Black Churches Hurt Detroit

[Zacha341]

Answer: Time spent together in worship and scriptural study, etc. is one of the core activities / actions expressed as a communal activity, is prescribed in the Christian Bible [[Protestant or Catholic). Additionally, faith of course has a solo and private component and expression. Yet believers are to "not forsake the assembly with other believers"... [[one example in the Bible that talks about gathering together of believers).

So why then do they bother joining a church? A person doesn't have to go to a "church" to have faith.

[Detroitej72]

Why is it then that some atheists feel compelled to denigrate those who have differing beliefs? Is it because they are bigoted?

I think its because they [[falsely) believe they are more enlightened that folks of a religious nature.

[terryh]

I was just reading about countries like Sweden and Denmark who have great economies and very little crime. They also do not practice religion or go to church a whole lot. They say they practice humanity instead of religion. It is strange how many churches are in Detroit. I've seen corner party stores turned into churches. I've seen "Pastors" dressed like pimps, driving there Cadillacs living large while the commuinty suffers. Makes you think.

Ive noticed the same thing about churches in Detroti...read the same about the European countries with high levels of organic atheism....

[terryh]

[quote=Retroit;110733]So, I suppose if you worked in a scientific laboratory with a bunch of believers, you would conclude that all believers are self-motivated geniuses who invent or discover things?[/quote I dont know about lab assistants but I think scientists tend to be agnostic-atheist...I believe that is a generalization that can be made...

[terryh]

Mikeg the religious can believe whatever they choose as long as they dont demand special rights and privelages; break the law and discriminate; respect the seperation of church and state etc....

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: ".Let go and let God= dont take responisbility for youre own actions. Dont think for youreself."

What a steaming crock of it. I've skimmed over your posts, you are so off base, I don't even know where to begin. Other than to say, you're wrong.

[Sstashmoo]

Show me where it says "Get in your station wagon, and go to a building built with tax deferred donations from a group, or groups of people" "Try to outdress everyone there" "By simply attending you'll be better and closer to God somehow than people that do not attend this building" etc.

The Bible speaks in terms of spirit often, that many misconceive as physical presence and actions. Multi Million dollar churches with little outreach or even benefit aren't mentioned. Faith is a personal one on one relationship and many can congregate in that spirit.

Quote: ""Answer: Time spent together in worship and scriptural study, etc. is one of the core activities / actions expressed as a communal activity, is prescribed in the Christian Bible [[Protestant or Catholic). Additionally, faith of course has a solo and private component and expression. Yet believers are to "not forsake the assembly with other believers"... [[one example in the Bible that talks about gathering together of believers).""
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sstashmoo
So why then do they bother joining a church? A person doesn't have to go to a "church" to have faith""

[Zacha341]

Yep, we all know about that flashy-materialistic based church that demands fancy clothing and all that "stuff". But that is not a requirement, or the foundational "reason" for why people attend church for which I gave the answer in my original response.

Now the option of what kind of church, the kind building, etc., yes it is an issue. But those who discern properly make their choice for the reason I stated [[see below - "Zacha341 wrote").

Sure, we can all point to the "negative" toxic church set-up, non the less, the foundational reason for believers to gather remains... and everyone does not subscribe to the worst model of church reference.

I prefer the simpler, non-commercial congregation able to effectively apply help spiritually to its members having an impact locally and abroad in other areas of need.

All Christian assemblies are not of "flash" and foolishness. For example in China they have have gatherings in homes for the purpose of "assembly". I doubt there's little affectation going on there.

The "church" experience and infrastructure here in the states varies in response to the our society likewise [[some very commercial and secular, some not).

Sadly some reflect a secular materialism not consistent with Biblical teachings.

But all do not, nor do all congregants desire that.

There are many healthy, well-balanced church assemblies here accomplishing much and for example collecting funds to help Haiti.

Show me where it says "Get in your station wagon, and go to a building built with tax deferred donations from a group, or groups of people" "Try to outdress everyone there" "By simply attending you'll be better and closer to God somehow than people that do not attend this building" etc.

The Bible speaks in terms of spirit often, that many misconceive as physical presence and actions. Multi Million dollar churches with little outreach or even benefit aren't mentioned. Faith is a personal one on one relationship and many can congregate in that spirit.

Zacha341 wrote: "Answer: Time spent together in worship and scriptural study, etc. is one of the core activities / actions expressed as a communal activity, is prescribed in the Christian Bible [[Protestant or Catholic). Additionally, faith of course has a solo and private component and expression. Yet believers are to "not forsake the assembly with other believers"... [[one example in the Bible that talks about gathering together of believers).""

