until light rail connects to that glorified Amshack at Baltimore and Woodward. And give it some time to get some transit-oriented development going in the area, that way there'll be more reason to expand service from Royal Oak and Birmingham/Troy to mid-city and downtown. Then it might be a better bet.

[bailey]

Do we need to retread the discussion that the status quo is literally killing the economy of Southeastern Michigan? It's not the 1950s anymore. Evolve or die.
.

You're right it's not the 1950s anymore. Detroit is less than half the size it was then. If we agree that about 20% of the regions [[SeM) inhabitants live in Detroit proper...which is pretty much a given..right? Isn't catering a transit system that depends upon the central node being the place where the fewest people live and work a bad idea?

[Hermod]

Do we need to retread the discussion that the status quo is literally killing the economy of Southeastern Michigan? It's not the 1950s anymore. Evolve or die.

I would argue that the outer reaches of Metropolitan Detroit have no nodes at all, but rather an amorphous mess of houses and buildings strewn scattershot all over an overbuilt network of roadways.

The network of roadways existed back in 1950. They have just been paved and widened as the traffic load increased. I can remember when Yorkshire and Grayton in the city were gravel roads.

The only new roads in the counties are the limited access roads built to bypass bottlenecks. The section line roads have always been there.

[ghettopalmetto]

Yeah, those 900,000 people in the city limits don't count. They don't need to get to jobs. They don't need to shop. Fuck them. Fuck the people in Dearborn, Royal Oak, Ferndale, and Birmingham too. Everything in Detroit is just fine. That is, once we spend a billion dollars on pretty buses, and run them through locations where no one will ride transit anyway.

Hermod, are you contending that the Lodge, I-94, I-96, I-75, the Southfield, I-275, and I-696 already existed in 1950?

[Detroitnerd]

You're right it's not the 1950s anymore. Detroit is less than half the size it was then. If we agree that about 20% of the regions [[SeM) inhabitants live in Detroit proper...which is pretty much a given..right? Isn't catering a transit system that depends upon the central node being the place where the fewest people live and work a bad idea?

Well, the same could have been said about the building of expressways and freeways in the 1960s. Was it such a hot idea to build massive, elevated expressways that corkscrewed through beet fields? Was that a bad idea?

Nobody here has a crystal ball, but with fuel prices as volatile as they are, with most of the reserves of crude oil and natural gas located elsewhere, with dwindling subsidies for roads, chances are pretty good we simply cannot afford to maintain what we have built here. Now would be a good time to begin building mass transit that better promotes density and serves areas that are denser, consume fewer resources and promote walkability and bikability.

The best places to build the kind of light-rail-on-thoroughfare, feeder-buses-on-side-roads transit network is where there is density, or the possibility for density. You can't serve a place like Macomb Township with light rail. But you can put it on Woodward for sure. [[Would you say "nobody" lives in Birmingham? Its downtown was based on the streetcar running through. Same with Royal Oak.)

And, people will shift where they live over time. People do follow amenities. People, especially young people, appreciate dense environments. That's a major factor in why when a young metro Detroiter wants to live in a dense, walkable environment with amenities, they move.

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah, those 900,000 people in the city limits don't count. They don't need to get to jobs. They don't need to shop. Fuck them. Fuck the people in Dearborn, Royal Oak, Ferndale, and Birmingham too. Everything in Detroit is just fine. That is, once we spend a billion dollars on pretty buses, and run them through locations where no one will ride transit anyway.

Hermod, are you contending that the Lodge, I-94, I-96, I-75, the Southfield, I-275, and I-696 already existed in 1950?

In 1950, I think you had Davison and sections of the Lodge, but prolly not much more than that.

[Bearinabox]

You're right it's not the 1950s anymore. Detroit is less than half the size it was then. If we agree that about 20% of the regions [[SeM) inhabitants live in Detroit proper...which is pretty much a given..right? Isn't catering a transit system that depends upon the central node being the place where the fewest people live and work a bad idea?

What do you mean, "the fewest people?" Pontiac has something like 65,000 residents. Utica has maybe 5,000. Shelby and Macomb townships have around 70,000 apiece, Rochester Hills a little less than that, Sterling Heights has maybe 120,000, Clinton Twp. is around 100,000. Auburn Hills has 20,000. Altogether that's slightly north of half a million people [[not to mention that M-59 runs right along the border of a lot of these communities, not through them; use 19 or 21 Mile and the numbers are cut in half). If we're going by population of adjacent communities as a proportion of the metro area population [[your metric, not mine), which is a better investment: M-59 from Woodward to Gratiot, or a line entirely within Detroit proper?

