Original cost of the Ren Cen? Present day value?...

[Gistok]

The RenCen was completed in 1977 at a cost of $250 million. Later the 2 additional Phase 2 towers cost an additional $70 million for a total price of $320 million.

It is correct that Henry Ford II armtwisted many corporations into participating in the project [[there were 51 corporations that were co-owners). It is also true that the 2.2 million square ft. of space that Phase I put on the market all at once in 1977 had a negative impact on the downtown real estate market for many years [[glut). Manufacturers Bank moved into much of Tower 400, and emptied out 411 W. Fort. When Comerica and Manufacturers merged, that empied out the 211 W. Fort tower with the combined company moving to Tower 400 of RenCen.

The one good thing that happened was that Ford moved nearly 2,000 employees downtown to Tower 200.

So there were something like 10,000 workers in the RenCen [[Phase 1).

Well then when GM bought the RenCen back in 1995, they gradually emptied out the existing 10,000 tenants of Phase 1, and moved their people into the complex. Ford took the 1,700 employees they still had in Tower 200 and moved them out to Dearborn. Some other tenants evicted by GM also exited to the suburbs.

So now with GM downsized... there are 5,000 GM employees in the complex.

Highgate Corp. bought the RenCen for $75 million in the mid 1990s from the original corporate partnership, and then flipped the property to GM right away for $78 million. GM then spent an additional $500 million on it to add the Wintergarten and other improvements.

[One Shot]

Well at any cost can anyone picture downtown without it? I always remember the Ren Cen as the symbol of downtown Detroit! I know someones gonna have something to say about this too.

[spiritofdetroit]

DetroitDad,

First, it's Ernst & Young.

Second, 2 of the 4 tenants in the building came from the suburbs.

[stasu1213]

Maybe the Master Plan was to tear down the older building such as the Penobscott, Buhl, and the Ford and move all of the offices into the RenCen. The spaces left from the once existing buildings would had been used for something else.

[EastSider]

You can't really use last year as a measuring stick for valuing the Ren Cen. First of all, GM was teetering on an impending bankruptcy so nobody was gonna lease-back anything to them -- even on a good day. Second, the credit markets were frozen solid, so no one could get money to buy the place even if they wanted. Third, the national commercial real-estate market has still yet to bottom out, and last year the fall was just getting going [[it lagged the residential real-estate drop by a year or so).

None of what you typed means that the price of the RenCen is going up now or anytime in the near future.

[missn]

I am in the minority here, but I love the RenCen. I was young when it was going up, and I followed the progress carefully. Detroit's downfall is too complex to blame on a single factor. If things had been different socially, the RenCen might have been the catalyst it was intended to be.

I like its clean lines and distinctive look, which complement, and help balance the skyline when viewed from Windsor. Like SF's Transamerica Tower it makes the skyline unique, and not just another collection of boxes.

[Gistok]

Maybe the Master Plan was to tear down the older building such as the Penobscott, Buhl, and the Ford and move all of the offices into the RenCen. The spaces left from the once existing buildings would had been used for something else.

No there was no master plan to do away with any older buildings. Many of these buildings were still mostly occupied, and the thought of destroying the financial district along Griswold St. would have made little sense to rejuvenating downtown.

Jerry Luptak and Harold Beznos [[of Beztak Corp.) owned the Buhl Building at the time, and I know there was never any plan for their building to taken from them or razed [[especially since they're lawyers! ). Although eventually by the 1990s [[when more new office buildings came online downtown) they did walk away from the Buhl Building, leaving it to the lender.

The tenant musical chairs that was playing out with the building of the Ren Cen was further exacerbated with the 2 additional RenCen Towers 500 & 600, as well as John Madden's 150 West Jefferson Building, and Gerald Hines One Detroit Center [[currently Comerica Tower, but not for much longer).