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sstashmoo
So why then do they bother joining a church? A person doesn't have to go to a "church" to have faith""

[Mikeg]

Mikeg the religious can believe whatever they choose as long as they dont demand special rights and privelages; break the law and discriminate; respect the seperation of church and state etc....

The vast majority of religious believers do respect and follow the laws, yet you denigrate them with a very broad and bigoted brush:

Churches are a problem because they teach mind numbing superstitious nonsense and cause divisions among human beings

There are mryiad black denominations and sects. Nation of Islam; Church of the Black Madonna; the black Israelites are particularly creepy and spacy;Baptists-born agains; Catholics; Jehova Witness etc....the literalists in every religion scare me...

[mam2009]

…My personal belief was, is and has always been that the volume of black churches in Detroit hurt the city. Their ideology and careless spiritual axioms create an environment of self loathing and irresponsibility. I'm curious what the forumers think? -- southsider


Churches are a problem because they teach mind numbing superstitious nonsense and cause divisions among human beings.Let go and let God= dont take responisbility for youre own actions. Dont think for youreself. -- terryh

Wow! I didn’t know that teaching that adherents should follow the example of Jesus Christ [[since we are talking about an 80% AA city & most AA’s who have a religious preference are Christian) in helping the poor, loving one another and feeling empowered and confident because you KNOW that yours is a righteous cause made one a self-loathing, irresponsible zombie -- because you “don’t think for youreself� [[sic). Most of the human catalysts for social justice and human and civil rights throughout world history did so in order to HONOR their deity whomever that was for them.

“Let go and let God� refers to allowing God to work THROUGH you and your actions to accomplish His/Her purpose for your life and His/Her kingdom without letting fear, doubt, shame, pride, sloth or whatever getting in your/God’s way. The notion that it has anything to do with not being responsible for your actions is absurd. The Bible, the Torah, the Koran and most deity-based religions have anecdotes/stories that emphasize the choices of humans and the consequences [[or responsibilities) of their choices.

I’m not trying to get into a theological debate here. Your religious leanings are your business. You wanted to know what “forumers� thought. Well, here’s my two pennies…your entire premise is flawed. In general, church property tends to be clean and maintained [[grass cut, no stray trash, etc), active members visit the sick, feed and provide shelter for the hungry, run sports, mentorship, scholarship and tutoring programs, host health fairs, some pastors sit on panels that seek cooperation with other cultures, suburbanites, etc. None of that sounds like its promoting self-loathing and irresponsibility. By contrast, those are activities of churches seeking to empower its membership & community. Are there church leaders who teach that everything that is wrong in one’s life is because he/she is African-American and “the man� is keeping them down? I’m sure there are. But does this constitute a popular “ideology� promoted by Detroit churches? I don’t think so.

[lilpup]

Only thing I never undesrtood is how the "leaders" of these super churches can drive around in Cadillacs and Bentleys and live in grand homes and have grand lifestyles.

Not all black churches are mega-churches and not all mega-churches are black churches. Not all black preachers are prosperity preachers and not all prosperity preachers are black preachers. You need to be specific when you level such accusations. Elmer Gantrys do exist, just as there are bad apples in every walk of life, but they are not the majority.

[Zacha341]

Well stated... Thanks. What you have often instead of a healthy debate is the standard "straw man" argument, in which a certain kind of church is referenced again and again in order to "knock down" [[critique) the whole concept of Christian assembly and the motives and reasoning for those who participate.

Not all black churches are mega-churches and not all mega-churches are black churches. Not all black preachers are prosperity preachers and not all prosperity preachers are black preachers. You need to be specific when you level such accusations. Elmer Gantrys do exist, just as there are bad apples in every walk of life, but they are not the majority.

[Zacha341]

You bring up several compelling points that at minimal express a broader perspective of church life in general and in Detroit specifically. Sure, many of us can reference a toxic church experience we heard about or may have even experienced.

Yet that is not the whole fabric of the church and too often the extreme is portrayed as the norm for ALL churches. Hah, don't get me starting on the ironic places that "self-loathing" holds up... like in "some" areas of academia and in the arts.

But that's another subject.

…My personal belief was, is and has always been that the volume of black churches in Detroit hurt the city. Their ideology and careless spiritual axioms create an environment of self loathing and irresponsibility. I'm curious what the forumers think? -- southsider


Churches are a problem because they teach mind numbing superstitious nonsense and cause divisions among human beings.Let go and let God= dont take responisbility for youre own actions. Dont think for youreself. -- terryh

Wow! I didn’t know that teaching that adherents should follow the example of Jesus Christ [[since we are talking about an 80% AA city & most AA’s who have a religious preference are Christian) in helping the poor, loving one another and feeling empowered and confident because you KNOW that yours is a righteous cause made one a self-loathing, irresponsible zombie -- because you “don’t think for youreself” [[sic). Most of the human catalysts for social justice and human and civil rights throughout world history did so in order to HONOR their deity whomever that was for them.

