Downtown Retail

**dover627** · February-04-10, 09:54 AM

For whatever reason, I got to thinking about the old downtown Hudson's today, and started thinking about the utter lack of retail in the CDB. Aside from the obvious, why isn't there more talk about trying to attract a major anchor retailer to re-establish some sort of retail district downtown. It seems that if you add easy parking, it could become a destination spot...I mean, people drive from Clinton Township to shop at Somerset, so who's to say they wouldnt drive downtown?

Food for thought...

**ghettopalmetto** · February-04-10, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by dover627

For whatever reason, I got to thinking about the old downtown Hudson's today, and started thinking about the utter lack of retail in the CDB. Aside from the obvious, why isn't there more talk about trying to attract a major anchor retailer to re-establish some sort of retail district downtown. It seems that if you add easy parking, it could become a destination spot...I mean, people drive from Clinton Township to shop at Somerset, so who's to say they wouldnt drive downtown?

Food for thought...

There's nothing to think about. There isn't sufficient income density in the CBD to make a major anchor retailer profitable.

**dover627** · February-04-10, 10:06 AM

Agree 100%. The question is, can you convince a retailer to analyze demographics on a regional basis to capture the "destination shopper" buying power. Recognizing that the big boys have pretty stringent requirements for income, population, etc., is there a way to get around that?

**esp1986** · February-04-10, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by dover627

Agree 100%. The question is, can you convince a retailer to analyze demographics on a regional basis to capture the "destination shopper" buying power. Recognizing that the big boys have pretty stringent requirements for income, population, etc., is there a way to get around that?

Hudson's was proof, a major retailer downtown can make it a destination... even before it closed, there were at least people on merchant's row on a daily basis. The problem with Hudson's was that their sales had dropped significantly and they still had the high overhead associated with that massive building, and the dropping sales just didn't support it anymore.

Now to expect a ton of people to come from the north is not realistic, at first anyway, but if they could attract people from the south and west of town, it could be feasible... with a little bit of time and advertising, other stores will follow, say a Macy's, I really believe, from an economic standpoint, it could work solely from the point that a retailer like that would make it a destination. These are the types of retailers that make malls survive, so using that logic they could make it work... they would have to advertise it though.

**ndavies** · February-04-10, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by esp1986

Hudson's was proof, a major retailer downtown can make it a destination... even before it closed, there were at least people on merchant's row on a daily basis. The problem with Hudson's was that their sales had dropped significantly and they still had the high overhead associated with that massive building, and the dropping sales just didn't support it anymore.

Now to expect a ton of people to come from the north is not realistic, at first anyway, but if they could attract people from the south and west of town, it could be feasible... with a little bit of time and advertising, other stores will follow, say a Macy's, I really believe, from an economic standpoint, it could work solely from the point that a retailer like that would make it a destination. These are the types of retailers that make malls survive, so using that logic they could make it work... they would have to advertise it though.

Why would they come from the south or the west? They would have to drive right by Fairlane in Dearborn or Southland mall in Taylor. Both are less than 15 miles from downtown and contain most of the stores people would drive to including Macy.

**ghettopalmetto** · February-04-10, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by ndavies

Why would they come from the south or the west? They would have to drive right by Fairlane in Dearborn or Southland mall in Taylor. Both are less than 15 miles from downtown and contain most of the stores people would drive to including Macy.

[[This is the part where someone says, "Yes, but if the store is *special* and *unique* and *doesn't exist anywhere else in the Detroit area*, it'll attract people.)

"Special", "unique", and "doesn't exist anywhere else in the Detroit area" being code words for high-end designer stores that, again, couldn't survive in downtown Detroit due to the lack of income density.

**esp1986** · February-04-10, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by ndavies

Why would they come from the south or the west? They would have to drive right by Fairlane in Dearborn or Southland mall in Taylor. Both are less than 15 miles from downtown and contain most of the stores people would drive to including Macy.

If it is done properly, the store would be done to be one of the nicer ones in the area... most of the people in the northern suburbs are in their own little world and think that Sommerset is the best place on earth, in my experiences anyway. If they build a nice store, to rival that of Macy's in Sommerset, people from the south and west will come, the same people that don't want to drive the 45 mins+ up to Sommerset.

