PBS: "Beyond the Motor City" - Future of rail in Detroit

**ASR89** · February-08-10, 05:43 PM

Russix, the listings guide on my TV shows it as being on from 10-11:30.

**Hermod** · February-08-10, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mackinaw

1) regular people becoming more open minded regarding use of transit.

Most people will use public transit IF:

a. It is convenient for them [[i.e. it goes from twhere they are to where they want to go at the time they want to go)

b. Public transit is clean, well maintained, and pleasant

c. It is safe with few "undesirable" fellow passengers

2) local leaders seizing the spotlight and increasing their motivation to get regional transit in place.

As opposed to local leaders standing there with their hands out demanding a piece of the action

3) national leaders with the power of the purse recognizing how important Detroit is and how great its needs are in this department.

At a time when the national budget is in deep doo doo. Maybe Detroit and Michigan need to up their tax burdens.

**DetroitPlanner** · February-08-10, 05:59 PM

I am looking forward to watching this. I hope they look at all alternative modes.

I think many of you are confusing inter and intra regional trips. Our region in spite of its penninsular geography does a good job with interregional trips. We have great airports, access to sea-going vessels [[and their invasive species another topic entirely), rail radiating from the region and semi-trucks. As mentioned we are one of the leading ports of entry and export despite our not being located on a true seaboard. The bulk of trade with Canada comes through Detroit because we have better access to the South and West where the markets are and the majority of the other manufacturing takes place. The Northeast may have population, but manufacturing is not there in great numbers anymore and it is better to take I-75 S to get to FL than the eastern seaboard.

What we need to improve on is intraregional travel. We need to make it easier for the Garden Fresh guy to get his salsa from Ferndale to Ann Arbor, and we also need to make it easier to get grandma from her home in Clinton Township to her doctor at the DMC or Henry Ford. We have traded our interregional connections at the expense of our intraregional connections.

**Russix** · February-08-10, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by ljbad89

Russix, the listings guide on my TV shows it as being on from 10-11:30.

Yes, I just double checked it and it looks that way now too.

**dtowncitylover** · February-08-10, 11:31 PM

What a very good program.

They also seem VERY gung-ho on getting that M-1 Rail to break ground by what I hear, the 3rd quarter of this year.

**smogboy** · February-08-10, 11:32 PM

VERY interesting show indeed.

I liked it. It didn't cast Detroit as a "poor me" and it more or less said that we could. Seeing what they've done in Spain with regards to transit is amazing. And whether it can happen here will depend a LOT on the politicians and visionaries to have the fortitude to soldier on.

**pffft** · February-08-10, 11:48 PM

One other use of transit I didn't see listed -- for seniors who can't or shouldn't be on the road.

I know many who live in the suburbs and would dearly love to go to Detroit to the symphony, to the opera, to the DIA...all their old haunts.

**Lowell** · February-08-10, 11:52 PM

Outstanding. Sure there were a couples of stretches only an insider would notice but this was very well researched and well edited with great computer graphics and historical overlays. In the end however I still felt the nagging question. Too little too late? IMO, for Woodward to work the rail needs to run from the river to Pontiac. Well we are about to see and I hope the starter plan is a huge success.

Throughout, I felt as though I was listening to this forum as so many of the images, topics and issues have been and are being discussed in such depth and length here.

**Gsgeorge** · February-08-10, 11:59 PM

I agree, Lowell, the program was wonderfully produced and outlined all the questions and examples that come up when talking about transit in Detroit. I too think the light rail needs to run into Oakland County to be successful. Bridging the 8 Mile barrier seemed to be a theme in the program as an essential component to the success of the region. I hope many of our local leaders and citizens watched this program as it will start the discussion and realization that mass transit is needed here more than anywhere else. After the program I had visions of Detroit as a future hub of transportation and the transportation industry. Makes you wonder why Bing & other area leaders don't offer huge tax incentives and cheap/free land & infrastructure for HSR manufacturers, windmill manufacturers, solar manufacturers and other green enterprises to help spur a new economic boom in Detroit.

**rjlj** · February-09-10, 12:04 AM

Bravo, excellent documentary. There was a lot to cover and they bounced around a lot. I wish this film was made 30 years ago and the people in charge of this region were forced to watch it at least twice a day. The powers at be over the past 50 years really screwed over future generations. It should be a law that any public elected official must have an urban planning degree before being eligible to run for office. I would love to see a follow up ten years from now on this story showing how things have gotten worse or improved.