“Let go and let God” refers to allowing God to work THROUGH you and your actions to accomplish His/Her purpose for your life and His/Her kingdom without letting fear, doubt, shame, pride, sloth or whatever getting in your/God’s way. The notion that it has anything to do with not being responsible for your actions is absurd. The Bible, the Torah, the Koran and most deity-based religions have anecdotes/stories that emphasize the choices of humans and the consequences [[or responsibilities) of their choices.

I’m not trying to get into a theological debate here. Your religious leanings are your business. You wanted to know what “forumers” thought. Well, here’s my two pennies…your entire premise is flawed. In general, church property tends to be clean and maintained [[grass cut, no stray trash, etc), active members visit the sick, feed and provide shelter for the hungry, run sports, mentorship, scholarship and tutoring programs, host health fairs, some pastors sit on panels that seek cooperation with other cultures, suburbanites, etc. None of that sounds like its promoting self-loathing and irresponsibility. By contrast, those are activities of churches seeking to empower its membership & community. Are there church leaders who teach that everything that is wrong in one’s life is because he/she is African-American and “the man” is keeping them down? I’m sure there are. But does this constitute a popular “ideology” promoted by Detroit churches? I don’t think so.

[maxx]

Which came first?

probably socialist xtianity

How prevalent is the idea of not cooperating with the police and what are local ministers saying about it?

[southsider]

Quote: "Again, I anticipated much more harsh responses to the post that would essentially translate into humor."

Translated: Hello everyone, I'm a troll. Dude were trolled out.

What makes me a troll or a dude? You know neither.

[ejames01]

Dude, You posted nonsense to get a rise out of people. What else are we to think?

What makes me a troll or a dude? You know neither.

[firstandten]

In reading some of the posts, I think people dismiss the black church a little too quickly as being irrevalent to the needs of blacks in general and blacks in Detroit in particular. Many blacks churches preach a form of black liberation theology which directly addresses the earthly needs of blacks. Because of that, I don't think one should make statements like "self loathing and irresponsibility" in describing the effects of the black church on black people. To say something like that is flat out wrong. Blacks perceptions of church and state in general is rather than being separate is more inclusive. Thats why many of the political leaders in the black community are also religious leaders as well. Thats why in order to be a successful politican in the black community you must have the blessing of the black church.

Now granted you also have your prosperity theologist like TD Jakes and Creflo Dollar. They serve an uplifting purpose to the black community as well. Now even though you have your preacher-pimps and your jack-leg storefront preachers in the black community as well, they are the exception and not the rule.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_liberation_theology

[terryh]

Given a choice I would rather attend a rockin-bluesy black church than an uptight stuffy white church.Its fun to watch congregants 'catch the ghost' and run up and down the isles...other than that I think religion divides.us.....a subject for a new thread? perhaps........
Years ago[[many years Im a little more responsible now lol) I was on Gratiot and in a predicament in which the gas tank was low and I was broke after a night of partying, I stopped at a black church on Gratiot and explained my situation to the black pastor who took care of my need for gas money which I later repayed by donating the money to the church as the pastor refused to accept the money as payback for a good deed.Now the question is was the pastor being a good christian or a good human being? I would possibly, depending on how I read the situation put gas in someones car because I would want someone to do the same for me or a friend or family member. There have been numerous other situations in biking excursions and photo trips in Detroit in which I stopped by a church in Detroit to use the restroom or take pics and was met with seething hostility and contempt, as though I was somehow obligated tostay and listen to a sermon and come out of my pocket with funds to support a 'ministry'......

[terryh]

You bring up several compelling points that at minimal express a broader perspective of church life in general and in Detroit specifically. Sure, many of us can reference a toxic church experience we heard about or may have even experienced.

Yet that is not the whole fabric of the church and too often the extreme is portrayed as the norm for ALL churches. Hah, don't get me starting on the ironic places that "self-loathing" holds up... like in "some" areas of academia and in the arts.

But that's another subject.

Fairenough Zacha but I think the religious are being good human beings..one doesn't need to believe in an intervening deity to strive for a better society and uplift the needy. We need charity and government assistance as a matter of public safety..highly religious societies tend to have more crushing poverty and violence-disease etc....in highly secular and atheist countries health care is made available and little or no cost; life expectancies are higher; they have lower crime rates etc...atheist -agostic-non practicing medical scientists create medicines that cure and keep in remission myriad diseases etc so on and so forth..