**ScienceFair** · February-04-10, 10:32 AM

Hudson's downtown was still profitable when it closed. The company made a decision to close the store as to not pull away business from its suburban counterparts.

**dover627** · February-04-10, 10:24 AM

Groups like DEGC, et. al spend a lot of time and resources trying to attract businesses and corporations downtown [[and rightly so). I wonder if some type of well strategized retail attraction effort would be impactful.

**Detroitnerd** · February-04-10, 10:27 AM

Downtown will not be a major shopping destination ... unless there were a streetcar system.

**dover627** · February-04-10, 10:28 AM

How would a streetcar system help? Unless it went from downtown to...Canton...

**Detroitnerd** · February-04-10, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by dover627

How would a streetcar system help? Unless it went from downtown to...Canton...

The way downtown is set up -- small streets, paid parking, etc. -- makes it difficult to set up real "destination shopping" there. Imagine the sort of traffic that goes through IKEA in Canton: At peak times, you'll wait for three lights just for traffic to inch ahead enough to slip in and park. And that's in a place that's right off the expressway and set up purposely to accommodate all those cars. And it still doesn't do the job very well.

The only efficient way to move large amounts of people in and out of downtown is a streetcar. Buses don't live long, are slow and don't carry enough people. [[And many people could not be induced to ride a bus anyway.) Streetcars are durable, quick and carry lots of people.

That's how Hudson's grew to the size it was. You'd hop on a streetcar and go where all the streetcars converged.

As for Canton, well, I feel sorry for anybody who bought a $250,000 house there in the last 10 years, hoping it would be a smart investment.

**dover627** · February-04-10, 10:29 AM

Why do people come downtown to go out to eat or to go see a play? You can do that in the suburbs too, but coming downtown makes it a "special", "unique" event.

**ndavies** · February-04-10, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by dover627

Why do people come downtown to go out to eat or to go see a play? You can do that in the suburbs too, but coming downtown makes it a "special", "unique" event.

And that's why Downtown looks like a ghost town when there aren't any events going on. All the "unique retail experiences" are already in the suburbs or can be built there with far less risk than would be encountered in the city.

**mikeg19** · February-04-10, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by dover627

Why do people come downtown to go out to eat or to go see a play? You can do that in the suburbs too, but coming downtown makes it a "special", "unique" event.

Agreed 100%. It seems that Detroit and the DEGC can get companies to move downtown, but no major retail what so ever. They need a big retailer downtown to get some sort of draw. Is it possible to give a retailer tax credits toward relocating downtown such as they do with large business corporations???

**ghettopalmetto** · February-04-10, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

Agreed 100%. It seems that Detroit and the DEGC can get companies to move downtown, but no major retail what so ever. They need a big retailer downtown to get some sort of draw. Is it possible to give a retailer tax credits toward relocating downtown such as they do with large business corporations???

What's the draw for the retailer? Why would a high-end retailer, or even a department store, want to locate amongst a worker population of only 50,000? Why would they locate in a place where unemployment tops 15%, and those who are employed collectively rank as one of the poorest, least educated cities in the United States? On top of that, you have one-third of the households in the City who don't have access to a car, and the transit system is "iffy" at best. It's not a demographic that screams "money".

If a business succeeds based strictly on massive subsidies, how does that draw other businesses to locate in the same area? Sure, let's just put a giant Crate and Barrel in downtown Detroit and *hope* that they draw other businesses, which most Detroiters still can't afford to patronize. That'll work.

We've seen this time and time again in Detroit. Development Through Inspiration DOES NOT WORK.

**davewindsor** · February-04-10, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

What's the draw for the retailer? Why would a high-end retailer, or even a department store, want to locate amongst a worker population of only 50,000? Why would they locate in a place where unemployment tops 15%, and those who are employed collectively rank as one of the poorest, least educated cities in the United States? On top of that, you have one-third of the households in the City who don't have access to a car, and the transit system is "iffy" at best. It's not a demographic that screams "money".

If a business succeeds based strictly on massive subsidies, how does that draw other businesses to locate in the same area? Sure, let's just put a giant Crate and Barrel in downtown Detroit and *hope* that they draw other businesses, which most Detroiters still can't afford to patronize. That'll work.

We've seen this time and time again in Detroit. Development Through Inspiration DOES NOT WORK.

