Detroit plot sells for $1 per sq in

**davewindsor** · January-16-10, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by cub

Davewindsor,
Ok then....no one is cutting a check to a lawyer, no one is signing anything. So where is the fraud. You are being too technical.

Just have a look on e-bay. You can buy various empty parcels of land all across the US in areas in the middle of nowhere that you can pitch a tent on that people are reselling from tax sales. You win the bid on e-bay, you send them the money and the seller files the transfer with the county and sends you a piece of paper saying you own land. You don't sign anything. You don't visit a lawyer's office. All you did was bid and send the funds through paypal from the luxury of your home computer and a week later you get a piece of paper in the mail that says own land. You pick up the phone and call that county and ask if it's registered in your name and they say yes. It's verified. You own land without ever experiencing any of the procedures. Now, if the seller just took the money and never registered the transfer of ownership to your name with the county, what is that? Fraud. Exactly what this guy is doing.

**davewindsor** · January-16-10, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by cub

Davewindsor,
Ok then....no one is cutting a check to a lawyer, no one is signing anything. So where is the fraud. You are being too technical.

Here's a guy who'll sell you a vacant 62'x132' lot in Kalamazoo, MI on e-bay. You never see a lawyer. You sign nothing. Currently, there's only a $1 bid price plus a $399 document fee. Bid, send money through paypal via your home computer and you get a deed in the mail. http://cgi.ebay.com/Residential-Vaca...item2304cdc8e8

**cub** · January-16-10, 06:33 PM

You dont have to see a lawyer with a Quit Claim Deed but the seller has to get the Quit Claim Deed notarized. Then buyer has to register deed with the county.

**davewindsor** · January-16-10, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by cub

You dont have to see a lawyer with a Quit Claim Deed but the seller has to get the Quit Claim Deed notarized. Then buyer has to register deed with the county.

??? Quit claim deed isn't the only way you can transfer property. Explain how makeloveland is a Quit Claim Deed if he's selling it to multiple buyers.. I don't see quit claim deed written in that Kalamazoo e-bay listing either. In that listing, the seller does all the work. I'm not sure why you brought it up.

**cub** · January-16-10, 07:49 PM

I didnt say Loveland was a quit claim deed. I brought it up because that is one of the ways of transfering property where you dont need a lawyer or a signature frow the buyer. I have purchased land in Florida and still had to go to Florida to register the deed.

Retroit · January-16-10, 07:50 PM

It sounds like that e-bay, if done properly, would be a "warranty deed" because the property is actually changing ownership. A "quit claim deed" is when someone relinquishes his share/interest in the property. Neither of these really apply here because Mr. P. is retaining some part of ownership. Legally [[assuming no fraud) the buyers would be "tenants in common" and their names would be listed on the title, which means they all have some right to the property.

**cub** · January-16-10, 07:57 PM

Which means he should add a disclaimer.

Retroit · January-16-10, 08:24 PM

I'm not sure a disclaimer would be enough to protect him from liability. He'll need to clearly state in the main body of the offer that purchasers will be buying absolutely nothing and that they are simply giving their money away without any expectation of ownership in real property.

**MJCMEX** · January-16-10, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by Retroit

I'm not sure a disclaimer would be enough to protect him from liability. He'll need to clearly state in the main body of the offer that purchasers will be buying absolutely nothing and that they are simply giving their money away without any expectation of ownership in real property.

Interesting...

OK Allow me to give an analogy:

You have taken a date to the Detroit Symphony

The orchestra is sitting there. The concert master tunes them and the maestro comes out.

He takes the podium...and for period of 4:33 no sounds are heard other than the confused and offended mutterings of the audience.

The maestro bows deeply, the orchestra stands...and exits.

That is the entire concert. You shelled out $50 a piece for this event.

Would you want your money back?

Now the work in question is the seminal Cage concept piece 4:33 seconds. It really does exist, but usually it is not performed as a surprise. You are told...

HEY, WE ARE DOING CAGE'S 4:33

...just to make sure that there are no cries of fraud.

It seems to me that there needs to be a big warning lable on the "Loveland Project"...

YOU ARE NOT REALLY BUYING ANY ACTUAL PROPERTY

...but of course that would not make for the best marketing in the world would it.

**davewindsor** · January-17-10, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by MJCMEX

...just to make sure that there are no cries of fraud.

It seems to me that there needs to be a big warning lable on the "Loveland Project"...

