Michigan cuts 243 road projects.

[Hermod]

That project should be DOA. Meet you out in the exurban prairie in 30 years and you tell me why it was necessary ...

What if the future of the metro area has M59 as a main street and south of 8 mile is a cluster of ruins?

[Detroitnerd]

What if the future of the metro area has M59 as a main street and south of 8 mile is a cluster of ruins?

It is very unlikely that we will have the endless supplies of petroleum necessary to run Hall Road in 2040. Detroit and its inner-ring suburbs stand a better chance.

And you must have been out of town for some time. When suburban folks want to wag a finger at Detroit, they no longer chuff about Eight Mile Road. Most suburbanites have written off everything south of I-696, or, more recently, Hall Road itself.

[DetroitPlanner]

Road users do not pay the overall cost of the system. According to one recent study, user fees [[primarily fuel taxes and licensing) paid just 51% of the cost of roads in 2007.
http://www.subsidyscope.com/transpor...hways/funding/

A national study does not reflect how things are in Michigan. Michigan is only one of 50 states.

If you notice the decreases in user fees are correlated to poor economic times.

Finally, you also need to take a look at how the bonds are being paid off. In most cases funding to pay off bonds comes from user-fees. Bonds are not a real source, but rather are used as a vehicle to access funds faster.

[Detroitnerd]

A national study does not reflect how things are in Michigan. Michigan is only one of 50 states.

If you notice the decreases in user fees are correlated to poor economic times.

Finally, you also need to take a look at how the bonds are being paid off. In most cases funding to pay off bonds comes from user-fees. Bonds are not a real source, but rather are used as a vehicle to access funds faster.

Oh, jeez. So when I take out a loan to pay for my lavish lifestyle, I'm not going into debt, I'm just accessing next year's pay faster?

[Hermod]

Oh, jeez. So when I take out a loan to pay for my lavish lifestyle, I'm not going into debt, I'm just accessing next year's pay faster?

No, but when you want to buy a house, you don't save for thirty years, then pay cash, you make a down payment and take out a mortgage now.

[Detroitnerd]

No, but when you want to buy a house, you don't save for thirty years, then pay cash, you make a down payment and take out a mortgage now.

And that's not debt?

[Bobl]

No money for roads? Could have fooled me. We are building some fine ones in Iraq, Afghanistan, and soon, Haiti.

[Bcscott]

Last year I drove from my home in Bay City to Salem, Virginia then later in the fall I drove to Morris, IL pulling a car on a trailer. So I hit parts of Michigan Ohio, West Virginia, Virginia, Indiana, and Illinois. We have the worst roads in the region bar-none. But that doesn't mean I'm in favor of higher gas taxes because it won't solve the problem. Ever since I was a little kid it seemed there were two seasons in Michigan; winter and construction. Why is that? Why is the highway system in this state perpetually under construction?

Is it the gargantuan load limits we allow compared to other states, the speed limit, the f-ing salt that rusts our cars out? It just seems that unless underlying problems are resolved, throwing more money at the problem isn't going to fix it. I don't want my taxes raised if we're just going to end up in the same place year after year.

[Hermod]

And that's not debt?

Yes, but responsible debt. It may be the right thing to do to issue revenue bonds or general obligation bonds to get the project done now.

[Hermod]

Last year I drove from my home in Bay City to Salem, Virginia then later in the fall I drove to Morris, IL pulling a car on a trailer. So I hit parts of Michigan Ohio, West Virginia, Virginia, Indiana, and Illinois. We have the worst roads in the region bar-none. But that doesn't mean I'm in favor of higher gas taxes because it won't solve the problem. Ever since I was a little kid it seemed there were two seasons in Michigan; winter and construction. Why is that? Why is the highway system in this state perpetually under construction?

Is it the gargantuan load limits we allow compared to other states, the speed limit, the f-ing salt that rusts our cars out? It just seems that unless underlying problems are resolved, throwing more money at the problem isn't going to fix it. I don't want my taxes raised if we're just going to end up in the same place year after year.

It is the frost/defrost cycle in the road sub-bed plus the fact that much of SE Michigan is former swamp land. It took a lot of gravel out of the Rochester area moving in those big triple bottom DeTaverner gravel trucks to fill in the area between 8 and 16 mile. Rochester is almost all gravel, being the place the glaciers left a moraine in the last ice age. All through the 40s, 50s, and 60s, they mined the Rochester area for gravel.