John Madden [[developer from Denver Colorado) was going to build an even taller tower that would have risen out of the [[planned) shell of the firehouse across from Cobo. He was planning on saving the skin of the building, and have a new tower rising within its' shell as well as soaring above that shell. That plan [[tentatively called "Firehouse Square") went nowhere with the soft office market of the 1990s. Also, when 150 West Jefferson was first built, the foundations of the part of that structure behind the Roney Building [[to the left of the Financial Center People Mover Station) were strengthened to build another smaller tower on that corner of the block. Again, that went nowhere as well.

Another plan that never came to fruition was by Houston developer Gerald Hines. He had originally planned on a twin tower of his One Detroit Center [[to be called Two Detroit Center) on the portion of the block facing the Millender Center. Again the soft office market ended that idea, and another parking structure [[2nd one on that large block) was built instead.

With these new buildings coming online in a soft downtown office market, was it any wonder that plans for the Hudsons Building never got off the ground?

[Gistok]

Almost forgot... the new office towers that were built in the 1990s [[150 West Jefferson and One Detroit Center) got huge subsidies [[taxpayer money). The One Detroit Center project got $25 million in UDAG [[Urban Development Action Grants) as well as other monies [[DDA/DEGC).

Mayor Young was subsidizing these new towers at the expense [[tenant wise) of the older downtown office buildings.

[iheartthed]

None of what you typed means that the price of the RenCen is going up now or anytime in the near future.

Nor was anything I said meant to imply that.

[mikeg19]

Does anybody know the approximate capacity of workers that the Ren Cen can hold?

Some of you may not like the Ren Cen, and growing up I never really liked it either. It's just so bland compared to buildings like the MCS, Book Cadillac, and Guardian. But I kind of equate it to the World Trade Center when it was built. Everybody hated it, but over time it grew on people and it became the symbol of New York, as did the Ren Cen for Detroit. By no means is it one of my favorite buildings downtown, but I've learned to like it.

[stasu1213]

No there was no master plan to do away with any older buildings. Many of these buildings were still mostly occupied, and the thought of destroying the financial district along Griswold St. would have made little sense to rejuvenating downtown.

Jerry Luptak and Harold Beznos [[of Beztak Corp.) owned the Buhl Building at the time, and I know there was never any plan for their building to taken from them or razed [[especially since they're lawyers! ). Although eventually by the 1990s [[when more new office buildings came online downtown) they did walk away from the Buhl Building, leaving it to the lender.

The tenant musical chairs that was playing out with the building of the Ren Cen was further exacerbated with the 2 additional RenCen Towers 500 & 600, as well as John Madden's 150 West Jefferson Building, and Gerald Hines One Detroit Center [[currently Comerica Tower, but not for much longer).

John Madden [[developer from Denver Colorado) was going to build an even taller tower that would have risen out of the [[planned) shell of the firehouse across from Cobo. He was planning on saving the skin of the building, and have a new tower rising within its' shell as well as soaring above that shell. That plan [[tentatively called "Firehouse Square") went nowhere with the soft office market of the 1990s. Also, when 150 West Jefferson was first built, the foundations of the part of that structure behind the Roney Building [[to the left of the Financial Center People Mover Station) were strengthened to build another smaller tower on that corner of the block. Again, that went nowhere as well.

Another plan that never came to fruition was by Houston developer Gerald Hines. He had originally planned on a twin tower of his One Detroit Center [[to be called Two Detroit Center) on the portion of the block facing the Millender Center. Again the soft office market ended that idea, and another parking structure [[2nd one on that large block) was built instead.

With these new buildings coming online in a soft downtown office market, was it any wonder that plans for the Hudsons Building never got off the ground?

