PBS: "Beyond the Motor City" - Future of rail in Detroit

[ghettopalmetto]

Mikeg19, I echo your sentiments.

Watching the film last night, I couldn't help but think that we're essentially divided into two camps in this country:

1. Risk-averse people who are happy with the status quo and fearful of changing it.

2. People who recognize that the status quo is the enemy, and are ready to bust their ass, take calculated risks, and make investments in a more prosperous future.


We really do need a renewed sense of community and shared purpose in this country to move forward. I don't know why we're all so afraid to say that we depend on one another.

We need to find a way to let the naysayers and pessimists fall by the wayside so we can move forward. From my own personal perspective, our nation is well on the path of decline and I'm sick and tired of it. We now need 60 senators to vote on taking the Capitol trash out to the dumpster. If 41 of the 100 decide it's easier to sit on their asses and do nothing, we all suffer.

This is not the future I want for me, my kids, or my grandkids. I'm tired of people saying that we can't, as a society, make investments in our future because we'd rather have more money in our pockets to piss away on Skoal, mudflaps, and underwear at Walmart. What can we do?

[Detroitnerd]

GM did not buy Detroit's streetcars. The city railroad sold them to Mexico and paved over the tracks. Now, GM might have given the city a good deal on replacment buses, but the decision was the city's to make.

True, GM did not buy Detroit's streetcars. Through the subsidiary it shared with Firestone and Standard Oil -- National City Lines -- GM did go on a buying spree, purchasing all sorts of private streetcar systems in the United States and converting them to systems that used Standard Oil, GM coaches and Firestone tires -- i.e. bus systems. GM had been researching how to disable the competition from streetcars as early as the early 1920s. But city systems were not private, and therefore not for sale, so NCL couldn't buy the DSR.

Luckily for GM, however, the DSR was run by a few people who absolutely hated streetcars and loved converting lines to buses. They were well on their way to getting rid of most streetcar lines by the 1920s and 1930s, but the sudden need for vehicles that could efficiently carry more people than buses gave the streetcars a new lease on life during the war. By 1956, the anti-streetcar faction won, dropping the last streetcar line in Detroit.

It's worth noting that, in newspaper polls, Detroiters didn't want to lose streetcar service, and around that time jeered at freeways, calling them "Cobo Canals." Certainly a tasty little bit of history you don't hear much about today!

[mogo]

GM did not buy Detroit's streetcars. The city railroad sold them to Mexico and paved over the tracks. Now, GM might have given the city a good deal on replacment buses, but the decision was the city's to make.

From the Ohio State University website:

The Great American Streetcar Scandal, also known as the General Motors streetcar conspiracy refers to General Motors, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California and Phillips Petroleum forming National City Lines [[NCL) holding company, which acquired most streetcar systems throughout the United States, dismantled them, and replaced them with buses in the early 20th Century. The scandal alleges that NCL's companies had an ulterior motive to forcibly gain mass use of the automobile among the U.S. population by buying up mass light rail transportation and dismantling it.

Between 1936 and 1950, National City Lines bought out more than 100 electric surface-traction systems in 45 cities, including Detroit, New York, Oakland, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, Tulsa, Baltimore, Minneapolis, and Los Angeles, and replaced them with GM buses. The scandal is rehashed in books like Fast Food Nation; testimony by Government Attorney Bradford Snell to a United States Senate inquiry in 1974 gave the scandal its current prevalence and weight in U.S. popular culture.

Depending on who is telling the story, to one degree or another, the scandal also invokes the Interstate Highway System as an additional culprit, since the system began its initial construction in California after the large-scale dismantling of that state's trolley network. [[Some documentation of the California rapid transit interurban systems — some pieces of which survive as local and semi-local transport systems — is provided by amateur historians such as The Electric Railway Historical Association of Southern California.)

Technically, the scandal would rightly be called the National City Lines scandal or the General Motors-Firestone-Standard Oil-National City Lines scandal. However, GM was indeed the most prominent of the companies engaged in this behavior and had engaged in similar behavior before the scandal took place. Alfred P. Sloan, Jr., long-time president of GM in the early 20th century, had developed a business strategy to expand auto sales and maximize profits by eliminating streetcars; according to GM's own files[citation needed], Sloan had established a special unit in 1922 within the corporation, charged, among other things, with the task of replacing the United States' electric railways with cars, trucks, and buses.

[English]

We really do need a renewed sense of community and shared purpose in this country to move forward. I don't know why we're all so afraid to say that we depend on one another.

We need to find a way to let the naysayers and pessimists fall by the wayside so we can move forward. From my own personal perspective, our nation is well on the path of decline and I'm sick and tired of it. We now need 60 senators to vote on taking the Capitol trash out to the dumpster. If 41 of the 100 decide it's easier to sit on their asses and do nothing, we all suffer.