YOU ARE NOT REALLY BUYING ANY ACTUAL PROPERTY

...but of course that would not make for the best marketing in the world would it.

Oh but come on. He's an artist, as Cub suggests. He doesn't need to use disclaimers or follow the law. Let's just give him some artistic freedom for his Con Artist Project. We love Con Artists here in Detroit. He's gonna help Detroit market the right image of being a leader in crime statistics by conning people out of their money. Can't we all just let Con Artists make their artistic love for profit in this land called Detroit?

**davewindsor** · January-17-10, 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by Retroit

Legally [[assuming no fraud) the buyers would be "tenants in common" and their names would be listed on the title, which means they all have some right to the property.

Just curious, what does it cost to add each person to title as tenants in common on a deed with the registry office? 50 bucks a person?

**RickBeall** · January-17-10, 03:24 AM

Hi MJCMEX,

I agree with you it is just flakey conceptual art. We tend to see a lot of that.

I think the artist who is also practical and realistic would be a bit of a Renaissance Man. With real estate prices so low in Detroit, Detroit is ripe for something ... breathtaking.

**MJCMEX** · January-17-10, 01:32 PM

You know, this reminds me of a guy who was painting political art on public property in Santa Monica CA.

He was a far left guy and one of his paintings was a picture of Ronald Reagan with AIDS.
It was a very mediocre work of art, so he defended it by claiming it was political free speech.

Then the city of Santa Monica [[BTW a very liberal place) said "Sorry. We have political forums wherein you can post your opinion, but you are defacing Santa Monica Property"

So what did the guy do?

He said "But my paintings are works of art".

The city told him to remove his masterpieces anyway.

I am inclined to agree with the folks who say that the Loveland Project is an actual legal fraud, but because each individual is only parting with a dollar I also tend to agree with the officer who claims that the typical police department would do absolutely nothing about the issue.

Rick Beall writes:

"I think the artist who is also practical and realistic would be a bit of a Renaissance Man. With real estate prices so low in Detroit, Detroit is ripe for something ... breathtaking. "

I agree with this. I see one of the possibilites for the future of Detroit as one of an artistic Renaissance. With prices as low as they are even painters, musicians and poets can afford to buy their own homes.

I know that independent film producers are already looking into Detroit for studio property

What seems bleak now could be very exciting in the future.

But...

All artists know that when they submit their work to the public it will be scrutinized on the level of craft, artistic integrity etc...

Mr. Paffendorf should not be excluded from such scrutiny.

**jerrypaffendorf** · January-17-10, 08:24 PM

Hi, it's Jerry again. It's definitely been interesting catching up on this thread. I've never been called a Yuppie Half-Beard before. That was sort of a trip. [[/puts down $8 latte purchased with "massive inch fortunes"[[tm) and checks beard in mirror to make sure it's all still there...

)

Let me step back a sec and say, it's early days and everything's being bootstrapped from $0, but I view LOVELAND as a gateway to many ideas and many creative ventures: a sort of wild 21st century creative studio based in Detroit. Micro payments for micro ownership and the collaborative development of land in the city seems to me a great way to fund and develop this concept while inviting many people with many ideas to take part. To my mind, there's a need for a new system that makes control and participation in the life of a property incredibly simple, cheap, social, highly creative, and incredibly FUN. LOVELAND is playfully but seriously stumbling towards that sort of system. It's not traditional ownership, it's a new layer of access on top of the world.

If you look at the blog there are a bunch of different ideas and activities being worked on that I hope you'll find interesting beyond the fixation on inch sales. If you want to help work on any of them [[or have ideas for others), by all means let me know. I love to collaborate, and I'm particularly interested in meeting software developers in Detroit [[the rarest of creatures), as well as people who make things generally or who would like to collaborate on a LOVELAND project on their land. Some links:

Art stuffs: http://7billionfriends.tumblr.com/po...8/makin-stuffs and http://7billionfriends.tumblr.com/po...-place-to-land

Games: http://7billionfriends.tumblr.com/po...ro-real-estate

Mixed-reality animation: http://www.vimeo.com/7087012 and http://www.vimeo.com/7261689

Stories: http://7billionfriends.tumblr.com/po...is-the-hardest

Solar-powered cameras and Augmented Reality: http://7billionfriends.tumblr.com/po...-lemon-battery

Robots: http://7billionfriends.tumblr.com/po...ect-pico-mover

I come partly from the art world and partly from the technology world, and my life has naturally become dedicated to unique unions of the two [[sometimes as shorthand I say my thinking is part Disney and part Google, or part Dr Seuss and part Ray Kurzweil). It's funny, I have a BFA from Montclair State in New Jersey and an MS in Studies of the Future from the University of Houston-Clear Lake, which is a pretty good insight into my brain.

