Dequindre Cut...Open When?

[Johnlodge]

You graffiti apologists just reinforce the general disrespect for other people's property that is already rampant. It's vandalism, plain and simple If it's not yours, don't fuck it up, how difficult is that? And why should there be a "legal" wall? You really think the people spraying this shit are going to say "oh, a legal wall, now I don't have to disrespect things that aren't mine!" How about the graffiti "artists" put a wall up in one of the vacant lots and spray on that? They can spend a fun day laying brick together, and when they're done they can spray their "art" all over it without destroying public property.

[GREENTROIT]

Well because somebody owns that vacant lot and we wouldn't want to harm other peoples property by building a wall on it now would we????

And most graffiti artists don't touch private property. It's sort of an unspoken rule that only public property should be touched. And as far as public property goes, the art should fit with its surroundings...

[Johnlodge]

Well because somebody owns that vacant lot and we wouldn't want to harm other peoples property by building a wall on it now would we????

And most graffiti artists don't touch private property. It's sort of an unspoken rule that only public property should be touched. And as far as public property goes, the art should fit with its surroundings...

Hey, you're starting to get the idea of respecting things that don't belong to you. Public property doesn't belong to you either, though, so unless you have the permission of the public, IE the local municipality, then your "art" doesn't belong on that either, because our tax dollars pay for it.

[gravitymachine]

And most graffiti artists don't touch private property. It's sort of an unspoken rule that only public property should be touched....

on that first point, you must be living in a different city than i am [[detroit), and on the second, what makes public property so deserving of the honor?

[detmich]

Hey, you're starting to get the idea of respecting things that don't belong to you. Public property doesn't belong to you either, though, so unless you have the permission of the public, IE the local municipality, then your "art" doesn't belong on that either, because our tax dollars pay for it.

How about taggers get together and buy some thing of their own to tag on? Or is that too middle class for their sensibilities? Greentroit and Django you are simply acting as apologists for vandals. No rationalization, no clarification required. Whether you think it looks nice is irrelevant. Vandalising other's property is aggresive, illegal, antisocial behavior. You may enjoy it, much as a john enjoys his time with a prostitute, but it doesn't make it right.

[vintagesoul]

How about taggers get together and buy some thing of their own to tag on? Or is that too middle class for their sensibilities? Greentroit and Django you are simply acting as apologists for vandals. No rationalization, no clarification required. Whether you think it looks nice is irrelevant. Vandalising other's property is aggresive, illegal, antisocial behavior. You may enjoy it, much as a john enjoys his time with a prostitute, but it doesn't make it right.

wow. your ignorance is impressive.

count me in as an apologist. and show me the research that points to the type of graffiti that we are referring to as being "antisocial" or "agressive". there's neither of those qualities involved. the people who do that sort of art only search for a place to do it. end of story.

[detmich]

You're right, I take it back.

[detmich]

I see your point, I want to invite these guys over for dinner, they're just looking for a place to create their art.



Vsoul- you avoided the reality of the matter. Answer the question I asked instead of trying to attack me. WHy don't taggers get together, buy their own place, and tag away on it?

[vintagesoul]

You graffiti apologists just reinforce the general disrespect for other people's property that is already rampant. It's vandalism, plain and simple If it's not yours, don't fuck it up, how difficult is that? And why should there be a "legal" wall? You really think the people spraying this shit are going to say "oh, a legal wall, now I don't have to disrespect things that aren't mine!" How about the graffiti "artists" put a wall up in one of the vacant lots and spray on that? They can spend a fun day laying brick together, and when they're done they can spray their "art" all over it without destroying public property.

Thank you for the chuckle. Great suggestion, I'd love to hear your solution for our homeless population. Perhaps we could build a wall...say near 8 mile...

lol sorry, I couldn't resist. C'mon, I'm willing to listen to real ideas and solutions to problems, but the people on here who seem to have a personal vendetta against people who do graff is just incredible. I can't possibly take you seriously.

as a detroit resident, I personally hope the walls in the cut become fully legal and that there are more legal walls allowed in the city. i love graff, i look for it everywhere i go.