Nonsense. What's the draw for a retailer? I think all the above is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if a third of residents don't have a car, there's only 50,000 workers in downtown or unemployment is at 15%. I think you could even get a Macy's to work in downtown.

I don't understand why the outrageous prices of shops in Somerset mall works in Troy, but it does. I don't understand how downtown casinos get so much traffic, but they do. Yes, I agree there's a lot of areas that would suck in downtown for large scale retail like a Macy's.like the former Hudson's site because Woodward doesn't have the kind of foot traffic or nearby downtown workers it once had or workers even wanting to walk there, but you don't need to market to them. Attaching a Macy's and/or a shopping centre next to a casino like the 160 shop Forum Shopping centre attached to Caesar's Palace in Vegas might work. Vegas in the middle of a freakin' desert. If it works in Vegas, why can't it work here?

Have a look at some of these gaming tables at Greektown casino and watch how much money people are blowing at these tables. Where's the money coming from? Probably not from the residents of downtown. Yet, Greektown casino was packed last time I went and I had to park on the seventh floor of their new garage and there was a lineup getting in. It would just be a matter of making it convenient to walk from the casino to Macy's like a pedestrian bridge. I think both anchors would increase each other's foot traffic and it would be a win-win for both. After winning or blowing $1,000, the might want to buy something at Macy's for their loved ones.

I think the idea of retail next to a casino is poorly marketed by the landlords and that's why very little has happened. I don't know why they didn't incorporate a shopping centre with large anchors like Macy's into their new hotel addition. The problem with downtown is people normally remain inside certain pockets in downtown and won't venture outside to explore the rest of downtown. So, I think large scale retail could work in downtown if it was attached to a casino.

**Hermod** · February-05-10, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

I think the idea of retail next to a casino is poorly marketed by the landlords and that's why very little has happened. I don't know why they didn't incorporate a shopping centre with large anchors like Macy's into their new hotel addition. The problem with downtown is people normally remain inside certain pockets in downtown and won't venture outside to explore the rest of downtown. So, I think large scale retail could work in downtown if it was attached to a casino.

Atlantic City, NJ thought that gambling was the key to revitalization.

The casinos have been wildly successful in drawing people from all over the region. Outside of the casinos, not much has been happening.

**stasu1213** · February-07-10, 04:39 PM

[quote=davewindsor;116970]Nonsense. What's the draw for a retailer? I think all the above is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if a third of residents don't have a car, there's only 50,000 workers in downtown or unemployment is at 15%. I think you could even get a Macy's to work in downtown.

I don't understand why the outrageous prices of shops in Somerset mall works in Troy, but it does. I don't understand how downtown casinos get so much traffic, but they do. Yes, I agree there's a lot of areas that would suck in downtown for large scale retail like a Macy's.like the former Hudson's site because Woodward doesn't have the kind of foot traffic or nearby downtown workers it once had or workers even wanting to walk there, but you don't need to market to them. Attaching a Macy's and/or a shopping centre next to a casino like the 160 shop Forum Shopping centre attached to Caesar's Palace in Vegas might work. Vegas in the middle of a freakin' desert. If it works in Vegas, why can't it work here?

Have a look at some of these gaming tables at Greektown casino and watch how much money people are blowing at these tables. Where's the money coming from? Probably not from the residents of downtown. Yet, Greektown casino was packed last time I went and I had to park on the seventh floor of their new garage and there was a lineup getting in. It would just be a matter of making it convenient to walk from the casino to Macy's like a pedestrian bridge. I think both anchors would increase each other's foot traffic and it would be a win-win for both. After winning or blowing $1,000, the might want to buy something at Macy's for their loved ones.

I think the idea of retail next to a casino is poorly marketed by the landlords and that's why very little has happened. I don't know why they didn't incorporate a shopping centre with large anchors like Macy's into their new hotel addition. The problem with downtown is people normally remain inside certain pockets in downtown and won't venture outside to explore the rest of downtown. So, I think large scale retail could work in downtown if it was attached to a casino.[/quoteDetroit neighborhoods had in the past catered to Detroiters. Each neighborhood had a commercial district that included a supermarket, a major retail store, smailler retail stores, restaurants schools and churches. Downtown was soley developed for business, shopping, and entertainment purpose. I agree with you when you had said that CBD has to cater to it's residence who lives in the area. Detroit, in the past 20 plus years, had tried to cater to out of towners visiting for a week or so than it's residence themselves. During the superbowl; many visitors were saying that we didnt have a place to shop downtown for clothing. There wasn't even a camera shop that had opened during that weekend to answer the demand for films or new cameras period. Detroit offers fabricated entertainment. You set up shop just for the event then tear down the shop once the event is over. Visitors who stays a few days more in the city often experience a rude awakening. Nothing to do downtown for the thrills had dissapeared.

