PBS: "Beyond the Motor City" - Future of rail in Detroit

**jsmyers** · February-09-10, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

The first phase of light rail was to began in December of 2005. A smaller car was to utilize the same track that Amtrak was using. With all of the hype and fanfare about the opening day of the start of this mass transit; the plans was squashed a month before the train was to start running. No feasable explanation was given for the cancellation.

There was no such plan that ever got off the ground. Just because somebody says something is possible doesn't mean that there really is a plan.

**Gingellgirl** · February-09-10, 12:51 PM

The program is now online. Required viewing for all Detroiters and beyond . . .
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/blueprintame...ity/video/939/

**mogo** · February-09-10, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Treelock

And in a toxic political environment where taxes have been thoroughly demonized and investment in the common good identified as the enemy of personal liberty, it's tough to see things getting better.

That's obviously a much broader picture than the M-1 project or any future additions to it that will have to happen in order to make a real impact on Detroit. I remain hopeful about this project, particularly because its construction will be privately financed. But it's only a starting point. Much more is needed.

So the question is this: Can southeast Michigan, which has never been noted for its regional cooperation, overcome its deeply entrenched divisions and mistrust and show the rest of the nation how to lead on transit?

I think the issues people have with taxes will be more difficult than a lack of regional cooperation. Troy/B'ham have the transportation center set to go in this year, which IMO shows that the suburbs see the advantage of mass transit, at least along M1.

**EL Jimbo** · February-09-10, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Gingellgirl

The program is now online. Required viewing for all Detroiters and beyond . . .
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/blueprintame...ity/video/939/

Thanks! The only other listed airing of this here in Lansing was tomorrow at 4 AM. You saved me a lot of lost sleep waking up to watch that!

**EL Jimbo** · February-09-10, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by mogo

I think the issues people have with taxes will be more difficult than a lack of regional cooperation. Troy/B'ham have the transportation center set to go in this year, which IMO shows that the suburbs see the advantage of mass transit, at least along M1.

It depends on how far sighted people wish to be. Now I can't say I blame anyone for being unwilling to pay more in taxes that seem to go towards a bottomless pit of government programs, but I think people would be more willing to pay a tax that was dedicated to specific use like transportation in general and mass transit specifically. I think transportation is ESPECIALLY well suited for this because transportation investment is a tactile thing that the public can see.

Will taxes still be a sticking point? Sure, but if anything [[other than schools) can get funding, that would be it.

**stasu1213** · February-09-10, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

This is nit-picky but I was a little sad to see the program paint Detroit's current transit system as worse than it is, and as it is it's pretty damned bad. In the early part of the show, they implied that on Woodward transit was infrequent and unreliable, whereas Woodward and Gratiot are the only two lines in Detroit and the 'burbs where it is actually reasonable to use the system.

The inclusion of Spain was to make the basic and very important point: if we as a nation do not upgrade our infrastructure, we are a has-been as an important country. There are many ways to lose your place on the world stage; Britain did it by winning two wars, ironically. We are doing it by letting the whole place go to the dogs. Look at any European city, and then look at American cities.

A lot is said about M1 Rail, which I know a good deal about; maybe too much has been said. But we have to start somewhere, and we can nit-pick M1 Rail to death [[why the curb lane! why so many stops! why don't they work with the city! why! why! why!) or we can give it a chance to succeed and to try to get some damned positive vibe going on around here. I vote give it a chance. I only wish Mayor Bing would take this issue seriously, which he does not, so far as I have been able to tell. Where are you, Mr. Mayor? We need you here!

I am still wondering how much influence did the Big Three had on politicians including Presidents in the past 50 yrs to build freeways for cars and not rail systems for trains and commuters. Dave Bing didn't send reps to the table last summer so Detroit will not be part of the high speed rail building program nor will it stop in Detroit unless some negotiations are done.

**mogo** · February-09-10, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I am still wondering how much influence did the Big Three had on politicians including Presidents in the past 50 yrs to build freeways for cars and not rail systems for trains and commuters. Dave Bing didn't send reps to the table last summer so Detroit will not be part of the high speed rail building program nor will it stop in Detroit unless some negotiations are done.

