Capping downtown highways

[Hermod]

None of Detroit's freeways made this listing:

http://www.cnu.org/highways/freewayswithoutfutures

[ghettopalmetto]

From Michigan Report Card "38% of roads are in poor condition, 28% of the bridges are structurally deficient or functionally obsolete, and U.S. truckers rate Michigan roads as 3rd worst in the country."

There would be much better ways to spend the $1b before freeway caps would be considered a wise use of funds. Get our good roads and bridges in the 80-85% range, and the state roads in the middle of the pack and then we can talk about capping freeways.

Governor Granholm tried that with the Fix It First program, and everyone in the state threw a shit fit.

[Bearinabox]

Unless citizens are willing to pay more taxes [[yeah, right)...

We have to change this. It's getting critical. The whole damn country is falling down around us, and nobody cares as long as they have a few extra bucks in their wallet. It's ridiculous.

[ghettopalmetto]

We have to change this. It's getting critical. The whole damn country is falling down around us, and nobody cares as long as they have a few extra bucks in their wallet. It's ridiculous.

Bearinabox, you should read Paul Krugman's piece in yesterday's New York Times.

[sirrealone]

Governor Granholm tried that with the Fix It First program, and everyone in the state threw a shit fit.

I actually agreed with the idea to a point. I think there was a middle ground that should have probably been kept [[but when do we ever do anything in the middle? *lol*). I think it was a good idea in principle, but where it went too far was when it cancelled projects that were in the pipeline or were a later phase of existing projects.

[Bearinabox]

Bearinabox, you should read Paul Krugman's piece in yesterday's New York Times.

Thanks for the tip! I searched the site and got this, which I assume is what you're referring to. I can't help but be reminded of all the tooth-gnashing that went on when we started requiring passports to go to Canada. Maybe if more people had passports and actually went and saw other places, they wouldn't buy this "greatest country on earth" stuff as readily.

In a discussion about capping expressways, it's probably relevant to note that large European cities very commonly tunnel through traffic under surface roads near the city center, and very rarely have expressways that penetrate very far into the core. And people pay huge premiums to live in those cities, because they're nice. "Nice" is a concept we Americans have yet to get a handle on, I think. All we know how to do is "profitable."

[sirrealone]

We have to change this. It's getting critical. The whole damn country is falling down around us, and nobody cares as long as they have a few extra bucks in their wallet. It's ridiculous.

Bear, it's my belief that people would raise less cries about new taxes if they felt that their current tax dollars were being spent wisely. As it is, do any of us really feel that the money we're handing over is being spent to the best interests of our citizens, and in an efficient and economical fashion? I hardly think so. Until the government stops wasting hundreds of billions of dollars kowtowing to lobby groups and special interest groups that do little or nothing to benefit the public good, then we as citizens are completely in our right to protest any new taxes.

[ghettopalmetto]

Bear, it's my belief that people would raise less cries about new taxes if they felt that their current tax dollars were being spent wisely. As it is, do any of us really feel that the money we're handing over is being spent to the best interests of our citizens, and in an efficient and economical fashion? I hardly think so. Until the government stops wasting hundreds of billions of dollars kowtowing to lobby groups and special interest groups that do little or nothing to benefit the public good, then we as citizens are completely in our right to protest any new taxes.

Many of us pro-preservation and pro-urbanism folks on these threads hold these beliefs, in part, because we also feel that much money is wasted by the government--money wasted on new freeways, demolition of buildings, construction of new schools in cornfields while existing school buildings in the urban core are forced to close, billions thrown at airports when much of their traffic could more cost-effectively be served by a decent intercity rail system, under-utilization of land, money for public works projects demanded by the new Walmart.

Our nation was far poorer 100 years ago, but was in far better condition and had a lot more respect for itself.

[sirrealone]

Many of us pro-preservation and pro-urbanism folks on these threads hold these beliefs, in part, because we also feel that much money is wasted by the government--money wasted on new freeways, demolition of buildings, construction of new schools in cornfields while existing school buildings in the urban core are forced to close, billions thrown at airports when much of their traffic could more cost-effectively be served by a decent intercity rail system, under-utilization of land, money for public works projects demanded by the new Walmart.

Our nation was far poorer 100 years ago, but was in far better condition and had a lot more respect for itself.

I'm of the hope that one day we can successfully maintain what we have and build new, without one having to be sacrificed for the sake of the other. We have done a poor job of this, and whether this can in fact happen and whether we can ever get there remains to be seen. If we can figure that out, I believe that we can reclaim the spirit that once made our country great.

I wanted to comment that your post was excellent, by the way. Very well stated.

[Meddle]

100 years ago? Even 50 years ago. Late 50's, early 60's was quite prosperous for the most part and the road and infrastructure building boom was in full swing.

------

Somebody mentioned 275 to 696 as a through/bypass route. With the advent of I-69 from Texas to Canada, the better north/south route would be 69 to US23 to Toledo bypassing the congestion completely.