[bailey]

Yeah, those 900,000 people in the city limits don't count. They don't need to get to jobs. They don't need to shop. Fuck them. Fuck the people in Dearborn, Royal Oak, Ferndale, and Birmingham too. Everything in Detroit is just fine. That is, once we spend a billion dollars on pretty buses, and run them through locations where no one will ride transit anyway.

I didn't say they didn't count at all, you seem to be saying they should count more than anyone else, regardless of the realities of where the majority of the population lives and needs to get to. You're the one saying we should get out of the 1950s and recognize the status quo has changed, yet you continually advocate designing a transit system built for a Detroit of the 1950s and not of today. Heck, as noted in the other thread about office vacancy, there is more VACANT space in the suburbs than there is office space in the CBD.

[bailey]

What do you mean, "the fewest people?" Pontiac has something like 65,000 residents. Utica has maybe 5,000. Shelby and Macomb townships have around 70,000 apiece, Rochester Hills a little less than that, Sterling Heights has maybe 120,000, Clinton Twp. is around 100,000. Auburn Hills has 20,000. Altogether that's slightly north of half a million people [[not to mention that M-59 runs right along the border of a lot of these communities, not through them; use 19 or 21 Mile and the numbers are cut in half). If we're going by population of adjacent communities as a proportion of the metro area population [[your metric, not mine), which is a better investment: M-59 from Woodward to Gratiot, or a line entirely within Detroit proper?

I'm talking about the 4.5 million that live in what is commonly described as "metro detroit" and the overall design of a transit system that this "region" is going to have to pay for.

[Detroitnerd]

What do you mean, "the fewest people?" Pontiac has something like 65,000 residents. Utica has maybe 5,000. Shelby and Macomb townships have around 70,000 apiece, Rochester Hills a little less than that, Sterling Heights has maybe 120,000, Clinton Twp. is around 100,000. Auburn Hills has 20,000. Altogether that's slightly north of half a million people [[not to mention that M-59 runs right along the border of a lot of these communities, not through them; use 19 or 21 Mile and the numbers are cut in half). If we're going by population of adjacent communities as a proportion of the metro area population [[your metric, not mine), which is a better investment: M-59 from Woodward to Gratiot, or a line entirely within Detroit proper?

I remember DeRoche was saying something like this, though he was using that sort of Republican "code language" where "people" mean "Republicans" and non-Republicans do not have personhood.

“We need to build roads where people live, work and pay their taxes,� instead of “fixing roads where people used to live, or where we want them to live.�

Haha. Then he wanted to have "public" hearings on the matter, suggesting they take place in Canton, Brighton, Waterford, Cadillac, Grand Rapids and Port Huron. You gotta love those balls ...

[ghettopalmetto]

I didn't say they didn't count at all, you seem to be saying they should count more than anyone else, regardless of the realities of where the majority of the population lives and needs to get to. You're the one saying we should get out of the 1950s and recognize the status quo has changed, yet you continually advocate designing a transit system built for a Detroit of the 1950s and not of today. Heck, as noted in the other thread about office vacancy, there is more VACANT space in the suburbs than there is office space in the CBD.

Where do you propose a transit system be built, then? In the middle of cornfields?

A transit system for Detroit needs to serve the following primary functions:

1. Connect people within the City of Detroit--300,000 of whom have no access to a private automobile--with jobs, stores, and services in the suburbs.

2. Improve existing bus service and increase the reliability of the entire transit network, which exists primarily within the City of Detroit.

3. Reduce operating costs and travel times by shifting mode choice over long distances to rail [[vis-a-vis bus).

4. Provide a car-less mode of travel into densely-populated areas so that intensity of land-use can be increased. For example, 2/3 of the land in downtown Detroit is devoted to automobile use, i.e. does not generate tax revenue.

5. Provide a reliable alternative to the private automobile for those who choose not to drive.

What, in your opinion, does "a 2010 transit system" look like? Do you really think that people who live in areas designed for automobile travel are going to embrace buses?

[Bearinabox]

I'm talking about the 4.5 million that live in what is commonly described as "metro detroit" and the overall design of a transit system that this "region" is going to have to pay for.

So you're saying that Detroit has the fewest residents of any part of the metro area?