A building program during the soft market era in Detroit was a big mistake. Coleman Young had done some good. He also had made some of the most craziet mistakes in the city's history. One of them was okaying the building of new skyscrapers during the soft market era[[1980's and 1990s) That was a time when firms were leaving downtown detroit as fast as they could. Officials not being able to see the financial forecast of the city help put this city on a rapid decline with these building programs. I thought that the rebuilding of Campus Martius was a waste of time also. Woodward should had been left alone in that area. I wouldnt be surprise that the residents of the city are paying for the running of that fountain in front of Compuware. Maybe that is why the water rates are so high in the city. No more building programs leaders. Let utitlize the buildings we already have; and stop letting developers use downtown detroit as some type of experimentation. When things don't go right the developers had made their money and the city is left with twisted dead end streets and unnecessary buildings and parking structures

[DetroitPlanner]

Hey found my old Ren Cen shopping map from when they opened. I was just a young planner then but I knew I loved development. Here are the stores by level, Starting in tower 100 and working around. Lets take a walk, shall we?

L2
McDonald's
Gantos
Winkleman's
Ms Sibley, Sibley
The Next Door Shop
FAO Schwartz
Jean House
Wachler Jewers
The Man Shop
Olga's
Renaisnce Theatres
Mexican Restraurant [[Wow what an original name!)
Hill & Hill
Clancy's
NBD
A whole bunch of nothing between 200 and 300 This at one time became known as the World of Ford.
The Magic Pan
Casual Corner
Whalings
The Limited
Stone Flower
Ramayan Arts
Little King and Queen
Now we reach 400, between 400 and 100 were:
Leonard of London [[Ontario!?)
CNB
Sign of the Mermaid
Gallery Renaissance
Courages
Mark Cross
Cartier
Halson
Ungaro
Charles Jourdan
Hattie
The Bevy
Custom Shop
Godiva
Lavilin
Manufacturers Bank.

Now down the escalator or the tiny circular stairwells to L! [[remember those?)
Starting again in 100
The Quiet Place
Manfucaturer's Bank [[2nd location)
World Camera
Cravings
American Office Supply
Turkes
White's Records
Waldenbooks
Instant Photos/Mementos/Planterra
Cookie Machine
Calumet Tabacco
Waldenbooks
Hoffritz
NRC
Clear Reflections
Fourth Dimension
Bon Ton Shoppe
Charming Ideas/Everyones Nuts/Computer Photo
Money Museum
NBD
American Express
Findahl Galleries
Italian Grinder
Mole Hole
Bunch of nothing between 200 and 300 again! I can recall at one time Crowley thought of putting a store here on both levels, but it never came to be.
First Federal
Thomas Cook
GNC
Hoi King Lau
Nemo's Saloon
Dionysos
Koney Island Inn
Tiffany's [[the bakery sorry ladies not pale blue boxes!)
Mikado
Vel's
Phillipine Imports
DOC
Manfreds
Big Boys
Ice Cream Parlor
Chinese Antiques
Grove
Opera
Hotel Lobby.

Promenade [[now known as GM World)
A bunch of Bars, Detroit Bank and Trust, Shaperos Drug Store, and Lawrence Mayer.

Statsu, note the ren cen constructoin began long before Mayor Young was in power. It was an offshoot of New Detroit and Detroit Renaissance.

Lets not forget the GM spent a fortune on fixing many of the RenCen's sins by opening it up to Jefferson and the River. GM also built the part of the riverwalk in front of their building. One of the more impressive fixes was done inside the building. With the introduction of the Atrium, the Glass Walkway, and moving the Hotel lobby off the first floor they did a lot to open the place up with light, improve how to move from tower to tower, and keep the hotel folks from getting lost in the carverns! Though I still have a hard time getting to the 'new lobby' from the building itself. Its a lot more functional, open, and inviting than it ever was before GM.

[jonathanlivingstonseagull]

Nice work, DP! I am assuming most of the retailers bailed after their lease expired.

[DetroitDad]

DetroitDad,

First, it's Ernst & Young.

Second, 2 of the 4 tenants in the building came from the suburbs.

Nish, I was speaking from memory. Wasn't Kennedy square a controversial building because it had tax dollar help, and ended up steeling someone from 150 West Jefferson?