Ah, the Great Streetcar Scandal. This documentary should answer your question, and is another must see for anyone in Detroit: Taken for a Ride. There could probably be a separate thread just for this movie.

I always learned that the highway system was for national defense. Perhaps that was a reason, but the main push was from the auto industry. It was really just a huge government subsidy for the Big 3. It kind of makes you wonder where all of this talk of "private money only" comes from. If you ask me, this is a talking point from the same movement that has worked to kill mass transit for the last 70 years.

I think politicians will give us as much help on mass transit as they have on meaningful health care reform. It will require a larger and/or more vocal grass roots effort. And, speaking of that, can anyone recommend the most active group associated with mass transit in Detroit? Are they welcoming of suburbanites?

**dtowncitylover** · February-09-10, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by mogo

And, speaking of that, can anyone recommend the most active group associated with mass transit in Detroit? Are they welcoming of suburbanites?

TRU, Transit Riders United. And yes they are "welcoming" of suburbanites, don't apologize for being a suburbanite.

Random question about the documentary: while they were talking about J.L. Hudson's, they showed color footage of the store, does anyone know what this footage is from?

**stasu1213** · February-09-10, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by mogo

Ah, the Great Streetcar Scandal. This documentary should answer your question, and is another must see for anyone in Detroit: Taken for a Ride. There could probably be a separate thread just for this movie.

I always learned that the highway system was for national defense. Perhaps that was a reason, but the main push was from the auto industry. It was really just a huge government subsidy for the Big 3. It kind of makes you wonder where all of this talk of "private money only" comes from. If you ask me, this is a talking point from the same movement that has worked to kill mass transit for the last 70 years.

I think politicians will give us as much help on mass transit as they have on meaningful health care reform. It will require a larger and/or more vocal grass roots effort. And, speaking of that, can anyone recommend the most active group associated with mass transit in Detroit? Are they welcoming of suburbanites?

I had been spouting that since I had been on this site. The money that had been spent on research could had been used for the first phase of this project. I am glad that you and others on this site could see beyond the green forest on what is really happening with the mass transit program in Michigan. I had noticed in the PBS special last night the discussion of these hybrids, and electric cars that the car companies are now producing. I was saying to myself that eventhough this special is about Mass Transit in Detroit, the Big 3 is still trying to push their side of the coin and convince people to continue to buy cars for they are much more cleaner and more fuel efficient. I wouldn't be surprise if the stalling of mass transit in Detroit and high speed rail across the nation is by the Big 3 trying to see how they could profit from it.

**warsaw7** · February-09-10, 09:55 PM

After watching the PBS documentary, I saw this on Model D today:

http://www.modeldmedia.com/inthenews...050020910.aspx

**English** · February-10-10, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

You have many boogeyman catching the DOT busses in the city of Detroit. The violence that had occured on those busses in the past few years. Passengers have to be subjected to profanity from uncouth people on the busses. I am afraid at times when I catch the DOT. Imagine those type of hooligans catching the same mass transit as people who are going to work, whether to the office or the shop, and people who are transiting to school. I believe that the main problem was those boogeyman being on the same coach. Even back in the eighties. .

That is what conductors are for. Trains are different than buses. On a bus, a driver is sitting up front and his/her primary job is to drive. On a train, conductors are constantly walking the aisles.

I never got why the rest of the country outside of the major cities seems terrified of riding in the same spaces with people who happen to be Black or Latino and poor. People do just fine in NYC on the subways. They also do just fine in Chicago on the commuter trains... just took one on the way to Union Station from a job interview a couple of weeks ago. You had business men, students, mothers with children, and rough looking hip hop dudes. It looked like AMERICA in the early 21st century... wow, what a thought! No one was scared, they were just trying to get where they needed to go!

It was TOTALLY stress free. I took Amtrak's Wolverine line from Ann Arbor to Chicago Union Station. Ogilvie Station gets you out to the 'burbs. TOTALLY stress free and takes the SAME time as a car if you factor in the time you take to gas up and park! It was also pretty embarrassing that my own region and beloved hometown missed the boat on this over and over again... so glad that in the second decade of the 21st century, we will miss that boat no more!

I welcome this development, for reasons that I hope to be able to announce formally within a week or two. Bring on the light rail!