In Virginia, the ground rarely freezes more than an inch deep.

[Detroitnerd]

Yes, but responsible debt. It may be the right thing to do to issue revenue bonds or general obligation bonds to get the project done now.

Oh, I see. So the roads pay for themselves. Except when they don't. Or when states can't match. And except when states have to take on "responsible" debt [[helping fatten those suffering banksters) to pay for them this year, hoping next year's revenues will make up the difference.

Increasingly, this "user fees pay for it all" stuff looks dodgy. And dressing it up with appealing analogies and "responsible" language doesn't really help matters.

[Hermod]

Oh, I see. So the roads pay for themselves. Except when they don't. Or when states can't match. And except when states have to take on "responsible" debt [[helping fatten those suffering banksters) to pay for them this year, hoping next year's revenues will make up the difference.

Increasingly, this "user fees pay for it all" stuff looks dodgy. And dressing it up with appealing analogies and "responsible" language doesn't really help matters.

If the highway fuel taxes make the debt p[ayments plus the current expenditures, the roads pay for themselves. If money is taken out of other budget lines in the state budget to spend on roads or reduction in road bonds, then they don't

[Bcscott]

I'm sure the frost cycle has a lot to do with it but doesn't it freeze in Ohio, Illinois, and Indiana as well? I'm simply saying if we have a root problem such as a gravel base that's prone to shifting caused by frost we shouldn't exacerbate the problem by having higher speed/load limits and salt. Then keep throwing money at it knowing full well we'll need to repair the same area in a decade or so. Its crazy, roads in my town that were repaired five years ago are already showing some pretty significant wear.

[Detroitnerd]

If the highway fuel taxes make the debt p[ayments plus the current expenditures, the roads pay for themselves. If money is taken out of other budget lines in the state budget to spend on roads or reduction in road bonds, then they don't

This conversation is worse than a roundabout in the UP. Just keeps going! And all because we would rather preserve the myth that roads pay for themselves.

Actually, this reminds me of an old Hee-Haw sketch.

MAN: So you're saying the roads pay for themselves.

BARBER: Yes.

MAN: That's good.

BARBER: No, that's bad.

MAN: That's BAD?

BARBER: Yeah, because the state has to match the funds.

MAN: Oh, that's bad.

BARBER: No, that's GOOD.

MAN: Why?

BARBER: Because then the state gets twice as much.

MAN: Oh, that's GOOD.

BARBER: No, that's BAD.

MAN: Bad?

BARBER: Yeah, because we may not have enough money to match.

MAN: Oh, that's bad.

BARBER: No, that's GOOD.

MAN: Why?

BARBER: Because we can always take on some debt to match the funds.

MAN: Oh, that's good.

BARBER: No, that's BAD.

MAN: Why?

BARBER: Because we have to sell bonds to come up with the funds to match.

MAN: Oh, that's bad.

BARBER: No, that's GOOD.

MAN: What the ... WHY?

etc. etc. ad absurdum

[ghettopalmetto]

It is the frost/defrost cycle in the road sub-bed plus the fact that much of SE Michigan is former swamp land.

Much of SE Michigan consists of lacustrine soils deposited by Lake Erie, which was much larger after the glaciers melted 10,000 years ago. This is the same geology that dominates in Northern Ohio, which has far better roads than the Detroit area.

In Virginia, the ground rarely freezes more than an inch deep.

Even in the mountains, where Salem is located?

[DetroitPlanner]

Detroit Nerd, I found this source for you to read at your lesure on Act 51. You really shouldn't be so critical of things you don't know about, it makes you sound like a... well a Detroit Nerd.

You're the only one saying the roads pay for themselves.

[Hermod]

I'm sure the frost cycle has a lot to do with it but doesn't it freeze in Ohio, Illinois, and Indiana as well? I'm simply saying if we have a root problem such as a gravel base that's prone to shifting caused by frost we shouldn't exacerbate the problem by having higher speed/load limits and salt. Then keep throwing money at it knowing full well we'll need to repair the same area in a decade or so. Its crazy, roads in my town that were repaired five years ago are already showing some pretty significant wear.