[spiritofdetroit]

No one from 150 W Jefferson is at One Kennedy Square. Ernst & Young had been at One Detroit Center.

[iheartthed]

Hey found my old Ren Cen shopping map from when they opened. I was just a young planner then but I knew I loved development. Here are the stores by level, Starting in tower 100 and working around. Lets take a walk, shall we?

L2
McDonald's
Gantos
Winkleman's
Ms Sibley, Sibley
The Next Door Shop
FAO Schwartz
Jean House
Wachler Jewers
The Man Shop
Olga's
Renaisnce Theatres
Mexican Restraurant [[Wow what an original name!)
Hill & Hill
Clancy's
NBD
A whole bunch of nothing between 200 and 300 This at one time became known as the World of Ford.
The Magic Pan
Casual Corner
Whalings
The Limited
Stone Flower
Ramayan Arts
Little King and Queen
Now we reach 400, between 400 and 100 were:
Leonard of London [[Ontario!?)
CNB
Sign of the Mermaid
Gallery Renaissance
Courages
Mark Cross
Cartier
Halson
Ungaro
Charles Jourdan
Hattie
The Bevy
Custom Shop
Godiva
Lavilin
Manufacturers Bank.

Now down the escalator or the tiny circular stairwells to L! [[remember those?)
Starting again in 100
The Quiet Place
Manfucaturer's Bank [[2nd location)
World Camera
Cravings
American Office Supply
Turkes
White's Records
Waldenbooks
Instant Photos/Mementos/Planterra
Cookie Machine
Calumet Tabacco
Waldenbooks
Hoffritz
NRC
Clear Reflections
Fourth Dimension
Bon Ton Shoppe
Charming Ideas/Everyones Nuts/Computer Photo
Money Museum
NBD
American Express
Findahl Galleries
Italian Grinder
Mole Hole
Bunch of nothing between 200 and 300 again! I can recall at one time Crowley thought of putting a store here on both levels, but it never came to be.
First Federal
Thomas Cook
GNC
Hoi King Lau
Nemo's Saloon
Dionysos
Koney Island Inn
Tiffany's [[the bakery sorry ladies not pale blue boxes!)
Mikado
Vel's
Phillipine Imports
DOC
Manfreds
Big Boys
Ice Cream Parlor
Chinese Antiques
Grove
Opera
Hotel Lobby.

Promenade [[now known as GM World)
A bunch of Bars, Detroit Bank and Trust, Shaperos Drug Store, and Lawrence Mayer.

Statsu, note the ren cen constructoin began long before Mayor Young was in power. It was an offshoot of New Detroit and Detroit Renaissance.

Lets not forget the GM spent a fortune on fixing many of the RenCen's sins by opening it up to Jefferson and the River. GM also built the part of the riverwalk in front of their building. One of the more impressive fixes was done inside the building. With the introduction of the Atrium, the Glass Walkway, and moving the Hotel lobby off the first floor they did a lot to open the place up with light, improve how to move from tower to tower, and keep the hotel folks from getting lost in the carverns! Though I still have a hard time getting to the 'new lobby' from the building itself. Its a lot more functional, open, and inviting than it ever was before GM.

Wasn't there a Louis Vuitton store in the Ren Cen too?

[Traveller1]

Hey found my old Ren Cen shopping map from when they opened. I was just a young planner then but I knew I loved development. Here are the stores by level, Starting in tower 100 and working around. Lets take a walk, shall we?

L2
McDonald's
Gantos
Winkleman's
Ms Sibley, Sibley
The Next Door Shop
FAO Schwartz
Jean House
Wachler Jewers
The Man Shop
Olga's
Renaisnce Theatres
Mexican Restraurant [[Wow what an original name!)
Hill & Hill
Clancy's
NBD
A whole bunch of nothing between 200 and 300 This at one time became known as the World of Ford.
The Magic Pan
Casual Corner
Whalings
The Limited
Stone Flower
Ramayan Arts
Little King and Queen
Now we reach 400, between 400 and 100 were:
Leonard of London [[Ontario!?)
CNB
Sign of the Mermaid
Gallery Renaissance
Courages
Mark Cross
Cartier
Halson
Ungaro
Charles Jourdan
Hattie
The Bevy
Custom Shop
Godiva
Lavilin
Manufacturers Bank.