**Mackinaw** · February-09-10, 12:19 AM

A very effective piece. Showed a decent understanding of Detroit and underscored how its history [[in certain key respects) holds many of the clues to a successful future-- a future which embraces technology the way other countries do.

I like how it painted the building of the interstates as a national project everyone could get behind, and now we have the next logical [[and more efficient) national project staring us in the face...will we respond and do it right, for the sake of a highly functioning economy and better cities, among other things, or will we keep the status quo.

Distribute the documentary widely and communicate with your politicians re: transit policy.

**Funaho** · February-09-10, 12:28 AM

I just finished watching this, and I have to say...wow. In terms of pure information content I knew most of this already from my own research, but seeing it all put together like this brought a tear to my eye. There was both sadness in seeing the decline of a once great city and hope for the future.

My main worry at this point is that we may, as a country, lack the vision and the political will to take the radical steps it's going to take to save ourselves from inevitable decline into a has-been economic power in the 21st century and beyond. We've become so wrapped up in short-term benefits and the "me me me" attitude that it's hard to convince people to pay for something that may not pay off for decades, and there doesn't seem to be anyone in charge who is willing to stick their neck out and say "this is what must be done." There are plenty of people here on DY and elsewhere who understand this, but our political climate is dominated by a noisy minority whose only concern is not paying for anything they don't directly use....at least until they lose their job and car and find they're screwed just like everyone else.

So here's my little brainstorming idea. How about "T" [[transportation) party protests in favor of national infrastructure policy?

**mikeg19** · February-09-10, 12:35 AM

Absolutely excellent documentary. Was full of great information, some I knew, some I didn't. But I liked how they didn't just show fields and broken down buildings but also showed what the potential was for these areas. I hope they show it again so I can re-watch it.

**stasu1213** · February-09-10, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by Gsgeorge

I agree, Lowell, the program was wonderfully produced and outlined all the questions and examples that come up when talking about transit in Detroit. I too think the light rail needs to run into Oakland County to be successful. Bridging the 8 Mile barrier seemed to be a theme in the program as an essential component to the success of the region. I hope many of our local leaders and citizens watched this program as it will start the discussion and realization that mass transit is needed here more than anywhere else. After the program I had visions of Detroit as a future hub of transportation and the transportation industry. Makes you wonder why Bing & other area leaders don't offer huge tax incentives and cheap/free land & infrastructure for HSR manufacturers, windmill manufacturers, solar manufacturers and other green enterprises to help spur a new economic boom in Detroit.

I wonder if corporations still have their hands in Bing;s and other local politican's back pocket. These corporations may not be for light rail. The first phase of light rail was to began in December of 2005. A smaller car was to utilize the same track that Amtrak was using. With all of the hype and fanfare about the opening day of the start of this mass transit; the plans was squashed a month before the train was to start running. No feasable explanation was given for the cancellation. It took private citizens such as Penske, Karmanos, and others to put up funds for the light rail up Woodward. Dave Bing didn't meet the deadline last year for the high speed train to pass through Detroit. I think that the grass root community will get this ball rolling and not Corporate entities such as Bing, Pugh, Graholm, and others

**exmotowner** · February-09-10, 08:07 AM

I got to watch it last night and was very impressed. Of course it just made me more homesick. I'm so glad to finally hear it from a reputable source that Detroit is finally going to get light rail. They could have had it back in the 70's if CY had not been a butt head and had to have the people mover. Congratulations Detroit! I'm very happy for you guys. Hopefully it will be the stimulus that moves the city forward. Now if EVERYONE and I do mean EVERYONE could get over that racism and city vs. suburb shit maybe the area can turn around.

**Detroit Stylin** · February-09-10, 09:01 AM

They could have had it back in the 70's if CY had not been a butt head and had to have the people mover.

That was the end result of idiocy on BOTH sides of 8 Mile....

**exmotowner** · February-09-10, 09:28 AM

Yes it was stylin. It was a major cluster fuck at the time. and like you said on BOTH sides!

**jt1** · February-09-10, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by exmotowner

I got to watch it last night and was very impressed. Of course it just made me more homesick. I'm so glad to finally hear it from a reputable source that Detroit is finally going to get light rail. They could have had it back in the 70's if CY had not been a butt head and had to have the people mover. Congratulations Detroit! I'm very happy for you guys. Hopefully it will be the stimulus that moves the city forward. Now if EVERYONE and I do mean EVERYONE could get over that racism and city vs. suburb shit maybe the area can turn around.

Racism is one piece but it is just as much classism. Now that the economy in Michigan is beyond horrible the 'haves' seem a little more willing to listen.

Funny how economic reality forces people to work together.