**Hermod** · February-10-10, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by English

That is what conductors are for. Trains are different than buses. On a bus, a driver is sitting up front and his/her primary job is to drive. On a train, conductors are constantly walking the aisles.

Washington Metro and Florida Tri-Rail trains operate with just an operator in his own little compartment. Transit police ride the trains on a random basis, but there is no conductor and no movement from one car to another.

**ghettopalmetto** · February-10-10, 09:21 AM

I watched the documentary last night [[Thank goodness for DVR!). I thought it was well done, although it seemed to play more on history and nostalgia than economic sense. There was a lack of data analysis, it seemed, but then again, I have to remember that most people run away from number crunching and would be scared off. :-)

With that said, there was a LOT of discussion about a LOT of different issues, but I was impressed at how they were able to tie them together in the span of an hour and a half. Most telling, however, were the comments from the Spaniards. It almost seems as if they feel sorry for us [[and they should!).

I felt an optimistic, positive vibe throughout the film. It made me hopeful that within the next few years, we as a society can get our shit together and realize that we need to invest our money in ourselves if we want to make more of it.

**smogboy** · February-10-10, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

With that said, there was a LOT of discussion about a LOT of different issues, but I was impressed at how they were able to tie them together in the span of an hour and a half. Most telling, however, were the comments from the Spaniards. It almost seems as if they feel sorry for us [[and they should!).

I felt an optimistic, positive vibe throughout the film. It made me hopeful that within the next few years, we as a society can get our shit together and realize that we need to invest our money in ourselves if we want to make more of it.

I think the Spaniards also talked about how much of a leap of faith they had to do in order to go ahead with their plan. It must've been some gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands for them to push ahead with the legislation and funding for their rail plan. Obviously it's paid off big time for them and I think they genuinely wanted us to be that brave in taking that plunge.

Obviously the political landscape here is a little different than what they have there but I do agree that in order for a decent payoff, there has to be some vision and some risk involved. Obviously they rolled the dice and it's paid off.

One of the things that also struck me was that I've looked at Europe as much MUCH older than the US but yet, they've been so much more forward thinking and adaptive with their infrastructure. How come we in Detroit in the US- a much younger country, has fallen so far behind when we were once cutting edge? When did we as a country start regressing and Europe started over taking us?

And I agree, it is possible for us to be the innovators again but it will take some bold people with a plan and some vision to implement a national rail line. We can only hope.

**Warrenite84** · February-10-10, 12:14 PM

I think suburbanites who might be suspicious of this will embrace light rail and streetcar service throughout Metro Detroit if they receive these assurances:
It must be clean
It must be safe
It must be convenient
It must be reliable
And the costs for building and maintaining it are equally shared.

**English** · February-10-10, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Washington Metro and Florida Tri-Rail trains operate with just an operator in his own little compartment. Transit police ride the trains on a random basis, but there is no conductor and no movement from one car to another.

In Detroit, you'd have to have assurances that the transit police would be riding each train. Seeing me might scare the piss out of a random suburban Detroiter, although I'm a month away from having a Ph.D... I'm black and grew up working poor, so obviously I'm dangerous. I took the bus until I was nearly 22 years old, because I couldn't afford to keep a car up until I graduated from college. Nothing EVER happened to me on the DOT. It was slow and unreliable, but it got me to high school, then to my internships downtown.

Warrenite84, none of the Chicago trains I wrote were dirty, but they were serviceable, not spic and span, especially not the commuter train. The inside of the commuter was pea-green and the seats were like those of your average DPS school bus from the last century. You could tell the train was really old but no one noticed or cared.

The thing that always strikes me about the NE corridor, Chicago, and Europe is how completely taken for granted mass transit is. It's not that people won't ever drive. It's just that you don't have to drive if you don't want to.

Because of where I interviewed, I had to take the commuter train in from where the Union-Pacific line originated in Elburn, IL. There were people getting on the line with their kids from quaint suburban towns with beautiful downtowns, along with rough-looking guys getting on closer in to the city, but there were conductors constantly strolling the aisles, taking tickets, and keeping an eye on things. It was soooo nice to have the 1.25 hour ride available to read, catch up on email, and do my daily devotionals instead of listening to the jibber-jabber on the radio and fighting idiots in highway traffic. To each their own, I suppose.