This is not the future I want for me, my kids, or my grandkids. I'm tired of people saying that we can't, as a society, make investments in our future because we'd rather have more money in our pockets to piss away on Skoal, mudflaps, and underwear at Walmart. What can we do?

I loved your post, ghettopalmetto. I'm afraid that it will take a major crisis [[total economic collapse, or God forbid, another attack) to make this happen. There are too many people in this nation who are comfortable with the status quo. Bob Herbert's NYT column about the class-based nature of this recession was a case in point:

The Worst of the Pain [[New York Times):
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/09/op...09herbert.html

It opens with this line: "There is a great tendency in this country to refuse to see what is right in front of everybody’s eyes."

IIRC, Herbert also wrote a great column within the past few months about Detroit being the canary in the coal mine for the nation.

[Bearinabox]

Between 1936 and 1950, National City Lines bought out more than 100 electric surface-traction systems in 45 cities, including Detroit, New York, Oakland, Philadelphia, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, Tulsa, Baltimore, Minneapolis, and Los Angeles, and replaced them with GM buses.

Maybe you should tell Ohio State University that there's a mistake on their web site, then. The rest of the information you quoted is correct to the best of my knowledge, but Detroit shouldn't be on that list. DSR was never purchased by NCL or anybody else, and continued to exist as a city-owned operation until it was reorganized into DDOT in the 70s.

[Detroitnerd]

Maybe you should tell Ohio State University that there's a mistake on their web site, then. The rest of the information you quoted is correct to the best of my knowledge, but Detroit shouldn't be on that list. DSR was never purchased by NCL or anybody else, and continued to exist as a city-owned operation until it was reorganized into DDOT in the 70s.

I, too, wondered why they'd have that info on their website. Was there some fragmentary system in the Detroit area they mean? Some remnant of the DUR? I can't account for the inclusion of "Detroit" either.

[stasu1213]

True, GM did not buy Detroit's streetcars. Through the subsidiary it shared with Firestone and Standard Oil -- National City Lines -- GM did go on a buying spree, purchasing all sorts of private streetcar systems in the United States and converting them to systems that used Standard Oil, GM coaches and Firestone tires -- i.e. bus systems. GM had been researching how to disable the competition from streetcars as early as the early 1920s. But city systems were not private, and therefore not for sale, so NCL couldn't buy the DSR.

Luckily for GM, however, the DSR was run by a few people who absolutely hated streetcars and loved converting lines to buses. They were well on their way to getting rid of most streetcar lines by the 1920s and 1930s, but the sudden need for vehicles that could efficiently carry more people than buses gave the streetcars a new lease on life during the war. By 1956, the anti-streetcar faction won, dropping the last streetcar line in Detroit.

It's worth noting that, in newspaper polls, Detroiters didn't want to lose streetcar service, and around that time jeered at freeways, calling them "Cobo Canals." Certainly a tasty little bit of history you don't hear much about today!

The three horsemen of the apocalype for Detroit. GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil. All three had benefitted by making detroit a bus town and keeping it that way. Having light rail reduces your dependent on the automobile[[GM), keep money in your pockets from paying high gas prices for your car[[Standard Oil), and don't have to worry about spending money for new tires due to bad roads with potholes[[Firestone). Go figure

[Hermod]

I, too, wondered why they'd have that info on their website. Was there some fragmentary system in the Detroit area they mean? Some remnant of the DUR? I can't account for the inclusion of "Detroit" either.

I believe that 1931 was when the last DUR line quit running [[have to check my sources). The DSR took over some of the DUR lines and ran suburban service for a little while. EDIT TO ADD: Just checked. Everything was abandoned during the period 1928-1931 except the Detroit-Toledo line which lasted into 1932. That was the last of the Detroit area interurban system.


The DSR abandoned the first of the Detroit city streetcar lines in 1945, and by 1955, they were all gone.

The last bit of DUR not taken over by the DSR was a stretch from Marine City to Algonac that was purchased by Chris-Craft to bring rail loads of lumber into their plant and ship out finished boats.

In the 1950s, you could still see the old DUR interurban grades along the side of Rochester Road and Orion Road. After they widened the roads to four lanes, these were covered over.

.

[rbdetsport]

What was the professor's name from uofm?

[ghettopalmetto]

Robert Fishman

http://www.tcaup.umich.edu/planning/...ex.php?sel=153

[xD_Brklyn]

Enjoyed the program. Thanks for the link. Good luck with the light rail.

[Glowblue]

The focus on the demise of Detroit's streetcars seems wrongheaded to me. The streetcars of old were really no better than the buses that replaced them. They weren't any faster, since they shared a right-of-way with automobiles which meant they got bogged down in traffic, just like buses. This is unlike modern light rail, which usually runs on an exclusive right-of-way and has traffic signal priority. What really did in Detroit transit, in my opinion, was the failure to develop a true rapid transit system [[i.e. a subway), which would have provided definite mobility advantages over streetcars and buses. It is interesting to note that the numerous Detroit subway proposals of the 20s and 30s were all opposed by the DSR, since they would have drawn riders off the most lucrative streetcar lines.