[Hermod]

Yeah, those 900,000 people in the city limits don't count. They don't need to get to jobs. They don't need to shop. Fuck them. Fuck the people in Dearborn, Royal Oak, Ferndale, and Birmingham too. Everything in Detroit is just fine. That is, once we spend a billion dollars on pretty buses, and run them through locations where no one will ride transit anyway.

Hermod, are you contending that the Lodge, I-94, I-96, I-75, the Southfield, I-275, and I-696 already existed in 1950?

No, I am saying that the basic network, the square grid of section line roads, existed in 1950. That is still the backbone of transport in the suburbs. Hall Road existed in 1950. The roads that you mention were built for the same reason that Detroit built the Davidson, the Lodge, and the Ford to eliminate bottlenecks. Suburbia was expanding before I-94 or I-75 reached 8-mile, The subdivision were going into Troy in 1959 when I worked for the city and none of the limited access roads had been built.

[Hermod]

Detroit had planned the municipal Detroit freeway system before the interstate highway act was conceived. They tied the system into the interstate system so that they could benefit from the interstate money. I-94, I-75, and I-96 were built out of Detroit as a part of the interstate network [[i.e. to travel from one city to another). Throughout the US, they have had the unintended consequence of making iot easier to live in the suburb. M-275 was built as a "Detroit bypass". Only I-696, M59, and M53 were built specifically to deal with suburban traffic problems.

[rbdetsport]

Sterling Heights is the 3rd largest city in the state. This line would run right on the north border.

[ghettopalmetto]

Sterling Heights is the 3rd largest city in the state. This line would run right on the north border.

And how many Sterling Heights residents will be able or willing to walk to a bus stop on Hall Road?

[jcole]

And how many Sterling Heights residents will be able or willing to walk to a bus stop on Hall Road?

Ever hear of a Park and Ride? They use those a lot in Greater Chicago, Boston and Denver among many other cities with mass transit.

[ghettopalmetto]

Ever hear of a Park and Ride? They use those a lot in Greater Chicago, Boston and Denver among many other cities with mass transit.

So a Sterling Heights resident is going to drive 5 miles to a bus stop on Hall Road, ride the bus down the road a couple more miles, and then walk at least 1/2 mile to their destination in an environment completely inhospitable to pedestrians?

Yeah, that's worth 300 million bucks.

[Bearinabox]

Ever hear of a Park and Ride? They use those a lot in Greater Chicago, Boston and Denver among many other cities with mass transit.

To sum up: the idea that someone who lives at, say, 15 and Mound would be perfectly willing to drive to Mound and M-59, park, ride a bus to, say, 59 and Romeo Plank, and then walk across thirty acres of parking to a destination is eminently reasonable to the point of being self-evident, while the idea that someone who lives at, say, 13 and Coolidge might drive to the Fairgrounds, park, and ride a light rail line downtown is utterly preposterous.

[Hermod]

To sum up: the idea that someone who lives at, say, 15 and Mound would be perfectly willing to drive to Mound and M-59, park, ride a bus to, say, 59 and Romeo Plank, and then walk across thirty acres of parking to a destination is eminently reasonable to the point of being self-evident, while the idea that someone who lives at, say, 13 and Coolidge might drive to the Fairgrounds, park, and ride a light rail line downtown is utterly preposterous.

How many people that live at 13th and Coolidge work downtown?

[Stosh]

To sum up: the idea that someone who lives at, say, 15 and Mound would be perfectly willing to drive to Mound and M-59, park, ride a bus to, say, 59 and Romeo Plank, and then walk across thirty acres of parking to a destination is eminently reasonable to the point of being self-evident, while the idea that someone who lives at, say, 13 and Coolidge might drive to the Fairgrounds, park, and ride a light rail line downtown is utterly preposterous.

A little clarification would be nice here. Sarcasm isn't quite evident on a message board.

[Bearinabox]

A little clarification would be nice here. Sarcasm isn't quite evident on a message board.

A lot of people on here have suggested that a park and ride lot at the Fairgrounds would never attract suburban riders to a Woodward rail line. Usually the rationale goes something like "once you're in your car, why not just keep going?"

I guess most people aren't aware that SMART already operates several park-and-ride routes [[explicitly designated as such) that serve downtown commuters from the northwestern and downriver suburbs, and nobody seems to have trouble with those. Except apparently those routes don't really exist because Hermod says nobody actually works downtown anymore...sorry, I'm being sarcastic again, aren't I? Hard to resist sometimes.