[Bearinabox]

Bear, it's my belief that people would raise less cries about new taxes if they felt that their current tax dollars were being spent wisely. As it is, do any of us really feel that the money we're handing over is being spent to the best interests of our citizens, and in an efficient and economical fashion? I hardly think so. Until the government stops wasting hundreds of billions of dollars kowtowing to lobby groups and special interest groups that do little or nothing to benefit the public good, then we as citizens are completely in our right to protest any new taxes.

I'd like to believe you, but I think it runs deeper than that. From where I sit, many people in this country are opposed to the very concept of paying taxes, and oppose any and all tax increases regardless of the specificity of their application or the resulting benefit to the public. Raising taxes on anyone but cigarette smokers, even in a "blue state," is considered such political suicide that term-limited politicians would rather shut down the fucking government two years in a row than propose anything resembling a long-term fix for the budget. We are deeply afraid of tax increases in this country, and you can't completely explain that away with logic. I guess it's to be expected in a country that was founded because people didn't feel like paying their government for the services it had provided them, but I think we'd better get over it and fast before we turn into a third-world shithole.

[Detroitnerd]

... the better north/south route would be 69 to US23 to Toledo bypassing the congestion completely.

Except on U-M game days ...

[Hermod]

The problem is that we don't have compartmented budgets. The tax money is fungible once the government gets it. If the federal gas tax money and the state gas tax money went into a specific pot that could only be used for road maintenance and new construction without regard as to whether or not the other parts of the budget are in deficit, we could readily repair or replace the infrastructure. If the money wasn't sufficient, people wouldn't object to an additional one or two cents on the gas tax. If people want urban and interurban mass transit, intercity passenger rail, or rail connecting airports, they should create a balkanized budget for that and a purposed tax to support that. Michigan should say, the income tax supports these things, the sales tax supports these things, the gas tax supports these things, etc. That way we don't get gaseous utterings like military spending steals from education.

[DetroitPlanner]

The problem is that we don't have compartmented budgets. The tax money is fungible once the government gets it. If the federal gas tax money and the state gas tax money went into a specific pot that could only be used for road maintenance and new construction without regard as to whether or not the other parts of the budget are in deficit, we could readily repair or replace the infrastructure. If the money wasn't sufficient, people wouldn't object to an additional one or two cents on the gas tax. If people want urban and interurban mass transit, intercity passenger rail, or rail connecting airports, they should create a balkanized budget for that and a purposed tax to support that. Michigan should say, the income tax supports these things, the sales tax supports these things, the gas tax supports these things, etc. That way we don't get gaseous utterings like military spending steals from education.

Huh? The only thing that gets pulled from the federal or gas taxes are funds for transportation, be that road reconstruction, transit improvements or non-motorized improvements. The federal and state highway trust funds are not part of a general fund. In the last several years while facing reduced income from people driving less and more pressure to fund public transportation [[both related to the increase in the cost of fuel) the trust funds have been operating in deficets because politicos are afraid that if they suggest an increase in fuel taxes that they would be lynched.

Note to those that want to get rid of freeways. Detroit is a manufacturing center, we need a way to get our products to market. A good highway system is one piece of the transportation puzzle which also includes airports, cargo ships, and rail. The best thing we can do redevelop this city is to not forget this because we would be at an even bigger competitive disadvantage in the future. Hopefully Detroit will diversify, but we will continue to be the center of manufacturing for North America.

[Hermod]

Huh? The only thing that gets pulled from the federal or gas taxes are funds for transportation, be that road reconstruction, transit improvements or non-motorized improvements. The federal and state highway trust funds are not part of a general fund. In the last several years while facing reduced income from people driving less and more pressure to fund public transportation [[both related to the increase in the cost of fuel) the trust funds have been operating in deficets because politicos are afraid that if they suggest an increase in fuel taxes that they would be lynched.

No, but the federal government "sequesters" the highway funds and doesn't spend everything that comes in so that the federal deficit looks smaller. The "highway trust fund" still shows the money exists, but it isn't being spent on highways. Not sure if the state doesn't play the same smoke and mirrors game with its gas tax money. That is why I am all for balkanization of the budget to ID the areas that really cayse the deficit.

[ghettopalmetto]

Let's not forget that Michigan's constitution requires that at least 90% of all transportation dollars be spent on roads. If that's not "compartmentalized", I don't know what is.

[Novine]

"If the federal gas tax money and the state gas tax money went into a specific pot that could only be used for road maintenance and new construction without regard as to whether or not the other parts of the budget are in deficit, we could readily repair or replace the infrastructure."

No we can't. The money from the current gas tax, etc. doesn't cover the cost to maintain and upgrade the existing roads.

