Creating Density in Downtown

[Hermod]

And I'm sure you have well-documented these perceived "needs" that receive funding. Did you ever stop to think that Michigan might not have so many "needs" if MDOT weren't busy constantly building new freeways in cornfields?

From ASCE: http://www.infrastructurereportcard....ct-sheet/roads

The same link also shows that Detroit is the 7th-most congested metropolitan area in the nation, contrary to what you have argued above.

The Highway Trust Fund isn't "bankrupt" in the sense that Social Security could be bankrupt. The Highway Trust Fund is a "lockbox" to assure that gas tax funds are only spent for the purpose. What ASCE is saying [[and I is an inguneer) is that the perceived need for highway rehab and bridge replacement in the future will exceed expected revenues from the gas tax and that lack of new revenues will allow further deterioration of the highway infrastructure. The HTF Doesn't "owe" anybody anything.

While the intervening county side might not be heavily developed, the purpose of a freeway may be to connect point A and point B without regard to the fact that the intervening countryside might be cornfields, desert, or dense forest. Freeways are built based on traffic demand, not on the density of roadside development. Urban and suburban freeways will have more frequent on/off ramps than will a freeway through less populated country.

[ghettopalmetto]

The Highway Trust Fund isn't "bankrupt" in the sense that Social Security could be bankrupt. The Highway Trust Fund is a "lockbox" to assure that gas tax funds are only spent for the purpose. What ASCE is saying [[and I is an inguneer) is that the perceived need for highway rehab and bridge replacement in the future will exceed expected revenues from the gas tax and that lack of new revenues will allow further deterioration of the highway infrastructure.

The ASCE link clearly states that the Highway Trust Fund is depleted. Please read.

According to the Federal Highway Administration, the balance of the Fund at the beginning of December 2009 was $ 6,068,560,867. This includes a total of $15 billion transferred to the Fund from the General Fund at the end of FY07 and FY08.
Do the math.

[Hermod]

The ASCE link clearly states that the Highway Trust Fund is depleted. Please read.

According to the Federal Highway Administration, the balance of the Fund at the beginning of December 2009 was $ 6,068,560,867. This includes a total of $15 billion transferred to the Fund from the General Fund at the end of FY07 and FY08.
Do the math.

GP: Click on the state reports. Check North Dakota and compare it ti Michigan. Except for the congestion of urban highways, the two reports read almost the same.

I am a civil engineer and a former member of ASCE. ASCE is an advocacy group which wants you to shut down every single other government program to dircet all budget moneys to construction of highways, bridges, damns, water treatment facilities, waste water treatment facilities and parks and recreation facilities [[construction thereof).

If you look at the position of Detroit [[8th in congestion) begs the question of "how many metro areas were measured?" Was it ten, twenty, thirty, one hundred?

Worthy of note is that Detroit was very close to Miami which shares with the Detroit metro area a square grid of section line roads and a dispersed location of employment destinations.

.

[ghettopalmetto]

GP: Click on the state reports. Check North Dakota and compare it ti Michigan. Except for the congestion of urban highways, the two reports read almost the same.

I am a civil engineer and a former member of ASCE. ASCE is an advocacy group which wants you to shut down every single other government program to dircet all budget moneys to construction of highways, bridges, damns, water treatment facilities, waste water treatment facilities and parks and recreation facilities [[construction thereof).

If you look at the position of Detroit [[8th in congestion) begs the question of "how many metro areas were measured?" Was it ten, twenty, thirty, one hundred?

Worthy of note is that Detroit was very close to Miami which shares with the Detroit metro area a square grid of section line roads and a dispersed location of employment destinations.

.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

[Long Lake]

Arlington, Virginia, in my opinion, has done an incredible job of balancing these needs.

Arlington, VA hasn't done a thing.

They're just fortunate to be in the strongest job market in America, and happen to have the Pentagon and two Metro lines.

Arlington couldn't become a failed city, no matter how hard it tried.

IMO, Arlington, while successful, is about as interesting as Troy or Auburn Hills, and has about 1% of the character of a place like Ferndale, to say nothing of Detroit.

[ghettopalmetto]

Arlington, VA hasn't done a thing.

They're just fortunate to be in the strongest job market in America, and happen to have the Pentagon and two Metro lines.

Arlington couldn't become a failed city, no matter how hard it tried.