Mound Road from 8 to 12 mile was always in need of repair. That road produced potholes like rabbits reproduce.

[Hermod]

Much of SE Michigan consists of lacustrine soils deposited by Lake Erie, which was much larger after the glaciers melted 10,000 years ago. This is the same geology that dominates in Northern Ohio, which has far better roads than the Detroit area.



Even in the mountains, where Salem is located?

Salem is not located in the mountains. It is located at the head of the Shenandoah Valley. The frost doesn't penetrate that deeply there because you have long periods in the winter with a high of 40 and a low of 28. You just don't have the sustained cold to freeze the ground deeply. I spent four years in the valley while I was in college.

[mjs]

I hear you on the truck weights and salt. You don't even have to look as far as Ohio to see better techniques. The Northern UP primarily uses sand because of environmental restrictions making it difficult to plow salty snow into lake Superior and look at how much better their road conditions are with so much less construction.

MDOT rightfully says that the repeated freezing and unfreezing and damage from repeated plowing greatly augments the truck damage. Expanding ice puts enormous pressure on anything its under or in. So, the solution is simple. Quit unfreezing what will only freeze once again. Lets leave a light layer of snow and cover it with sand. While it will require longer breaking distances than plowed roads graveled in salt, it will be less than salted roads that become covered in refrozen water or black ice. The loss of traction is more consistent so drivers will adjust just as they always have done in the UP and just like the UP, the rains will clear it off to the side in the spring.

Hopefully, this is our chance to demand common sense. I'll be writing my State Reps in the next few days telling them I support a higher gas tax only if the legislation also includes lower truck weights and preferably with less destructive salt.

[Todd_Scott]

A national study does not reflect how things are in Michigan. Michigan is only one of 50 states.

The point was Hermod's statement about roads paying for themselves was wrong. There is a great deal of similarity among states since all receive federal transportation funding for highways, which is not all user fees. Michigan may not be 51% user fee, but it certainly isn't 100%.

Finally, you also need to take a look at how the bonds are being paid off. In most cases funding to pay off bonds comes from user-fees. Bonds are not a real source, but rather are used as a vehicle to access funds faster.

Perhaps it's most cases, but it's not all cases. One Oakland County sprawl town is using a TIF to pay off road construction bonds -- not a user fees.

[Detroitnerd]

Detroit Nerd, I found this source for you to read at your lesure on Act 51. You really shouldn't be so critical of things you don't know about, it makes you sound like a... well a Detroit Nerd.

You're the only one saying the roads pay for themselves.

Awwww, that's very thoughtful of you DP. But don't worry your poor, little head over what I think. I know roads don't pay for themselves. If you had paid a wee bit more attention, you'd have noticed that somebody else in this thread has argued that "roads pay for themselves." And, in an inversion of Goebbels, I'm trying to disprove the lie by repeating it.

Sorry to bunch those panties, DP.

[Detroitnerd]

Just got the bulletin from the County Road Association. Not pretty.

Returning to the Stone Age
County Road Agencies in Michigan Suffer from Lack of Funding

Lansing, Mich-- The County Road Association of Michigan [[CRAM) today announced the results of their annual survey to determine the state of Michigan’s crumbling county road and bridge network. Over the past three years, the number of county road agencies returning paved roads to gravel has more than tripled.
Thirty eight counties have now returned more than 100 miles of paved roads to gravel; approximately 35 miles in 2009 alone. Results indicate that by 2010, half of Michigan’s county road agencies will be faced with the decision of moving backward to maintain their infrastructure.

[Hermod]

Just got the bulletin from the County Road Association. Not pretty.

Returning to the Stone Age
County Road Agencies in Michigan Suffer from Lack of Funding

Lansing, Mich-- The County Road Association of Michigan [[CRAM) today announced the results of their annual survey to determine the state of Michigan’s crumbling county road and bridge network. Over the past three years, the number of county road agencies returning paved roads to gravel has more than tripled.
Thirty eight counties have now returned more than 100 miles of paved roads to gravel; approximately 35 miles in 2009 alone. Results indicate that by 2010, half of Michigan’s county road agencies will be faced with the decision of moving backward to maintain their infrastructure.