[detmich]

You are so cool. I hope I can be as free and easy as you are one day.

Can I borrow your fixed gear please?

[vintagesoul]

I see your point, I want to invite these guys over for dinner, they're just looking for a place to create their art.



Vsoul- you avoided the reality of the matter. Answer the question I asked instead of trying to attack me. WHy don't taggers get together, buy their own place, and tag away on it?

You're ridiculous. Those pictures only confirm your ignorance. No one in their right mind would group actual gang writings and hate as part of what I am talking about. Do you see that in the cut? Do you think that's what we are talking about? Do you think I support that? If you do you are really even more ignorant than I thought.

If you want to have a real discussion, where you can bring up real arguments that I can take seriously, let me know.

[vintagesoul]

You are so cool. I hope I can be as free and easy as you are one day.

Can I borrow your fixed gear please?

Maybe, but only if you ask me nicely.

[Johnlodge]

wow. your ignorance is impressive.

count me in as an apologist. and show me the research that points to the type of graffiti that we are referring to as being "antisocial" or "agressive". there's neither of those qualities involved. the people who do that sort of art only search for a place to do it. end of story.

Bullshit, it doesn't matter if it's art or not. Art is subjective. And unless everybody who owns public property, IE the public, agrees to allowing you to spraypaint all over it, then it is vandalism. I like certain kinds of art too, I graduated from art school. I'm not going to come over to your house and do whatever I want on it, or on your city's municipal buildings as though I have some kind of right to do so. It is vandalism, end of story.

[Johnlodge]

You're ridiculous. Those pictures only confirm your ignorance. No one in their right mind would group actual gang writings and hate as part of what I am talking about. Do you see that in the cut? Do you think that's what we are talking about? Do you think I support that? If you do you are really even more ignorant than I thought.

If you want to have a real discussion, where you can bring up real arguments that I can take seriously, let me know.

What does resorting to personal attacks confirm about the poster?

[vintagesoul]

Bullshit, it doesn't matter if it's art or not. Art is subjective. And unless everybody who owns public property, IE the public, agrees to allowing you to spraypaint all over it, then it is vandalism. I like certain kinds of art too, I graduated from art school. I'm not going to come over to your house and do whatever I want on it, or on your city's municipal buildings as though I have some kind of right to do so. It is vandalism, end of story.

You're right, it is subjective.

I don't see any of the artists I'm referring to putting pieces on:

a. Municipal Buildings
b. People's houses

So, where did you come up with that argument?

Here's my stance - graffiti should remain illegal as it is. There should be legal walls. A lot of them. The more the merrier. The cut should be a legal place to paint. That's how I feel about it.

The people who create that other garbage the detmich posted should be arrested for gang-related activity. Period. It has nothing to do with art, clearly, and he was only posting it in a lame attempt to make an argument that graff is not art. Everyone else can see that is clearly not what I am supporting.

Now, I'm done bickering with you two. If you have VALID arguments about the cut not being legal and against legal walls or anything else I am supporting here, please let me know.

[vintagesoul]

What does resorting to personal attacks confirm about the poster?

Oh it's not personal.

[detmsp]

You're ridiculous. Those pictures only confirm your ignorance. No one in their right mind would group actual gang writings and hate as part of what I am talking about. Do you see that in the cut? Do you think that's what we are talking about? Do you think I support that? If you do you are really even more ignorant than I thought.

If you want to have a real discussion, where you can bring up real arguments that I can take seriously, let me know.

yeah you do see that in the cut. sure, a lot of it is pretty cool looking, but what about the a-holes who tagged the sign with the rendering of the project and the emergency phones? the problem is you can't find a way to allow the stuff that is "art" and ban the stuff that isn't.

[vintagesoul]

yeah you do see that in the cut. sure, a lot of it is pretty cool looking, but what about the a-holes who tagged the sign with the rendering of the project and the emergency phones? the problem is you can't find a way to allow the stuff that is "art" and ban the stuff that isn't.

This is true. You're absolutely correct - but my understanding is that there are supposed to be regular police bike patrols. If people are doing *anything* illegal, including writing on things they are not supposed to, then that should be dealt with.