And there have been lots of improvements on the Wolverine line from Pontiac to Chicago as well. I will never, ever drive that route again unless I absolutely have to. I got soooo much reading, work, and catching up via Blackberry done, I could get up and get a snack without stopping my mode of transportation, and it's far more scenic than the highway as well. I am an academic, so I travel quite a bit for work, usually once or twice per month during the school year. Amtrak is SO stress free compared with dealing with American airports right now, and as a single lady professional, I don't really care to drive alone for extremely long distances. On my train rides, people were friendlier than on the plane, there are far larger seats and elbow room, no seat belts, and you are free to walk around. Best of all, a business class upgrade is less than $20, not a few hundred like on a plane.

My recent experiences have me totally sold on rail transport. I am looking for ways to actively support the mass transit movement here in SE Michigan. It has to happen. It's time.

**Hermod** · February-10-10, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by English

The thing that always strikes me about the NE corridor, Chicago, and Europe is how completely taken for granted mass transit is. It's not that people won't ever drive. It's just that you don't have to drive if you don't want to.

Detroit lost out on commuter rail for a reason. By the time Detroit had become large enough to justify commuter rail, the DUR interurban network had been built. Since short haul passengers were the least profitable passengers, the railroads just let the interurban lines keep the local business and concentrated on the intercity trains [[plus Governor Hazen Pingree had passed laws that pretty much guaranteed a low rate of return for the rail passenger business. By the time that the interurban died [[1930 or so), it was the depression and the railroads were not about to embark on the expense of creating commuter service [[needs lots of cars and employees for two brief bursts a day). The DSR extended their lines to some degree to pick up some of the interurban business, but municipal mismangement and the inherent slowness of street running pretty much gave everything away to the automobile.

**smogboy** · February-10-10, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by English

It has to happen. It's time.

I think these words say it all. If Detroit is to survive and one day thrive, this really does need to happen. Instead of sitting back and playing the blame game, we really do need to step up and do it. There already is a model of success in place in Spain already. Why not use them as a template to make ourselves better. It just makes sense.

Bearinabox · February-10-10, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by smogboy

When did we as a country start regressing and Europe started over taking us?

I think it was about the time we started referring to any and all taxes as "government theft."

**English** · February-10-10, 01:30 PM

Thanks, Hermod, for that history! I didn't know that. The movie showed [[much to my surprise) that Detroit used to have a commuter rail network.

This means a lot for me for a specific reason that I'll be able to announce later this month on the forums. In a nutshell, I may be living in Ann Arbor until mid-2011 when my lease is up, but it looks as if I'll probably be working in Detroit.

I checked the Amtrak routes to see if there was any way to take the train right now. There isn't. The first train going east from Ann Arbor to Detroit New Center isn't until right around 1 pm... it's the early morning train from Chicago Union. It would be SO ideal to drive to the Ann Arbor Amtrak station, park, and hop on an hour-long train ride to New Center. From there, it'd be very simple to hop on the Woodward DOT or Smart bus for a 5-10 minute ride to work.

But as of today, February 2010, this is impossible. Which means that me and my little subcompact will be driving up and down I-94 starting this spring quite a bit. I've never commuted more than 20 minutes for work [[don't really prefer that lifestyle), so of course I'll be looking to move back to Detroit soon. BUT even when I do move back, I have many, many friends in the Ann Arbor-Ypsi area that I'll be hoping to stay connected with. So I'll be riding whatever rail line they put in place.

This issue also has personal significance to me. My aunt's best friend and U-M roommate, young Detroit attorney Margrette Taylor, died on I-94 back in September 2000. She purchased a home near her alma mater and worked downtown. She was an advocate of mass transit but her only real option was to carpool, which she did faithfully, and spoke to my family enthusiastically about. Unfortunately on some days, her schedule was longer than 9-5 [[new associates famously work long hours) so the carpool wasn't an option.