[Bearinabox]

Note to those that want to get rid of freeways. Detroit is a manufacturing center, we need a way to get our products to market. A good highway system is one piece of the transportation puzzle which also includes airports, cargo ships, and rail. The best thing we can do redevelop this city is to not forget this because we would be at an even bigger competitive disadvantage in the future. Hopefully Detroit will diversify, but we will continue to be the center of manufacturing for North America.

I don't think we should get rid of the freeways altogether, but there is also no reason why through traffic from Ann Arbor and Toledo to Flint and Port Huron needs to be routed right through the middle of the city. The damage is basically done at this point, but it would have been interesting to see the difference if, back in the day, the freeways had been made to dump into some kind of circulator belt with underpasses at major intersections [[Livernois-->Davison-->Mound-->Mt. Elliott, maybe) and left the downtown area more or less intact.

[Hermod]

I don't think we should get rid of the freeways altogether, but there is also no reason why through traffic from Ann Arbor and Toledo to Flint and Port Huron needs to be routed right through the middle of the city. The damage is basically done at this point, but it would have been interesting to see the difference if, back in the day, the freeways had been made to dump into some kind of circulator belt with underpasses at major intersections [[Livernois-->Davison-->Mound-->Mt. Elliott, maybe) and left the downtown area more or less intact.

The way traffic planning worked "in the day" was that you took your areas of greatest congention and built a freeway or a toll road to remove that traffic from the congested road. The first example of this was Davidson. The Lodge and the Ford were planned long before Eisenhower became president. These freeways were then integrated into the interstate system. The original part of the Ford was built to move the industrial workers from Detroit to the war-built defense plants near Willow Run.

Essentially, you used to ID an expressway required. You then routed it the cheapest way possible with ramps at convenient locations and crossing bridges every so often between ramps.


Editted to add:

If your expressway was a part of the Interstate System, Uncle Sugar ponied up 90% of the cost of construction while the state ponied up 7.5%. The locality only had to pay 2.5%. They were playing with "house money".

[bartock]

Attachment 4785

This is a rendering of all the projects that have been planned for Detroit and never done. It ran in the Free Press version of Parade magazine back in the early 1990's.

If you can piece it together, I75 is buried all along the stadia and foxtown stretch. You should know that the stadia are not there as they had not been dreamed of yet.

Is there a link to a larger photo and/or explanations of the planned projects? Sorry if it was on an old thread.

[bartock]

Is there a link to a larger photo and/or explanations of the planned projects? Sorry if it was on an old thread.

Nevermind. Searched the .jpg and found it.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3674043/Un...ctober-27-1991

[Gsgeorge]

Nevermind. Searched the .jpg and found it.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3674043/Un...ctober-27-1991

Great find, I've never seen the whole article.

[casscorridor]

I like the idea of Freeway mitigation.

No one method is the best. It depends on the situation.

• Adding more pedestrian bridges, more full bridges supportive of autos. This will support connectivity of neighborhoods without removing or capping freeway. Example would be the lodge freeway. Many more bridges could be added.
• Capping freeways in select areas. I think the I-75/Vernor Hwy segment through Downtown is an important one. But I suppose not as important as a light rail station at Temple. And a bridge at Park Ave would help tremedeously at much less cost.
• Full removal of freeway. The most important example is I-375/Hastings Street. Replacing the freeway with a pedestrian friendly aveneue would dramaticaly transform the area that is currently a stark boundery between Downtown and Lafayette Park. Other canidates for removal but much less likely are the Lodge Freeway begining somehwere around West Grand Blvd

[Bearinabox]

• Full removal of freeway. The most important example is I-375/Hastings Street. Replacing the freeway with a pedestrian friendly aveneue would dramaticaly transform the area that is currently a stark boundery between Downtown and Lafayette Park.

I doubt this would actually have much effect. Lafayette Park itself is a stark boundary, and it's developed about as densely as it can be without completely redesigning the whole area. Removing or capping the Fisher and the Lodge along the edges of downtown would help connect the CBD to the Cass Corridor and Corktown respectively, and there is plenty of empty land in both those areas that could be developed if the neighborhoods started to grow together more. If you ripped out 375 and made it back into a surface street, it would probably just be a dead zone unless there was some specific attraction planned for it. It would be nice to get rid of that ridiculously wide, uncrossable part of Jefferson east of Beaubien, though.

[DetroitPlanner]

No, but the federal government "sequesters" the highway funds and doesn't spend everything that comes in so that the federal deficit looks smaller. The "highway trust fund" still shows the money exists, but it isn't being spent on highways. Not sure if the state doesn't play the same smoke and mirrors game with its gas tax money. That is why I am all for balkanization of the budget to ID the areas that really cayse the deficit.

The HTF has been negative for several years. The difference between what is available and what is authorized is known as its obligational authority; this can range anywhere fron 85 to 105 percent over the last several years. Even when only 85 percent of the funding is available the real difference is not all that great because nearly all funds are contracted out to contractors trying to out-bid each other for the work.