Writing on things illegally is a crime - yes. So are lots of things...like being mugged. You can't ban all those things either. They still happen. Even though they are not supposed to.

I cannot agree that banning graff from the cut completely is the only answer. It won't prevent those things you mentioned from happening, and without anything else on the walls I think it will look even worse and stick out even more.

By making the walls legal you will encourage some of the best artists in detroit to come out and put their work on those walls. It will encourage ever-changing scenery and something interesting for people to stop and watch...which will ultimately encourage people to spend more time down there. That is the goal right? For people to spend a lot of time down there?

[detmich]

You're right, it is subjective.

I don't see any of the artists I'm referring to putting pieces on:

a. Municipal Buildings
b. People's houses

So, where did you come up with that argument?

Here's my stance - graffiti should remain illegal as it is. There should be legal walls. A lot of them. The more the merrier. The cut should be a legal place to paint. That's how I feel about it.

The people who create that other garbage the detmich posted should be arrested for gang-related activity. Period. It has nothing to do with art, clearly, and he was only posting it in a lame attempt to make an argument that graff is not art. Everyone else can see that is clearly not what I am supporting.

Now, I'm done bickering with you two. If you have VALID arguments about the cut not being legal and against legal walls or anything else I am supporting here, please let me know.

Great idea! But may I propose a hypothetical? Just a little "what if" for us to bounce back and forth. Okay, let's say that I like to draw graffiti, and I want to draw my graffiti on the legal walls. Now, my subjects are a little off color. I like to portray naked women being lybched, big titted ones at that. Then, Sometimes I like to spray paint "fuck all kikes", but I lay the words out in the form of a swastika. Sometimes I write "coons go back to africa" or "honky needs his ass kicked", all in the most creative manner imaginable and in a font that is aestethically pleasing. Of course, I'' akways have really cool graphics to go with the lettering, you know to help tell the story. Would that be cool too, or would you think that was not cool at all.

How about if the gangs want to start "tagging" on those walls. Would that be cool, a little MS-13 action up against the LKs or Bloods? Or, would the cool folks, you know, folks like you, would you guys keep all that under control? In other words, would you cool guys censor what got put on the walls? Or would it be open season, and anything goes. Because I want to knowwhere you really cool guys draw the line between hip and not so cool to have around.

[vintagesoul]

Great idea! But may I propose a hypothetical? Just a little "what if" for us to bounce back and forth. Okay, let's say that I like to draw graffiti, and I want to draw my graffiti on the legal walls. Now, my subjects are a little off color. I like to portray naked women being lybched, big titted ones at that. Then, Sometimes I like to spray paint "fuck all kikes", but I lay the words out in the form of a swastika. Sometimes I write "coons go back to africa" or "honky needs his ass kicked", all in the most creative manner imaginable and in a font that is aestethically pleasing. Of course, I'' akways have really cool graphics to go with the lettering, you know to help tell the story. Would that be cool too, or would you think that was not cool at all.

How about if the gangs want to start "tagging" on those walls. Would that be cool, a little MS-13 action up against the LKs or Bloods? Or, would the cool folks, you know, folks like you, would you guys keep all that under control? In other words, would you cool guys censor what got put on the walls? Or would it be open season, and anything goes. Because I want to knowwhere you really cool guys draw the line between hip and not so cool to have around.

First of all, hate speech is illegal last time I checked, and so are all of the other things you mentioned. Soooooo if I am not mistaken those would not be permitted on a legal wall.

Here's the answer to your hypothetical:

1. That stuff doesn't really go on as it is now when no one is policing what goes on those walls, the writers do it themselves.
2. As part of having a legal wall, there can be rules about what type of content can be posted, and those rules can be enforced by law enforcement.
3. If that sort of content is posted beyond what law enforcement can enforce, then it should be buffed over, just straight up rolled over with solid color paint.

Now, do I think that all rules are going to prevent all things evil? No. I would never say that. However, I think that it is completely feasible to create and enforce rules for a legal wall. I don't know if you know it, but other cities do it and it has had a positive impact.