jflick3535 · February-07-10, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

If a business succeeds based strictly on massive subsidies, how does that draw other businesses to locate in the same area? Sure, let's just put a giant Crate and Barrel in downtown Detroit and *hope* that they draw other businesses, which most Detroiters still can't afford to patronize. That'll work.

We've seen this time and time again in Detroit. Development Through Inspiration DOES NOT WORK.

excellent point!!

That is why the Book Cadillac is doomed to fail[[already has according to some people) and why all those loft projects went under--You can't throw taxpayer money at a market, create a huge supply and hope that demand follows--it's the other way around--Demand first then supply

**ghettopalmetto** · February-07-10, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by jflick3535

excellent point!!

That is why the Book Cadillac is doomed to fail[[already has according to some people) and why all those loft projects went under--You can't throw taxpayer money at a market, create a huge supply and hope that demand follows--it's the other way around--Demand first then supply

There is a distinct difference between subsidizing capital costs, such as renovation of a historic building and returning it to the tax rolls using historic preservation credits, and subsidizing operating losses of a property. To my knowledge, none of the lofts or the Book-Cadillac are having their operations subsidized by any government entity.

**j to the jeremy** · February-04-10, 11:31 AM

People always claim that there aren't enought people living downtown, as if the other 800,000 odd people in the city don't know how to get there . Factor in the midtown population and a potential rail line on Woodward, and it seems like the downtown area isn't as crappy a location for a Target/whatever as people make it out to be.

**ghettopalmetto** · February-04-10, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

People always claim that there aren't enought people living downtown, as if the other 800,000 odd people in the city don't know how to get there . Factor in the midtown population and a potential rail line on Woodward, and it seems like the downtown area isn't as crappy a location for a Target/whatever as people make it out to be.

I agree that when it comes to stores selling necessities--drug stores, hardware stores, grocery stores--Detroit is severely under-retailed. Many stores, though, including department stores, require a certain amount of income within a certain radius of the store. These requirements vary depending on the target demographic of the store. Until this paradigm changes, Detroit's income is just spread too thin over too wide an area to justify a whole lot beyond basic necessities.

**DetroitPlanner** · February-04-10, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

People always claim that there aren't enought people living downtown, as if the other 800,000 odd people in the city don't know how to get there . Factor in the midtown population and a potential rail line on Woodward, and it seems like the downtown area isn't as crappy a location for a Target/whatever as people make it out to be.

Many of those 800k live closer to Fairlane, Northland, Eastland, Southland, or Farmington Hills than to Downtown. If there was a downtown Target, I'd buy smaller things there on my lunch hour, but there is no way I'd be lugging something like a table home on the bus or back to my office then haul it to my car!

Retailing needs to be close to the consumer in order for it to work. Yes there are more people living downtown, but its obviously not enough yet or the stores would be there right now.

**Hermod** · February-04-10, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Many of those 800k live closer to Fairlane, Northland, Eastland, Southland, or Farmington Hills than to Downtown. If there was a downtown Target, I'd buy smaller things there on my lunch hour, but there is no way I'd be lugging something like a table home on the bus or back to my office then haul it to my car!

Retailing needs to be close to the consumer in order for it to work. Yes there are more people living downtown, but its obviously not enough yet or the stores would be there right now.

Precisely.

When I was a kid, my mother used to take me downtown to Hudson's [[walk to Whittier, 6-mile bus to Gratiot, Gratiot streetcar downtown). Hudson's was my mother's "second home". We would shop all day and come home with maybe one small bag. Every time we bought something, the sales clerk would ask, "would you like this sent?" Tuesday afternoon the JL Hudson truck would show up at our front door and disgorge all of my mother's purchases.

Now, you take the station wagon/minivan/SUV to the mall and fill up the back with all of your purchases. It is hard to ride mass transit with your arms full of bags.