Black Churches Hurt Detroit

southsider · January-13-10, 06:54 PM

Over the few years that I lived in Detroit I couldn't help, but notice how many churches are present in the city. Its such a dichotomy to see the frequency of crime and corruption juxtaposed against so many churches. My personal belief was, is and has always been that the volume of black churches in Detroit hurt the city. Their ideology and careless spiritual axioms create an environment of self loathing and irresponsibility. I'm curious what the forumers think?

http://www.cus.wayne.edu/content/pub...ckChurches.pdf

**Detroit Stylin** · January-13-10, 07:06 PM

Ok......and the correlation between Black Churches and the City's ills are......

smudge pot · January-13-10, 07:29 PM

Ban-bait. Flypaper.

DC48080 · January-13-10, 07:10 PM

Oh boy Southsider, I hope you're prepared for a typical DetroitYes nasty backlash. Many of the folks on here are going to be beside themselves because your mention in your headline of anything black hurting Detroit will offend their liberal sensibilities.

By the time it is over you will be accused of being racist and just about the most vile human being ever to walk this earth. Just don't let the self-righteous attack dogs on here get to you. They will attempt to villify anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Retroit · January-13-10, 07:52 PM

I don't think the number of churches is the problem, nor the number of attendees to those churches. I also don't think that churches themselves are the source of Detroit's problems. If anything, they are probably a positive force. However, the disempowering philosophy is very prevalent throughout Detroit, so I wouldn't expect Detroit's churches to be immune.

**terryh** · January-14-10, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Retroit

I don't think the number of churches is the problem, nor the number of attendees to those churches. I also don't think that churches themselves are the source of Detroit's problems. If anything, they are probably a positive force. However, the disempowering philosophy is very prevalent throughout Detroit, so I wouldn't expect Detroit's churches to be immune.

Churches are a problem because they teach mind numbing superstitious nonsense and cause divisions among human beings.Let go and let God= dont take responisbility for youre own actions. Dont think for youreself.

**Pam** · January-13-10, 07:27 PM

Their ideology and careless spiritual axioms create an environment of self loathing and irresponsibility

Examples? That's a pretty wild statement to throw out with no elaboration.

**Zacha341** · January-14-10, 06:08 AM

What always amazes me about blanket negative comments re. church [[black or white) is that often the persons posing the accusation has not been inside a church or attended a service. Specific to claims of what goes on within all churches as claimed.

One can always present the straw-man argument, and point to an extreme or characterize [[slick talking preacher as deity, with pinky rings, and caddy etc.) but to do that is somewhat anti-clerical at the onset as that is not whole quotient of church life within the city. There are many healthy churches and ministries providing food and financial relief as well as a spiritual base of hope, providing a world view from which people and families can be empowered.

Originally Posted by Pam

Examples? That's a pretty wild statement to throw out with no elaboration.

**terryh** · January-14-10, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

What always amazes me about blanket negative comments re. church [[black or white) is that often the persons posing the accusation has not been inside a church or attended a service. Specific to claims of what goes on within all churches as claimed.

One can always present the straw-man argument, and point to an extreme or characterize [[slick talking preacher as deity, with pinky rings, and caddy etc.) but to do that is somewhat anti-clerical at the onset as that is not whole quotient of church life within the city. There are many healthy churches and ministries providing food and financial relief as well as a spiritual base of hope, providing a world view from which people and families can be empowered.

They are being good altruistic human beings. Church members do what many atheists like myself do, and that is volunteer to help the less fortunate. In many cases the members are benefitting themselves by assisting the homeless at churches: its a public safety issue. Several of the clients at the shelter office where I volunteered were taken aback and seemed slightly annoyed when I told them I didnt have any religious beliefs. The clients who thought they were there because "God had a plan" tended to be shiftless and lethargic..obviously full churches in Detroit have little impact on the overall state of the place....countries with high percentages of atheism have high standards of living; long life expectancies; universal health care; low crime rates etc.....

**East Detroit** · January-14-10, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by terryh

....countries with high percentages of atheism have high standards of living; long life expectancies; universal health care; low crime rates etc.....

Which came first?

**terryh** · January-14-10, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by East Detroit

Which came first?

What are you asking?

Which came first? Elaborate please...

**maxx** · January-18-10, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by East Detroit

Which came first?

probably socialist xtianity

How prevalent is the idea of not cooperating with the police and what are local ministers saying about it?

Retroit · January-15-10, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by terryh

Several of the clients at the shelter office where I volunteered were taken aback and seemed slightly annoyed when I told them I didnt have any religious beliefs. The clients who thought they were there because "God had a plan" tended to be shiftless and lethargic.

So, I suppose if you worked in a scientific laboratory with a bunch of believers, you would conclude that all believers are self-motivated geniuses who invent or discover things?

**Mikeg** · January-15-10, 08:42 PM

Someone's belief in atheism is just as valid as the beliefs of Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc. Just as religious believers cannot provide definitive proof of the existence of a divine being, neither can the atheist prove the non-existence of a divine being.

Why is it then that some atheists feel compelled to denigrate those who have differing beliefs? Is it because they are bigoted?

