Has society become better or worse...

[313WX]

if better, what factors make America a better place to be as opposed to 50 years ago. If society has become worse, what factors have been the causes that makes it worse. What are you long term views, how much better will it become, or how much worse will it become. Will there be less crime or more? More drug use or less? Will America break into tribes or become a melting pot? I have to say that a lot of you in this forum know alot more about alot more things than I do, and I do enjoy learning from all of you. While in my limited knowledge of things I tend to disagree I still enjoy learning new ways of looking at issues. Thanks for any imput.

Worse.

The level of etiqutte since the 1950s has plummeted.

[gnome]

One of the things I wonder about is the collective mid-century mindset related to infrastructure. For example, the building of the Macinaw Bridge must have seemed like a massive waste of money. Remember I-75 didn't exist that far north, the entire UP was BFE and to spend the millions to build that bridge required a vision for future we seem to lack today. Moreover, there was a thriving lake ferry business that took vehicles across the strait, so to build that bridge was essentially a knife in the heart of an industry that traveled all across northern Lake Michigan and Huron. I believe the ferries took people from Mackinaw City not just across the strait but also to Drummond Island on the east and Escanaba on the west.

Soapy Williams was the gov then and I know he always considered that bridge the high water mark of his administration, I just wonder if we have such visionaries with us today.

[sturge]

One area that has become worse seems to be the lack of respect for anything or anyone. I grew up in the 50's and even if I did not like or care for someone older I kept it to myself. We never thought to mouth off to our parents or teachers or any adult for that matter. My daughter attended the same elementary and high school that I did. When my wife and I attended conferences we were appalled at the behavior and lack of respect and manners. Of course the lack of attendance by one or both of the other kids parents told volumes about what they learned at home.
The thought of "It's all about me" has added to the problem.

I agree. It's gotten to a point when I do find someone acting courteous and polite that I become suspicious if he's trying to con me or something.

[Detroitej72]

Soapy Williams was the gov then and I know he always considered that bridge the high water mark of his administration, I just wonder if we have such visionaries with us today.

I think today Old Soapy would be lambasted in 30 second sound bites and wouldn't survive another term.

Because of the age of the sound bite and crazy talk show hosts whipping the masses into a frenzy, politicians are reluctant to embrace so-called radical ideas.

[Det_ard]

if you look at this Heritage Foundation graph [[remember, they are a fairly radical right-wing group) you will see that median household income [[adusted for inflation) held pretty steady, and increased during the Clinton administration at a rate = increases in productivity. productivity went up during the 00s, but median income fell.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Lab..._chart1-lg.gif

Wow, pretty cheeky to use a chart from that particular research paper since the point of the paper was to show how misleading that data is. But you probably didn't even realize that, did you? It's not like you read and understood the paper's explanation of how non-cash worker benefits increased relative to cash income, or how the implicit price deflator is more appropriate to use than the CPI.

Here's the correct chart.




And here's the introduction to the research paper from which you lifted your chart.

There is a widespread belief in America that pro~ductivity is rising but workers are not receiving the fruits of their labor. Citing government data that wages have lagged far behind increases in worker pro~ductivity in recent years, many politicians and jour~nalists contend that America is becoming less economically mobile. This mistaken belief is the result of two misunderstandings.
First, it is incorrect to focus on workers' cash income instead of their total compensation. Total compensa~tion includes such increasingly important components of workers' pay as health benefits, contributions to retirement plans, and paid vacations. These and other employer-provided benefits are not cash income, but they do contribute to workers' well-being.
Second, those claiming reduced mobility often use the wrong measure of inflation to calculate inflation-adjusted pay. By using the consumer price index [[CPI) instead of the implicit price deflator [[IPD), these cal~culations overstate inflation and understate wage growth. The result of this mistake is that wage growth will almost always appear to lag far behind productiv~ity growth, even when workers are making gains.
When compensation is used instead of income and the correct inflation measure is used to calculate infla~tion-adjusted compensation, the data show that total compensation has actually increased in tandem with worker productivity. Contrary to the critics' argu~ments, the data on compensation do not indicate any reduction in economic mobility.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Labor/bg2040.cfm

[Detroit Stylin]

I don't know littlebuddy...let me ask a woman I know who divorced her husband because he used her as a punching bag from time to time. I'm sure she really regrets the "freedom" she & her children have from him.
In other words, don't be so quick to judge unless you know someone's situation at hand. In addition, the "good ol' days" weren't always so "good" for everyone.

Specially in the 50's for a large segment of the population....

[Big Dog]

Tiger Woods might answer, that it's a lot better.

[gibran]

One just has to tune into a tea party convention to see where civility has gone....

[barnesfoto]

The obvious answer is both....it's sad that people were more polite 50 or 60 years ago, but if people were so polite 50 or 60 years ago, were those photos of lynch mobs staged by actors?

And sorry, Ray, but I'm really happy that I don't have to wear a Fedora, they make my head itch.

The greatest change that I saw in my lifetime is hardly even thought of today. I don't quite remember the passage of civil rights laws, but I do remember a neighbor kid who used a wheelchair and never, ever interacted with the other kids on his block, other than his brothers, who never discussed him with the rest of us. He was very limited as to where he could go because prior to the 1980's, there were no laws requiring that people in wheelchairs have equal access to public buildings. Because of the passage of that single law, [[the Americans with Disabilities Act) people in wheelchairs can go to school with everybody else and hold jobs with everybody else.