IMO, Arlington, while successful, is about as interesting as Troy or Auburn Hills, and has about 1% of the character of a place like Ferndale, to say nothing of Detroit.

Bullshit. Why doesn't Arlington look like Fairfax County? Why do young talented people opt to live there instead of Outside the Beltway? Why are housing values, for comparable homes, higher in Arlington than in the outer suburbs? Why are companies and people locating there instead of your beloved generic Troy and Auburn Hills, which can be found in any major metropolitan area in America?

The fact is, Arlington *had* failed, or maybe you've selectively deleted the 1980s from your memory.

Detroit had the strongest job market in America in the 1940s. Does that mean Detroit could never have failed?

[Long Lake]

Arlington County actually has a higher population density than most large cities in the U.S., including Detroit--somewhere above 9000 persons per square mile.

Arlington has higher population density than some cities, not most. The major urban centers all have higher density than Arlington.

Arlington is a suburban community, not an urban one. Much of Arlington doesn't even have sidewalks. It only has decent density because of two corridors of large apartment complexes.

[Patrick]

Arlington couldn't become a failed city, no matter how hard it tried.

I live in Arlington now and I can say, as many have, that it was planned poorly. This was admitted by the planners iof the 60s who ruined Rosslyn by not mixing in enough residential properties. It is fortunate to have excellent public transportation as well as a lot of gov jobs and a large number of unskilled workers willing to work for cheap.

Arlington is a suburban community, not an urban one.

Rosslyn is pretty damn urban to me and so is Courthouse and Ballston. But that is where it stops.

[Long Lake]

Most of Arlington does look like Fairfax, but slightly older and denser, because it's inner suburban, not outer suburban. But most of North and South Arlington is pretty much like Fairfax.

I have spent a good deal of time in North Arlington, and most streets have no sidewalks. Much less walkable than, say, Royal Oak. Nice homes, though.

Why do young talented people opt to live there instead of Outside the Beltway?

Because young, childless folks tend to live in apartment buildings and shared homes in cities and inner suburbs. This is true everywhere in the U.S. Why do young folks in metro Detroit live in Royal Oak instead of Macomb Township?

Why are housing values, for comparable homes, higher in Arlington than in the outer suburbs?

Location, location. Why are housing values for comparable homes in Huntington Woods or Birmingham higher than in Novi or Oakland Township?

Why are companies and people locating there instead of your beloved generic Troy and Auburn Hills, which can be found in any major metropolitan area in America?

This is a false comparison. Metro DC has a much stronger economy than metro Detroit. There is nothing specific to Arlington that gives it a comparative advantage relative to other similar DC jurisdictions. It's not like you go into Alexandria or Falls Church and housing values or desirability drops.

The fact is, Arlington *had* failed, or maybe you've selectively deleted the 1980s from your memory.

Please tell me how Arlington "failed' in the 1980's. This should be an interesting explanation, considering that Metro construction concluded in the 1980's, and along with the Reagan-era military buildup, led to the biggest construction boom in Arlington history [[Pentagon City, Crystal City, Courthouse Square, Ballston, etc.).

Arlington is just really, really fortunate to be located where it is. If the Pentagon and all its suppliers move to Highland Park, the same thing would eventually happen.

There are 10,000 well-paid federal employees in Crystal City alone. If you think Crystal City is someone more urban than Big Beaver Road just because the buildings are closer together [[but no streetlife whatsoever, and every building has attached parking), then be my guest. I would disagree.

[Patrick]

Density doesn't always equal urban...am I right?

[Hermod]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

OK, then I will try again.

1. The metric used by the ASCE to measure "congestion" is commute time.

2. Commute time is a function of both commuting distance and adequacy of the road net.

3. The Detroit and Miami metro areas are both laid out on a square grid. The fact that the two cities are on the ASCE list is a function not of the congestion of the individual roads, but is more a function of the locations of residences and workplaces.

4. Detroit metro can have a person living in Southfield with a job in Mt Clemens while a person living in mt Clemens works in Southfield. Each has a long commute even though the roads may not be all that congested [[cars per lane per hour).

5. ASCE is a professional organization and also an advocacy group. If you look at their site, go to their state by state map, and click on a couple of states. Every state has major deficiencies by their standards.

6. ASCE says that the HTF [[as its current and projected levels) is inadequate to fund all of the construction that ASCE feels "necessary" in the time frame [[alos necessary to give employment to their member engineers and engineering firms).