**terryh** · January-16-10, 06:47 PM

[quote=Retroit;110733]So, I suppose if you worked in a scientific laboratory with a bunch of believers, you would conclude that all believers are self-motivated geniuses who invent or discover things?[/quote I dont know about lab assistants but I think scientists tend to be agnostic-atheist...I believe that is a generalization that can be made...

**ejames01** · January-13-10, 07:48 PM

Nothing in that paper supports your theory. Do you really believe that most criminals attend church?

Originally Posted by southsider

Over the few years that I lived in Detroit I couldn't help, but notice how many churches are present in the city. Its such a dichotomy to see the frequency of crime and corruption juxtaposed against so many churches. My personal belief was, is and has always been that the volume of black churches in Detroit hurt the city. Their ideology and careless spiritual axioms create an environment of self loathing and irresponsibility. I'm curious what the forumers think?

http://www.cus.wayne.edu/content/pub...ckChurches.pdf

**bragaboutme** · January-13-10, 07:51 PM

What about all the Black Churches in the suburbs?

**softailrider** · January-13-10, 08:30 PM

I have no idea if they're good or bad. There sure seems to be a lot of them in the city though.

**eno** · January-13-10, 08:36 PM

It's an absurd correlation. Are the churchgoers committing crimes?

**gumby** · January-13-10, 09:04 PM

Originally Posted by eno

It's an absurd correlation. Are the churchgoers committing crimes?

Well there are a lot more religious people in prison than not.

The original poster is looking at this all wrong. Black, White, Asian, Middle Eastern, green, orange, or whatever churches in general I think are bad for society. Religion asks that you give in to a higher power that is in charge of our lives. To some deranged people they can take that as I am not culpable for my actions. Hell, Catholicism allows you to atone for your sins by confessing them [[I know that is just a quick once over and not the whole process).

I had a catholic friend of mine explain to me why Harry Potter was considered bad and The Lion the Witch and the wardrobe was good by church people even though I feel the themes are very similar and I think it pertains here. He told me the source of power comes from within the individual in the Harry Potter Books where as in Narnia everything looks toward the Higher Power [[Aslan) to save them. Which is essentially the teachings of Christianity, with God all is possible. Lets face it a lot of impoverished people have a hard time buying into the whole just have faith and things will get better nonsense when they look back at generations of their family being shit on by people in power so they decide to take some of that power by force and so on. Growing up in a religious home they are not taught that we have the power within ourselves to rise above and make a better life.

I know that it isn't a perfect analogy and there are a lot more factors that go into than just religion but you can see how this might play some role.

**Detroitej72** · January-13-10, 09:52 PM

=gumby;110067]Well there are a lot more religious people in prison than not.

Ever hear that the phrase, "there are no atheist's in foxholes'?

=gumby;110067]To some deranged people they can take that as I am not culpable for my actions. Hell, Catholicism allows you to atone for your sins by confessing them [[I know that is just a quick once over and not the whole process).

Yet you still offer it as your opinion.

Gumby, my man, I'm disappointed that you, a poster whom I enjoy reading, offered such a weak analogy.

**gumby** · January-13-10, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitej72

Gumby, my man, I'm disappointed that you, a poster whom I enjoy reading, offered such a weak analogy.

I said it wasn't the best analogy. I realize I didn't describe what I meant the best but it has been a long day and I should go to bed. I appreciate that you enjoy reading my usual comments but we can't hit all homeruns.

That said, as an atheist, I would be one in a foxhole, just as religious people are strong in there beliefs I am as well in mine. I grow tired of my religious friends stating that without the threat of God to punish people they believe that the world would slip into a state of utter chaos and lawlessness. I once had a friend say that he didn't understand how people who are not religious have morals. I am not religious yet I treat others as I wish to be treated, I have never robbed a bank, I have never killed anyone, heck I even have morals.

Like I said it is far from the only reason and in some cases it isn't a reason at all. I wish everything had a black and white answer but they don't. I am just hope we can move past the racial overtones of the original post [[completely uncalled for btw) and have a true conversation.

**Patrick** · January-13-10, 08:45 PM

Only thing I never undesrtood is how the "leaders" of these super churches can drive around in Cadillacs and Bentleys and live in grand homes and have grand lifestyles.

lilpup · January-18-10, 05:26 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick

Only thing I never undesrtood is how the "leaders" of these super churches can drive around in Cadillacs and Bentleys and live in grand homes and have grand lifestyles.

Not all black churches are mega-churches and not all mega-churches are black churches. Not all black preachers are prosperity preachers and not all prosperity preachers are black preachers. You need to be specific when you level such accusations. Elmer Gantrys do exist, just as there are bad apples in every walk of life, but they are not the majority.

**Zacha341** · January-18-10, 07:43 AM

Well stated... Thanks. What you have often instead of a healthy debate is the standard "straw man" argument, in which a certain kind of church is referenced again and again in order to "knock down" [[critique) the whole concept of Christian assembly and the motives and reasoning for those who participate.

Originally Posted by lilpup

Not all black churches are mega-churches and not all mega-churches are black churches. Not all black preachers are prosperity preachers and not all prosperity preachers are black preachers. You need to be specific when you level such accusations. Elmer Gantrys do exist, just as there are bad apples in every walk of life, but they are not the majority.