Also, I can see you're trying to be offensive on purpose. Good job. I hope you think you are accomplishing something by saying those things. It wasn't even necessary to spell them out - you could have simply said "offensive pornography" or "racial slurs" etc. I think your attempt to make a point on this was weak.

Just to be clear - I'm not making any accusations of your character, detmich, but rather the words you have posted are weak and again, ignorant. The lengths you go to try and prove a point are impressive yet you still fail.

Saying nasty things won't change my mind. That sort of thing may happen in all reality, but it's all about taking in the good with the bad. I wholeheartedly believe that in looking at the cut in the past four years I have never seen the events you describe above take place in higher volume than the type of graff I am speaking of.

I don't think the type of people who do that sort of writing are going to leave their comfy hoods to come all the way down here to put that up on a legal wall. Why would they bother? Do you think after years and years of doing things the way they have been done, that making it legal to paint on those walls is going to force all the absolute creeps to come out and suddenly outnumber the people who do art? I mean, really?

Realistically, it's easier for them to do it by their homes - on their gang territory if you will. And gosh, I don't think I've seen most of that stuff you listed anywhere in this city...heh. That's pretty bold of you to start throwing around possibilities that aren't even really happening in real life. [I drive around and take pictures of all the graff I can find - good AND bad] Why would they start now? I think the worst thing I've ever seen on the wall is the cheesy cholo crap over in southwest and maybe that arabic slur you posted earlier. Which is just part of life. I don't like it, but I'm not going to associate talented writers with it, and to do so is just plain ignorant. They are clearly not of the same breed and you know it.

They are two independent things, and are only related by the fact they are done with spray paint on a wall. The type of people who do art and the type of people who write hate speech are not one and the same.

Any other hypotheticals you would like to discuss?

[vintagesoul]

Because I want to knowwhere you really cool guys draw the line between hip and not so cool to have around.

Hip = art that enhances the environment
Not so cool to have around = people who say "get off my lawn"

Hope that helps.

[rjk]

i'll see your krakhead and raise you:

If that's the most impressive so-called art on the DC my vote is for pristine walls.
That's the problem with most graffiti artists. They're not nearly as good as they think they are.

[vintagesoul]

That's the problem with most graffiti artists. They're not nearly as good as they think they are.

Interesting viewpoint. Care to elaborate?

[Bearinabox]

Great idea! But may I propose a hypothetical? Just a little "what if" for us to bounce back and forth. Okay, let's say that I like to draw graffiti, and I want to draw my graffiti on the legal walls. Now, my subjects are a little off color. I like to portray naked women being lybched, big titted ones at that. Then, Sometimes I like to spray paint "fuck all kikes", but I lay the words out in the form of a swastika. Sometimes I write "coons go back to africa" or "honky needs his ass kicked", all in the most creative manner imaginable and in a font that is aestethically pleasing. Of course, I'' akways have really cool graphics to go with the lettering, you know to help tell the story. Would that be cool too, or would you think that was not cool at all.

How about if the gangs want to start "tagging" on those walls. Would that be cool, a little MS-13 action up against the LKs or Bloods? Or, would the cool folks, you know, folks like you, would you guys keep all that under control? In other words, would you cool guys censor what got put on the walls? Or would it be open season, and anything goes. Because I want to knowwhere you really cool guys draw the line between hip and not so cool to have around.

Hopefully, there would be enough activity on the wall that anything drawn, good or bad, would last a relatively short time. I would think that "good" work would last somewhat longer, because people would be more hesitant to paint over it, and conversely, people would go out of their way to paint over something that is crude or offensive or simply lacking in imagination or effort. I think an aggressively-enforced ban on all painting in the cut is more likely to weed out the more respectable people with real artistic talent who might spend hours on an elaborate piece of art than it is the assholes who just spray a quick slur and run away, if only because the former group are much more likely to be caught in the act.

I guess I just don't think bare concrete is very interesting to look at when you're walking. It would be nice if the cut could remain an attraction in its own right instead of just a way to get from point A to point B.

[Det_ard]

Rode through today. Where's all the good art? 90% pure junk, 10% minor league "art".