The 'prophet' Mohammed lived in a cave and heard voices and Jesus who claimed to be the son of God, if they really existed at all were probably charasmatic figures who in this day and age would be diaganosed as schizophrenic and manic depressive...

[Zacha341]

Do people become Christian singularly just to be a "good human" being? I think it is bit more complex than that... though that is an out-working.

I'm not going to get into a lengthy theological, epistemological or existential discussion on rather or not Jesus is who he said his is etc. or why some "choose" to believe or the veracity of the writings about him or the validity of Mohammed's inspirationals et al.

But I will say that it need NOT be an "either" / "or" issue with regards to people who do good or their inspiration be it so called "religious" or not.

And of course there are many Christians engaged in the sciences and other intellectual endeavors. And there are many secular people are generous as well as those who claim the cause of Christ or another faith.

Yet, others have found the Christian faith and teachings to be crucial in guiding and sustaining them to be happier, better people, beyond what they wanted, or could do on their own.

The non-believe may call this brainwashing, or influence. I will simply say that from my world view [[as a believer) it is trans-formative inspiration [[as corny as that may seem!). Yet the testimony stands of those who have had their lives changed.

To go back to my original thesis [[comment), I simply stated that I've found self-loathing not to be exclusive to Christians. And yes, additionally as you state there are charitable people who are not so religiously inspired.

Fairenough Zacha but I think the religious are being good human beings..one doesn't need to believe in an intervening deity to strive for a better society and uplift the needy. We need charity and government assistance as a matter of public safety..highly religious societies tend to have more crushing poverty and violence-disease etc....in highly secular and atheist countries health care is made available and little or no cost; life expectancies are higher; they have lower crime rates etc...atheist -agostic-non practicing medical scientists create medicines that cure and keep in remission myriad diseases etc so on and so forth..

The 'prophet' Mohammed lived in a cave and heard voices and Jesus who claimed to be the son of God, if they really existed at all were probably charasmatic figures who in this day and age would be diaganosed as schizophrenic and manic depressive...

[Retroit]

There is nothing in our human nature that has any desire to be a good person. It is only when we become aware of our higher spiritual nature that we seek to do good.

As far as the superiority of atheistic countries over believing countries, I would suggest that those countries that you label as atheist were probably not always so and their current superior [[by your reasoning) culture and beliefs are based more on their religious past than they are on their atheistic present.

[Bearinabox]

There is nothing in our human nature that has any desire to be a good person. It is only when we become aware of our higher spiritual nature that we seek to do good.

Have you ever tried being an asshole all the time? It's hard work, and it's no damn fun. Everyone hates you, you don't get that rewarding feeling of making other people happy, you shy away from mirrors and have trouble sleeping...it's just a bad scene. I think people, regardless of spiritual or religious convictions, generally strive to do what they consider to be good, and rationalize their actions in terms of their personal moral codes. I don't think the end result is all that different whether those codes are structured by God and Satan and heaven and hell or just by constantly asking oneself "am I being an asshole right now?"

You're describing sociopaths, not atheists.

[gibran]

man chooses his paths based on the basic premises of doing good or using evil as an excuse to do bad...or the struggle with both at times...

spirituality comes in many expressions..some do it with a purely humanistic approach [[which by the way mirrors Judea-Christian/ religious dogma) or they pledge support to a specific religion or at least had a background in it's structure. An atheist or a agnostic can be some of the most liberating and kind people out there..just as some religious folk hide behind Bibles, Torahs or Korans to support great wrongs...

.it still is an individual choice and made with much deliberation for some...and a struggle for others.

The bottom line is whatever your beliefs ...doing good resembles a strong passage in the Christian bible of "doing unto others as you would do unto you...or whatever you do to the least of my brothers you do unto me"...either way you cut it secular or spiritual or a combination of both...that helps edge your chances of a good life.

Or as I like to view it...until someone can statically prove at .005 or less that God doesn't exist [[and that there is something that even our greatest scientists can 't prove)...I'm betting on a higher power...and I am a scientist.

[gibran]

Faith and Hope are very powerful psychological tools and should never be belittled because they do not appear scientifically sound...as an example; try explaining nuclear physicals to a caveman or even and iron age person..their primitive cognition hadn't had the experiences to draw a deeper understanding in their generations- as our with some of the greatest mysteries are yet to be explained in ours.

[Danny]

Black Churches hurt Detroit, THAT'S A LIE!!! Black churches either it's a storfront or a megachurch is doing great. It lures the lost from their ghettoes to Jesus Christ so they can be SAVED through grace and salvation.