On the day Margrette died, she was on I-94 before 7 am and a freakish thing occurred... a ladder flew off the back of a truck, she swerved to avoid it, lost control, and was hit by a truck. SURE -- I know this could have happened to her on a Saturday running errands, or out to hang with friends -- it's a straw man, really, because any of us could die at any time -- BUT in her particular case, if there had been a *logical* rail route running from Ann Arbor to Detroit, she might be here with us today. [[The Young Lawyers Award for the local chapter of the bar association is named after her. I miss her terribly and considered her to be another aunt.)

Yes indeed, Smogboy. It is time.

**mikeg19** · February-10-10, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by smogboy

Obviously the political landscape here is a little different than what they have there but I do agree that in order for a decent payoff, there has to be some vision and some risk involved. Obviously they rolled the dice and it's paid off.

One of the things that also struck me was that I've looked at Europe as much MUCH older than the US but yet, they've been so much more forward thinking and adaptive with their infrastructure. How come we in Detroit in the US- a much younger country, has fallen so far behind when we were once cutting edge? When did we as a country start regressing and Europe started over taking us?

There seems to be so much red tape and squabbling in the United States just to get the simplest things done I'm surprised anything gets done. Do you think the Interstate Highway System could actually be built in this day and age? I highly doubt it. I really hope the ball gets rolling on this light rain project as soon as the documentary said, but I won't be holding my breath.

Americans seem like they are unwilling to take chances. Companies don't want to invest unless they are assured of a moderate to substantial return. It's people like Roger Penske and Mike Illitch and Peter Karmanos who need to put in private investment to get things going and done. Yes, they aren't successful and wealth businessmen because they give money away and don't expect to make money. But it's people like them who are willing to take a risk that made this country great in the first place and that mentality has subsided.

**mogo** · February-10-10, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Detroit lost out on commuter rail for a reason. By the time Detroit had become large enough to justify commuter rail, the DUR interurban network had been built. Since short haul passengers were the least profitable passengers, the railroads just let the interurban lines keep the local business and concentrated on the intercity trains [[plus Governor Hazen Pingree had passed laws that pretty much guaranteed a low rate of return for the rail passenger business. By the time that the interurban died [[1930 or so), it was the depression and the railroads were not about to embark on the expense of creating commuter service [[needs lots of cars and employees for two brief bursts a day). The DSR extended their lines to some degree to pick up some of the interurban business, but municipal mismangement and the inherent slowness of street running pretty much gave everything away to the automobile.

To blame it on the municipalities is more than a little superficial. GM [[and others) bought up the streetcars around the country for the sole purpose of destroying them. This is not a conspiracy theory, they were fined by a judge for doing it.

**smogboy** · February-10-10, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by mikeg19

Americans seem like they are unwilling to take chances. Companies don't want to invest unless they are assured of a moderate to substantial return. It's people like Roger Penske and Mike Illitch and Peter Karmanos who need to put in private investment to get things going and done. Yes, they aren't successful and wealth businessmen because they give money away and don't expect to make money. But it's people like them who are willing to take a risk that made this country great in the first place and that mentality has subsided.

Well said mikeg. I know what you mean. It just seemed as though our ancestors were much more willing to take a chance. Was it naivete? Was it sheer ignorance of the risks? Was it just plain being stubborn?

It does seem as though people want some form of guarantee nowadays whereas it seemed as though people a few generations back were willing to take a chance and a flyer at some hair-brained idea. What I see is America lacking in innovation and the brass balls to invest in that innovation again.

**mogo** · February-10-10, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by smogboy

Well said mikeg. I know what you mean. It just seemed as though our ancestors were much more willing to take a chance. Was it naivete? Was it sheer ignorance of the risks? Was it just plain being stubborn?

It was as simple as people understanding that the benefits far outweighed the costs, and understanding that the benefits couldn't be found in simply looking at the rail system's bottom-line. They looked at the benefits it created for the areas around the rail lines as well.

**Hermod** · February-10-10, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by mogo

To blame it on the municipalities is more than a little superficial. GM [[and others) bought up the streetcars around the country for the sole purpose of destroying them. This is not a conspiracy theory, they were fined by a judge for doing it.

GM did not buy Detroit's streetcars. The city railroad sold them to Mexico and paved over the tracks. Now, GM might have given the city a good deal on replacment buses, but the decision was the city's to make.