[lostinyokers]

Well,
Considering I moved out of Detroit to eventually become a Conductor out here in NYC for the Metro-North [[largest commuter railroad in the country,) I might have a bit of insight for you guys, depending how snarky people feel today. lol.

First off, the notion that GM, or any one else cannot double dip in auto and rail is absurd, Kawasaki makes all of the subway cars for NYC and has the new contract for 350+ M-8 cars for the New Haven line at over $1 mil a piece. Plus, they have to be sailed to Baltimore from Japan,towed to New York, then tested here on our properties. This is after retro-fitting in Yonkers at their Kawasaki plant. You pay for this. I bet you'd also like to get PAID for this, right?

There are GM plants here as well that are idle and have crushed communities in the same way as the D. Innovation is possible at many "green levels" that do not include the ugly and expensive lith-ion or hybrids[[ nice work Toyota!) can sustain at this point.

Like 3rd rail...

Lets also include Obama and Jo Jo's obvious inclination [[$8 bill towords rail in stim. funds as a baby start) to improve our transportation infrastructure [[sp.?) There is wiggle room to make ourselves competetive in rail as Detroiter's have the fabricating knowledge pretty much down by now.

It is a real possibility to outbid and out produce these foriegners as some of our equipment is falling apart [[the M-7's are 5 yrs. old, M-1's are retired, and the M-3's are not allowed out in snow!) and I am a tad bitter that we work on this shite when Detroit Desiel was the backbone of the country at one point. Plus, This doesn't kill you union folk. You can actually pay into retirement instead of a dead, defunct, bankrupt SS sytem. Thats enough for now. Sweet dreams, kids.

[Hermod]

First off, the notion that GM, or any one else cannot double dip in auto and rail is absurd,

Yes, it is absurd. In 1930, GM purchased Winton Engine Company [[builders of large diesel engines) and EMEC [[builders of diesel powered railcars using Winton engines) to form the Electro-Motive Division [[EMD) of General Motors. From plants in LaGrange, IL and London, Ontario, EMD produced the majority of diesel locomotives built in the US and Canada from 1940 until a few years ago when GE began to inch past them to take the lead. GM sold EMD to an investment group in 2005, so for 75 years, GM was the largest producer of railroad locomotives in the US.[[SW switching engines, F-units, E-units, GPs and SDs). Virtually every train running in the US [[other than commuters) is pulled by an EMD or a GE locomotive.
The LaGrange factory is still producing locomotives. No foreign company has ever made the slightest inroad into the US freight locomotive business.

I am a tad bitter that we work on this shite when Detroit Desiel was the backbone of the country at one point

Detroit Diesel made the flat diesel engines which powered the gigantic fleet of RDC [[Rail Diesel Cars) produced by Budd corporation and built by their factory in Red Lion, PA.

[Hermod]

The three horsemen of the apocalype for Detroit. GM, Firestone, and Standard Oil. All three had benefitted by making detroit a bus town and keeping it that way. Having light rail reduces your dependent on the automobile[[GM), keep money in your pockets from paying high gas prices for your car[[Standard Oil), and don't have to worry about spending money for new tires due to bad roads with potholes[[Firestone). Go figure

Here is a quote from Wikipedia which sheds a little different light on the decline of the streetcars systems:

In the 19th century, city transit systems were rail-based, first with horse-drawn cars and later with cable cars. Around 1890, streetcars began to be powered by electricity, and streetcar companies built large generating facilities to produce the needed electricity. They began to sell their surplus electricity to consumers and, in time, their electric businesses outgrew their transit businesses.


Expansion of cities, increasing competition from automobiles, difficult labor relations, and tight regulation of fares, routes, and schedules took their toll on city streetcar systems in the first third of the 20th century. By 1916, street railroads nationwide were wearing out their equipment faster than they were replacing it. While operating expenses were generally recovered, money for long-term investment was generally diverted elsewhere. This included consumer electric distribution systems.


Because streetcar companies were often the biggest single customers of electric utilities, they were often owned partially or wholly by the utilities themselves, which then supplied them with electricity at substantially discounted rates. In some cases, the origin of the situation was reversed; the streetcar company began providing its own electricity, and then later branched out into supplying electricity for other businesses and homes The Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935, an antitrust law, prohibited regulated electric utilities from operating unregulated businesses, which included most streetcar lines, and also restricted the ability of companies to operate across state lines. Many holding companies operated both streetcars and electric utilities across several states; those that owned both types of businesses were forced to sell one. The choice was obvious: the declining streetcar business was far less valuable than the growing consumer electric business, and many streetcar systems were put up for sale.