Now down the escalator or the tiny circular stairwells to L! [[remember those?)
Starting again in 100
The Quiet Place
Manfucaturer's Bank [[2nd location)
World Camera
Cravings
American Office Supply
Turkes
White's Records
Waldenbooks
Instant Photos/Mementos/Planterra
Cookie Machine
Calumet Tabacco
Waldenbooks
Hoffritz
NRC
Clear Reflections
Fourth Dimension
Bon Ton Shoppe
Charming Ideas/Everyones Nuts/Computer Photo
Money Museum
NBD
American Express
Findahl Galleries
Italian Grinder
Mole Hole
Bunch of nothing between 200 and 300 again! I can recall at one time Crowley thought of putting a store here on both levels, but it never came to be.
First Federal
Thomas Cook
GNC
Hoi King Lau
Nemo's Saloon
Dionysos
Koney Island Inn
Tiffany's [[the bakery sorry ladies not pale blue boxes!)
Mikado
Vel's
Phillipine Imports
DOC
Manfreds
Big Boys
Ice Cream Parlor
Chinese Antiques
Grove
Opera
Hotel Lobby.

Promenade [[now known as GM World)
A bunch of Bars, Detroit Bank and Trust, Shaperos Drug Store, and Lawrence Mayer.

Statsu, note the ren cen constructoin began long before Mayor Young was in power. It was an offshoot of New Detroit and Detroit Renaissance.

Lets not forget the GM spent a fortune on fixing many of the RenCen's sins by opening it up to Jefferson and the River. GM also built the part of the riverwalk in front of their building. One of the more impressive fixes was done inside the building. With the introduction of the Atrium, the Glass Walkway, and moving the Hotel lobby off the first floor they did a lot to open the place up with light, improve how to move from tower to tower, and keep the hotel folks from getting lost in the carverns! Though I still have a hard time getting to the 'new lobby' from the building itself. Its a lot more functional, open, and inviting than it ever was before GM.

What exactly happend to all the space that all these stores took up at one time? Did they become office space or something? When you look at the shops the RenCen has in 2010 it doesn't compare at all to the list when it first opened.

Today's List:
Ashley's Flowers
Ashley's Flowers
BonBons Candy and Godiva Chocolatier
Calumet Market & Spirits
Cherylynn's Gold Crown Hallmark
Coffee Beanery
Costa D'Oro Jewelers
CVS Pharmacy
Detroit Locker Room
Edible Arrangements
Exquisite Shoe Fixers
Jos. A. Bank
Millender Center Food Plaza
Pure Detroit/GM Collection
Renaissance 500 Tobacco Shop
Sam's Tailor Shop
Scentsations Fragrance & Crystal Boutique
The Runway
Tunnel Liquor & Gift Shoppe
U.S. Post Office

[Hermod]

What exactly happend to all the space that all these stores took up at one time? Did they become office space or something? When you look at the shops the RenCen has in 2010 it doesn't compare at all to the list when it first opened.

Today's List:
Ashley's Flowers
Ashley's Flowers
BonBons Candy and Godiva Chocolatier
Calumet Market & Spirits
Cherylynn's Gold Crown Hallmark
Coffee Beanery
Costa D'Oro Jewelers
CVS Pharmacy
Detroit Locker Room
Edible Arrangements
Exquisite Shoe Fixers
Jos. A. Bank
Millender Center Food Plaza
Pure Detroit/GM Collection
Renaissance 500 Tobacco Shop
Sam's Tailor Shop
Scentsations Fragrance & Crystal Boutique
The Runway
Tunnel Liquor & Gift Shoppe
U.S. Post Office

None of which do more than service the folks that work in the building.