Of course, if this bill had to be passed today, one can just imagine the shrieks of the American Right, aghast at the public spending involved in altering public buildings, and the indignant response of property owners forced to pay to widen their front doors and build ramps for a "special interest group" or a "bunch of losers".

[East Detroit]

Civility and manners begin at home.

[gibran]

absolutely, ^^^^^ and social justice begins next...

[maxx]

I had occasion to visit my insurance agent's office yesterday. Very beautiful building with plush furnishings. And the staff was all dressed in blue jeans [[and not very good ones, either), sweat shirts, etc. They all looked like slobs. As do most of us today compared to forty, fifty years ago.

Comfortable clothing is one thing. Looking like a dumpster diver is another, and I fear all too many of us prefer the latter.

Anyway, that's one thing that bothers me about today's society.

All that trashie chic is just one example of the latest trend in dishonesty in the business world . They try to look like Joe Sixpack while they are fleecing him .

[maxx]

Women aren't always the victim. There's some pretty cruel wives out there..........
Abuse works both ways.

Yes, because women are so big and strong and so intimidating. If the man has the larger income, and he usually does, then he can move out any time things get too hot. Men have the means to control the size of their families, but a lot prefer to put that responsibility totally on the woman.

[maxx]

Quote: "I'm glad the days of mandatory skirts, heels and girdles for women is over."

I'm not, nothing says female louder than one dressed like one.

And this is important in the workplace because....?

[Patrick]

Remember the days when kids would actually go outside and play? Remember when they weren't cooped up playing video games and surfing the net getting fat?

[Detroitej72]

Remember the days when kids would actually go outside and play? Remember when they weren't cooped up playing video games and surfing the net getting fat?

We used to play baseball in the alleys and if it was only 1 or 2 of us, we'd bounce a tennis ball off the front steps and the other one would have to catch it for an out.

[Ravine]

Internet forums highlight one particular societal down-trend, the one where people cannot strongly disagree without "getting all personal" about it, and eventually sliding into name-calling and subsequent bannings, as well as eventual erasure of entire threads.

It just goes to show that most of us don't change, or grow, very much after about age 15.

[Pam]

I saw this movie today. Those of you longing for the past when women were demure ladies might enjoy it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1biEpinrhY

[Ravine]

Ickkh. Just Ickkh.

[Lowell]

The world into which I was born had seen Dresden recently incinerated killing 300K people in firestorm attacks. Hiroshima and Nagasaki would follow.

Millions of Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and dissidents were being sytematically exterminated.

African-Americans were dying fighting for their country but were denied basic rights in their own country and remained at the whim of lynch mobs. Japanese-Americans were locked away in concetration camps while their sons were becoming the most decorated fighting units in the army.

Women were de facto slaves to their husbands who frequently beat them without consequence while laws held them in their trapped marriages and were forced by law to bear the offspring of rape and incest.

Gay Americans were imprisoned, beaten and demeaned while the law either aided or turned a blind eye.

Industrial pollution was virtually unchecked destroying our air, water and soil.

A nuclear arms race race was emerging that would put us 30 minutes away from Armegeddon triggering an extreme right wing witch hunt came close to shredding our Bill of Rights.

It's better now my friends, far better.

[Ravine]

It so depends on what part of life we examine, I think.

It seems to me that race relations, right here in Detroit, have become worse than they were, say, twenty years ago.

Also, I'm pretty much convinced that the appliances & gadgets we have, the ones with screens, that is, are actually looking at us more than we are looking at them.

The information super-highway, the internet, WWW, etc., our supposed "windows on the world" [[or "global village," instead of "world," if you prefer) may open up so much of our little trifling human universe to us, but I think it's also doing a pretty good job of allowing Persons Unknown to perform just about everything short of a goddam colonoscopy on us.

As much as I love the internet-- and I do-- I swear that I absolutely, 100% believe that we were much better off without it.

[Sstashmoo]

Lowell,

You make some excellent points, but to put a different lens on this..

We are currently watching our economy vaporize, that could easily propel us into a society even worse than depression era levels. A government with disastrous policies and influences, with no foreseeable change in direction. The suffering and anguish that would ensue, would make even your recollection and portrayal a more desirable alternative.

Let's hope that doesn't happen.

[Corn.Bot]

We have lost sight of ethics, courtesy, and civility, and have done so because of our leaders - governmental, municipal, clergy, even the people we report to at work. At any given time, multiple combinations of our leaders are lying, cheating and otherwise breaking multiple combinations of the 10 Commandments. They do so without punishment or retribution. When caught, they say, oops, sorry, and then become bigger celebrities yet. The rest of us might be punished for doing the same thing, but the leader? Not. A leader apologize for abusing a position of authority? Perhaps, but only if it self-serves to do so. Pay back what was stolen? Rarely, and never in full. Fix the damage done to family, friends, constituents, congregation, community by their personal sefishness and perfidy? Why bother? The cost is never borne by the perpetrator or his/her reputation. Never.

"They" have always been this way, but in recent history... the last 50 years? ...our society has become more savvy, less intimidated by, and more interested in the powerful & their individual back-stories. These are the very entities we were taught as children to respect, honor, and strive to be like.

We no longer respect and very rarely honor our leaders anymore, for multiple reasons blaring from every headline and tweet-media available. We do continue to strive to be like them, however.

So... has society become better or worse in 50 yrs? Yes, because we ARE generally better informed, wiser, and more articulate. But... no, because we accept the continued disintegration of civility without question.

[gibran]

good post ^^^^