**jt1** · February-09-10, 09:47 AM

They could have had it back in the 70's if CY had not been a butt head and had to have the people mover.

Incorrect. The people mover was built to take advantage of monies that were available and hope to get something moving.

The federal money was pulled in the 70s because they couldn't get enough communities [[or all?) to agree to the plan. Too much of 'I don't want them to be able to get to my neighborhood' boogeyman bullshit.

**Detroitnerd** · February-09-10, 09:59 AM

I caught the second half and thought it was pretty good. I kept thinking, though, that they cut off Robin Boyle a bit too much. I know his feelings about light rail and Detroit are more complex than what they included.

**stasu1213** · February-09-10, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by jt1

Incorrect. The people mover was built to take advantage of monies that were available and hope to get something moving.

The federal money was pulled in the 70s because they couldn't get enough communities [[or all?) to agree to the plan. Too much of 'I don't want them to be able to get to my neighborhood' boogeyman bullshit.

You have many boogeyman catching the DOT busses in the city of Detroit. The violence that had occured on those busses in the past few years. Passengers have to be subjected to profanity from uncouth people on the busses. I am afraid at times when I catch the DOT. Imagine those type of hooligans catching the same mass transit as people who are going to work, whether to the office or the shop, and people who are transiting to school. I believe that the main problem was those boogeyman being on the same coach. Even back in the eighties. .

**Treelock** · February-09-10, 10:49 AM

I missed the last third of the program [[I recorded it to finish watching later), which was excellent. But I also felt a sense of despair that extends well beyond the geography of Eight Mile Road.

The program used Spain and its investment in high-speed rail -- much of it powered by wind and solar farms -- as a reference point for what could happen. It included interviews with Spanish leaders who said for years, the country looked on in awe of the United States and its commitment to massive investments in national infrastructure networks.

That's great, but the fact is that network of roads, bridges and rails is now badly outdated and falling apart, and we don't have anything close to what Spain -- or China, or Japan or many of the EU nations for that matter -- have built. And every day now, we're reading about how lawmakers in Congress are effectively locked in a paralysis as partisan politics supersedes farsighted policymaking.

Yes, I know the stimulus plan is giving $8 billion to high-speed rail projects, but that's frankly a drop in the bucket compared to what's needed to catch up with emerging global superpowers. And in a toxic political environment where taxes have been thoroughly demonized and investment in the common good identified as the enemy of personal liberty, it's tough to see things getting better.

That's obviously a much broader picture than the M-1 project or any future additions to it that will have to happen in order to make a real impact on Detroit. I remain hopeful about this project, particularly because its construction will be privately financed. But it's only a starting point. Much more is needed.

So the question is this: Can southeast Michigan, which has never been noted for its regional cooperation, overcome its deeply entrenched divisions and mistrust and show the rest of the nation how to lead on transit?

**mikeg19** · February-09-10, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Treelock

So the question is this: Can southeast Michigan, which has never been noted for its regional cooperation, overcome its deeply entrenched divisions and mistrust and show the rest of the nation how to lead on transit?

Unfortunately I doubt it. Just look at the COBO expansion as a perfect recent example.

**professorscott** · February-09-10, 11:21 AM

This is nit-picky but I was a little sad to see the program paint Detroit's current transit system as worse than it is, and as it is it's pretty damned bad. In the early part of the show, they implied that on Woodward transit was infrequent and unreliable, whereas Woodward and Gratiot are the only two lines in Detroit and the 'burbs where it is actually reasonable to use the system.

The inclusion of Spain was to make the basic and very important point: if we as a nation do not upgrade our infrastructure, we are a has-been as an important country. There are many ways to lose your place on the world stage; Britain did it by winning two wars, ironically. We are doing it by letting the whole place go to the dogs. Look at any European city, and then look at American cities.

A lot is said about M1 Rail, which I know a good deal about; maybe too much has been said. But we have to start somewhere, and we can nit-pick M1 Rail to death [[why the curb lane! why so many stops! why don't they work with the city! why! why! why!) or we can give it a chance to succeed and to try to get some damned positive vibe going on around here. I vote give it a chance. I only wish Mayor Bing would take this issue seriously, which he does not, so far as I have been able to tell. Where are you, Mr. Mayor? We need you here!

**rb336** · February-09-10, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Lowell

IMO, for Woodward to work the rail needs to run from the river to Pontiac. Well we are about to see and I hope the starter plan is a huge success.

the plans are for the M1 rail to be built in phases - first to Grand Blvd, using the outside lanes, then to 8 Mile [[more than likely running in the center) and ultimately to M-59