[DetroitPlanner]

Note that today the ren cen toaday also includes 2 additional towers and the millender center which all have retail.

Regarding Louis Vitton, it would not surprise me if it did. I seem to recall it having the store, but Mark Cross was a very similar type of store in the 1970's. Remember my list was made off of a snapshot in time [[a visitors guide map) when the place first opened with a couple of remarks thrown in for good measue. Lots of stores have come and gone since it first opened. The layout of the store levels have been significantly altered at least twice, with smaller alterations when the people mover and tunnel to millender were built.

[stasu1213]

GM should offer incentives to stores to set up shop especially in the Winter Gardens. GM own the building and paid it off. They could lower the cost to lease space inside the building.Hire a PR person to advertise these shops. A blade and board shop would do good inside the Winter Gardens being that many people rollerblades along the RiverWalk. The Dequindre Cut extension and the William Milliken park opening will give rollerbladers good reason to blade in the area more often

[DetroitPlanner]

Skateboards are forbidden from the riverwalk and Hart Plaza because the kids shred the concrete. I've seen em even busting up the tilework on the Union Sculpture! You tell them to go away that they can't be there and they tell you to f-off. I would doubt that GM would want the plaza they paid for ruined by a bunch of disrespectful kids. By having such a store they are creating a liability issue; should one of those kids hurt themselves ruining the GM plaza GM would get sued by the kid because they created an environment that welcomed such activity by having a store that made money off of it.

I am sure that GM does offer some sort of incentives. The issue is that it is a tough market.

[stasu1213]

Skateboards are forbidden from the riverwalk and Hart Plaza because the kids shred the concrete. I've seen em even busting up the tilework on the Union Sculpture! You tell them to go away that they can't be there and they tell you to f-off. I would doubt that GM would want the plaza they paid for ruined by a bunch of disrespectful kids. By having such a store they are creating a liability issue; should one of those kids hurt themselves ruining the GM plaza GM would get sued by the kid because they created an environment that welcomed such activity by having a store that made money off of it.

I am sure that GM does offer some sort of incentives. The issue is that it is a tough market.

Point well taken. Is rollingblading forbidden also? Do you see any plans for retail in the RenCen in the future?

[Traveller1]

Point well taken. Is rollingblading forbidden also? Do you see any plans for retail in the RenCen in the future?

I really don't think there is any real future for retail at the RenCen, there is not enough daily foot traffic. Other towers in places like New York or Chicago have daily foot traffic from full occupied towers and tons of tourists. But the towers of the RenCen simply are for work and thats it, I wish it wasn't that way, that's not the way Henry Ford II envisioned the RenCen when he was building it, but it's the way it turned out.

It would be awesome to see the Renaissance Center turn into a national destination like the Empire State Building or the Sears Tower [[Willis Tower) is, but with the daily tourists and interest in the shopping, it couldn't survive. Which is basically what Henry Ford II tried in the late 70's and early 80's.

[mikeg19]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Ren Cen is completely paid off isn't it?

If that's the case, anything they take in is profit [[minus operating costs obviously). Wouldn't it make sense for them to lower the costs of setting up shop to entice more businesses?

What type of retail does Millender Center have? I wasn't even aware they had retail there...

[ghettopalmetto]

Regardless of any incentives, it will be difficult at best to draw shoppers off the street into the Renaissance Center. GM's effort to create the Winter Garden is light years of improvement beyond the previous condition, but it's still insufficient.

The building is set too far back from the roadway for the average pedestrian to discern public and private space. The exterior provides no hint that there are retail stores inside. You're always going to have ten lanes of traffic on Jefferson with which to contend, and the side of the building facing the Riverwalk is, for all intents and purposes, blank. No lease incentives are going to overcome these permanent physical and psychological obstacles.