Sometime in the late 1950s, Macomb County "depaved" 26 Mile Rd from Gratiot to Van Dyke.

[DanFromDetroit]

Perhaps this comment about passenger rail being unprofitable is supposed to end all further discussion of passenger rail. But it begs a much more important question: How did this happen?

For the answer to that question, we probably have to go back a century. In 1910, roads were actual "sinkholes" much of the year. To travel by road, even in an up-to-date motorcar, was a serious hardship in wet or snowy weather. People did not drive long distance, whether by car or horsepower.

Because there was no other alternative to railroads and streetcars, the public was concerned about the "traction trusts" and the "octopus" -- and these became some of the most heavily regulated industries in the country, suspect to many.

The biggest projects in the United States in the 1910s were road-building projects. Very similar in the 1920s. By the end of the 1920s, most of the roads in the United States were so improved that people could drive longer distances.

Because of these subsidies for road-building, the railroads and streetcars couldn't compete. By the 1920s, the Detroit United Railway, which boasted one of the largest electrified light rail networks in the country, sold its city operations to Detroit. [[It's a good thing, too, as city-owned streetcar lines couldn't be bought by National City Lines!)

After the advent of reliable passenger air travel, the federal government also started subsidizing air travel, further hurting rail transportation.

By the 1960s, the country's national passenger rail lines were totally unprofitable. Carefully regulated by federal government, hurt by the subsidies to other modes of travel, they were begging to be relieved of the responsibility of moving passengers, which had been so profitable before the subsidies started flowing to competing modes.

After 1970, when Amtrak took over those unprofitable responsibilities for the big railroads, subsidies for rail continued to fall. By 2000, government subsidies to rail had fallen by one-half, while they had risen 100 percent for roads, and 150 percent for air.

So now it's very easy and convenient to say that "passenger rail is a sinkhole for money," but it ignores that our government has carefully guaranteed that fact with subsidies for air and road, and by deliberately underfunding rail transportation so it cannot enjoy economies of scale.

But with volatile fuel prices, more people ARE riding rail than they were a few years ago. And, going into a century of uncertain energy supplies, we'd do well to consider the benefits of a mode that uses less real estate, and can move more people more economically.

Hey - I have to run to the store to get some milk and a pizza, I sure am glad they killed the road projects got that light rail going!

The light rail works in Europe and large concentrated population centers in the US because of the population distribution in relation to businesses. I currently live in in Europe and take the train to work every day. It works here because city planners have been relying on mass transit for 50+ years to lay out communities and business parks developed in the boom times around that plan. If it had been instituted around the same time in Metro Detroit you'd see a drastic change in the neighborhood layout and the distribution of business centers. Instead since we relied so heavily on the automobile we have unsustainable sprawl in the northern and western suburbs. For a rail system to work here you'd have to bulldoze whole cities and concentrate the rest around hubs of a rail system. To think that's a possibility is both foolish and unrealistic. They should take every dollar earmarked for what I like to call the "monorail" stabilize existing automotive infrastructure. If it's not done soon we'll have lightly used rail stations and no way to drive to the parking lots.

[Detroitnerd]

Hey - I have to run to the store to get some milk and a pizza, I sure am glad they killed the road projects got that light rail going!

The light rail works in Europe and large concentrated population centers in the US because of the population distribution in relation to businesses. I currently live in in Europe and take the train to work every day. It works here because city planners have been relying on mass transit for 50+ years to lay out communities and business parks developed in the boom times around that plan. If it had been instituted around the same time in Metro Detroit you'd see a drastic change in the neighborhood layout and the distribution of business centers. Instead since we relied so heavily on the automobile we have unsustainable sprawl in the northern and western suburbs. For a rail system to work here you'd have to bulldoze whole cities and concentrate the rest around hubs of a rail system. To think that's a possibility is both foolish and unrealistic. They should take every dollar earmarked for what I like to call the "monorail" stabilize existing automotive infrastructure. If it's not done soon we'll have lightly used rail stations and no way to drive to the parking lots.

Perhaps you missed it, but we HAVE been bulldozing whole areas. Unfortunately, unlike Europe, they're the areas with the densest street network, where we used to have our light rail.

To say that we can't do it because it was never done and try "more of the same" sounds more foolish to me.