That doesn't always make for a clear category or genre for the projects I work on, but I've learned to be OK with that, to suffer some of the slings and arrows, and to respect that overlapping area as where a lot of great new things come from, even if they look funny at first.

I'm not sure what else to say here, and want to get back to work otherwise. Come visit my studio at the Russell Industrial Center or let me know if you want to catch up around town if you want to talk more. I'm always down, and it's a much better way to connect than this forum.

PS Fun bonus trivia: where did the name LOVELAND come from? http://7billionfriends.tumblr.com/po...hats-in-a-name

**Jimaz** · January-17-10, 08:52 PM

The only Loveland I know is in Colorado. Folks send valentines there to get remailed with the Loveland postmark.

**gnome** · January-17-10, 09:06 PM

Jiminaz, they do the same in Hell, Michigan.

JP, have you discussed your new layer of property ownership with a real estate attorney? That seems to be an issue.

So in glancing at your links, you have not decided anything, have you? All those ideas just swimming around waiting for one to perc to the top? Is that right? Kind of a free-form electronic erectorset for the conceptualists, right? hmm

Retroit · January-18-10, 10:59 AM

Maybe I could offer my virtual legal services for $1.

Of course, you'd have to wait till I get a $1 virtual law degree and pass the $1 virtual bar exam.

**gencinjay** · January-18-10, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by MJCMEX

But...

All artists know that when they submit their work to the public it will be scrutinized on the level of craft, artistic integrity etc...

Mr. Paffendorf should not be excluded from such scrutiny.

Certainly he should not be excluded, but he should also be afforded the opportunity to actually convey the full context of his work before people start bashing it. What you're doing is akin to people walking out of one of your perfomances after the first two measures and calling it crap.

**davewindsor** · January-18-10, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by gencinjay

What you're doing is akin to people walking out of one of your perfomances after the first two measures and calling it crap.

How could you possibly derive that? What he's doing is akin to you putting $1 in a vending machine for a Mars chocolate bar and out pops just a piece of paper that says virtual Mars chocolate bar on it. You didn't get any actual chocolate that you can taste and say it's crap or not. You've seen expensive commercials for Mars bars, which made you want to buy one of these so called delicious treats. Maybe you've even heard stories at a bar about people deep frying Mars bars and enjoying them. You see there's chocolate in the machine because you can see it through the glass. You paid for it, but all the machine gave you was a lousy piece of paper. WTF?

**gencinjay** · January-20-10, 10:26 AM

Oh I don't know. Maybe it was from statements like this:

"1. As an artist. I am offended by so called concept art based not upon craft, artistic integrity, and profound thought, but upon the trendy, fashionable, facile and cheap."

We don't know what this project is going to turn out to be. Let it evolve and judge it when it's a bit more substantial. I also don't buy the fraud argument. Anybody that can read the information on this and actually believe they are getting permanent title to their inch has larger issues to deal with in their life than the $1 they spent.

**davewindsor** · January-20-10, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by gencinjay

Oh I don't know. Maybe it was from statements like this:

"1. As an artist. I am offended by so called concept art based not upon craft, artistic integrity, and profound thought, but upon the trendy, fashionable, facile and cheap."

We don't know what this project is going to turn out to be. Let it evolve and judge it when it's a bit more substantial. I also don't buy the fraud argument. Anybody that can read the information on this and actually believe they are getting permanent title to their inch has larger issues to deal with in their life than the $1 they spent.

I see. MJC went off on a tangent so you went off on a further tangent. The bottom line is what he's doing is fraud. If someone's selling pictures, sell pictures. Don't call it something it's not. If you want donations because you're down on your luck, ask for donations. You don't need to write up fraudulent deeds. Be honest. You've been conned into thinking it's not fraud, which is the con artist's job so that can make money. And, apparently he's doing a very good job at it. I guess that's why they refer to people performing the art of conning people, the con artist.