National City Lines began to buy streetcar systems. Even when the sale of a transit system was not forced, declining revenue – particularly in the Great Depression – left many streetcar systems short of funds for maintenance and capital improvements, and available for purchase. The newly independent lines, no longer associated with an electric utility holding company, had to purchase electricity at full price from their former parents, further shaving their already thin margins.

The full article has some interesting info and shows that the purpose of the combine was not to sell more cars, it was to sell buses. Sloan was trying to beef up the sale of GM buses [[Mack, a large bus producer) was also a part of the conspiracy.

[stasu1213]

The focus on the demise of Detroit's streetcars seems wrongheaded to me. The streetcars of old were really no better than the buses that replaced them. They weren't any faster, since they shared a right-of-way with automobiles which meant they got bogged down in traffic, just like buses. This is unlike modern light rail, which usually runs on an exclusive right-of-way and has traffic signal priority. What really did in Detroit transit, in my opinion, was the failure to develop a true rapid transit system [[i.e. a subway), which would have provided definite mobility advantages over streetcars and buses. It is interesting to note that the numerous Detroit subway proposals of the 20s and 30s were all opposed by the DSR, since they would have drawn riders off the most lucrative streetcar lines.

The streetcars had wider aisles than today's busses in Detroit which has a very narrower aisle way. You could hardly walk to the back of a fully occupied bus with bumping your knee against the passenger sitting down.
I dont think we have enough room below street level for a subway.If we do then yes a subway would be the cheapest way

[Glowblue]

The streetcars had wider aisles than today's busses in Detroit which has a very narrower aisle way. You could hardly walk to the back of a fully occupied bus with bumping your knee against the passenger sitting down.

There's no reason you can't make the aisles wider.

I dont think we have enough room below street level for a subway.If we do then yes a subway would be the cheapest way

1. Why wouldn't Detroit have room beneath the streets? There were many propsals for subways back in Detroit's boom times, so I assume the idea was technically feasible.
2. I didn't say a subway would be cheap [[even the least expensive subway is far more expensive than surface rail), I said it provided better mobility than streetcars and buses, being grade separated. It's hardly relevant now, since the city and state do not have enough money to build a modern light rail system, let alone a subway. My point is that we once did, but chose to develop other means of transportation [[freeways).

[Hermod]

The streetcars had wider aisles than today's busses in Detroit which has a very narrower aisle way. You could hardly walk to the back of a fully occupied bus with bumping your knee against the passenger sitting down.
I dont think we have enough room below street level for a subway.If we do then yes a subway would be the cheapest way

Back when Detroit had both buses and streetcars, I don't remember the PCC streetcar aisles being bigger than the bus [[Mack and GM Twin Coach) aisles. Both had wide aisles to accommodate standing passengers. I would imagine that thirty percent of my time on Detroit city buses and streetcars was spent standing and holding on to the overhead railings or the handles on the corners of the seat backs.

[stasu1213]

Back when Detroit had both buses and streetcars, I don't remember the PCC streetcar aisles being bigger than the bus [[Mack and GM Twin Coach) aisles. Both had wide aisles to accommodate standing passengers. I would imagine that thirty percent of my time on Detroit city buses and streetcars was spent standing and holding on to the overhead railings or the handles on the corners of the seat backs.

Compared to the DDOT busses of today the busses and streetcars aisles were wider. The Smart busses aisles are wider than DDOT. I think that the person who had ordered the DDOT bussses never had caught the buses his or herself. The last row bench seats are cramped at the corner seat. The aisleway is too narrow. There is no legroom behind most of the seats. These busses were design for passenger's uncomforbility. The best busses DDOT had were the ones that came out in 1986 with the black vinyl seats and handicap accesability. The ones in the 1960s and early seventies were comfortable. You could even look out of the back windows. I don't think they had handicap accesability. Maybe someone could correct me on that.

[Detroitus]

I just watched the program online and enjoyed it quite a bit. As a cyclist I wished that they would have included how many cities in Europe are including the bicycle more and more into there mass transit plans. I yearly do a ride with friends where we take BART from S.F. to the far reaches of the east bay, ride up the Sacramento delta to Sacramento and then come back on Amtrak on the Capital Corridor, easily done in one day [[we call it the delta dawdle). As they do point out it's linking systems that make them all the most effective.

Also in this discussion I think the white elephant in the room is that we are allowing our infrastructure to go to hell while continuously fund endless war and imperialism. Until we are willing to redirect military expenditures we are doomed to be economically bankrupt as we are morally.

[Detroitnerd]

Also in this discussion I think the white elephant in the room is that we are allowing our infrastructure to go to hell while continuously fund endless war and imperialism. Until we are willing to redirect military expenditures we are doomed to be economically bankrupt as we are morally.

Trillions for death; pennies for the people. It is very sad indeed.