**Detroit500** · January-20-10, 12:17 PM

Jerry, I mean no disrespect, but the various forum members have asked various and sundry questions about this project that you have failed to answer in your replies to us. As someone who lives in New Jersey, I am quite familiar with this tactic of replying to a message without answering anyone's questions -- it's very popular there, but something which is working against you here.

I would love to see you reply to the previous questions forum members have asked about the legality, what exactly literally happens with this land, and also why starting a non-profit organization [[or ceding the land to some kind of non-profit entity) would not be the more appropriate way to create/envision this project.

**Goose** · January-20-10, 02:02 PM

amazing with the complex problems the City of Detroit faces, this "novelty" causes enough stir to rile up the masses.... no wonder nothing gets accomplished......

**jerrypaffendorf** · January-22-10, 02:16 PM

detroit5000,

Sorry if I haven't been answering every single question specifically here. In my experience with anonymous message boards, sometimes people get a little heated and it's better to let the steam burn off before getting too engaged, and I was definitely getting some of the hater vibe in places here [[video made back in November): http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...somebody-hates .

It also seems like some of the questions can't be answered in words right now, they have to be answered in actions as we go along. But here's a crack at the ones you asked again:

On the legality, I'm the land owner in the eyes of the city. I purchased the land, I'm in their database, and I pay the taxes. As land owner, I've chosen to offer people the opportunity to move into it in a small, fun, creative way. If you've given LOVELAND a dollar/s, you quite literally have an inch or inches of space. That's not filed away with the city, that's filed away with me. In many ways I'm a BS buffer. I handle the ugly stuff, and you get a clean-burning land experience. I'm very comfortable that all the promises of the project will be fulfilled for inchvestors. In the future event that anything closes or moves or is taken through eminent domain or whatever, whether in 2011 or 2045, we could still move the inches somewhere else in the city. It's all good.

On what's going to happen with the land, I'm planning to install a 9 x 9 foot clearly delineated grid of 10,000 on the property in the spring. You can see a rough model of the size and shape here: http://7billionfriends.tumblr.com/po...8/makin-stuffs . There will be a one foot wide pathway leading into an open area in the middle so that people can walk into it and reach any part without stepping on anyone's inches. In addition we're working on an updated version of the online map you can see here: http://makeloveland.com/inchvestors and a web streaming camera that can broadcast the land and visitors live online: http://7billionfriends.tumblr.com/po...-lemon-battery .

On non-profit versus for-profit, I've worked with both before, and I'm still learning. Based on my experience and my working style, I'd prefer to run a for-profit that acts cool and fun and responsible and probably from some perspectives like a non-profit. Maybe in the future part of this spins off to become a non-profit, but I'm not sure. Really I'm one person working with friends and trying to figure out how to do this in the best way possible.

On what I'm planning next, I'm preparing material for when the "Plymouth" property hits 10,000 inches [[there's about 1,000 more to go). At that point I'm going to post a new video on the site with a recap and a story, sort of like a trailer for what is and what might be coming next. The project will go into public hibernation for a few weeks and will reopen with a new site, design, and surprises. It's gonna be fun, sort of like the end of season 1 and the start of season 2 of LOVELAND.

That's the way I've been viewing this whole project: as an adventure with a series of goals and levels that evolves in response to ideas and things that happen along the way, with change and cool surprises and realtime additions to the story line as part of its DNA. Like, for example, I just saw today that Matty Moroun outbid me on the first property I wanted to get for the project, and that I wrote into the story with a creature from Zug Island: http://7billionfriends.tumblr.com/po...n-who-snatched . That's hilarious and awesome to me, and I like to be able to put these things in, which means there's a necessary ongoing level of abstraction and openness to new things that precludes me from saying clearly: "This is exactly what this thing is and that's all that it will ever be." Does that make sense?

PS What part of New Jersey are you in? I grew up in a foresty farmy town called Blairstown up in the north west [[Warren County) bordering Pennsylvania and the Delaware Water Gap. I went to art school at Montclair State in Montclair township, and I was in Hackensack and Newark for just a little while. Go dirty jerz, the most derided state in the union.

Retroit · January-22-10, 04:37 PM

Do you think that legally there is any difference between selling land by the square inch or selling land by the square foot?

If you are promising your customers that they will receive a piece of property of any size and you are not giving it to them, you are committing fraud. [[reference: http://www.legislature.mi.gov/[[S[[lrr...me=mcl-750-279)

You do realize this, don't you?