Capping downtown highways

[EastsideAl]

It's fair to say that Oak Park's orthodox community is relatively affluent compared to, say, Hastings Street, which was completely destroyed by the freeway, isn't it? That's really what I'm getting at: the different treatments afforded organized communities with political connections and resources at their disposal and those lacking resources, organization and political heft.

What you say about the power of organization is basically correct. But one thing you have to take into account here the difference in the times of the projects. Back when Hastings St. was taken out for the construction of the Chrysler, expressways were mostly viewed as an unalloyed benefit and were being rammed through communities all over the country [[including other non-minority parts of Detroit) with very little effective organized opposition.

By the 1970s though, when 696 was built, organized opposition to freeway construction, and the destruction of communities and the environment that it wrought, was popping up all over the country. Projects around the U.S. were increasingly stalled, changed, scaled back, or scrapped altogether due to community opposition, including that from minority communities in several places. By the 80s the era of urban destruction by freeway construction was pretty much over.

For quite a while back in the '70s it looked as if the western portion of 696 would never be finished at all. As it was, it was the last major freeway built in the area and many others that were on the drawing board have never been, and almost certainly will never be, built.

[Hermod]

It's fair to say that Oak Park's orthodox community is relatively affluent compared to, say, Hastings Street, which was completely destroyed by the freeway, isn't it? That's really what I'm getting at: the different treatments afforded organized communities with political connections and resources at their disposal and those lacking resources, organization and political heft.

Hastings Street was considered to be the worst of Detroit's urban blight and the centerline of the Chrysler Freeway was purposely run right up Hastings Street instead of a couple of streets to the east or west. I remember reading that in the Chrysler Freeway design documentation when I worked for the Detroit Bureau of Expressway Design.

[Meddle]

I'm sure it is prohibitively expensive, but, given the way it's constructed, covering over the stretch of I-75 [[the Fisher Fwy. for us oldsters) north of downtown does seem like a really good idea. One that could provide both a little belt of attractive green space and help reestablish a continuity with the now mostly empty area to the immediate north.

Any covered section would have to be closed to flammable, explosive or hazardous loads the way sections of the Lodge [[7 to 8 mile) and the Ruether are. That would put all the through loads detoured via the Ford and create an even bigger traffic mess there.

[Bearinabox]

Hastings Street was considered to be the worst of Detroit's urban blight and the centerline of the Chrysler Freeway was purposely run right up Hastings Street instead of a couple of streets to the east or west. I remember reading that in the Chrysler Freeway design documentation when I worked for the Detroit Bureau of Expressway Design.

I don't think anyone is debating that, but poor people have to live somewhere. You can't bulldoze your way out of social problems.

[Meddle]

As it was, it was the last major freeway built in the area and many others that were on the drawing board have never been, and almost certainly will never be, built.

You mean like 275 from Novi to Pontiac? [[or whatever the state M- designation was going to be)

[Detroitnerd]

Hastings Street was considered to be the worst of Detroit's urban blight and the centerline of the Chrysler Freeway was purposely run right up Hastings Street instead of a couple of streets to the east or west. I remember reading that in the Chrysler Freeway design documentation when I worked for the Detroit Bureau of Expressway Design.

I'm aware of that, Hermod. The specific term was "blighted area." It was also the one neighborhood in the city that had a concentration of black political power through its density and neighborhood connections. I'm sure Detroit's leadership, which had closed ranks and alienated the black community after 1943's shameful white riot, was all to happy to demolish it. although the official documents referred to it not as "Negro removal" but as "removing blighted areas."

Correction: The southbound service drive was run down Hastings Street, not the centerline of I-75.

[Bearinabox]

Any covered section would have to be closed to flammable, explosive or hazardous loads the way sections of the Lodge [[7 to 8 mile) and the Ruether are. That would put all the through loads detoured via the Ford and create an even bigger traffic mess there.

So let there be a traffic mess. We're a city where people live, not a mechanism for moving explosives through and out the other side as quickly as possible. Quality of life for city residents should come first.

[EastsideAl]

You mean like 275 from Novi to Pontiac? [[or whatever the state M- designation was going to be)

Exactly. It was originally supposed to hook up with I-75 up north of Pontiac. But the project was scrapped in the late '70s and only that little residual M-5 highway was eventually built on the clear right-of-way up to Pontiac Trail.

Another one that was obviously mapped, and for which some land was already cleared, that was never built was the Davison extension from the Lodge to the Jeffries. And there are a multitude of others that were on the drawing board at one time.

[EastsideAl]

You can't bulldoze your way out of social problems.

Alas, that's not what they thought back in the '50s.

So let there be a traffic mess. We're a city where people live, not a mechanism for moving explosives through and out the other side as quickly as possible.

Which is why a lot of other cities ban the shipping of this sort of stuff on highways that run through their centers.

[gnome]

This is a rendering of all the projects that have been planned for Detroit and never done. It ran in the Free Press version of Parade magazine back in the early 1990's.

If you can piece it together, I75 is buried all along the stadia and foxtown stretch. You should know that the stadia are not there as they had not been dreamed of yet.

[ghettopalmetto]

Columbus has a cap over I-670 to better connect the downtown area to the Short North for pedestrian traffic. The same idea has been tossed around for a remake of Cleveland's Innerbelt [[I-90) freeway.

http://sites.google.com/site/freeway...-columbus-ohio

[Hermod]

Correction: The southbound service drive was run down Hastings Street, not the centerline of I-75.

Forgive me, I am 70 years old and I read the documents in 1961. Removal of Hastings Street was mentioned in the documents as a "good thing".

[gnome]

Columbus has a cap over I-670 to better connect the downtown area to the Short North for pedestrian traffic. The same idea has been tossed around for a remake of Cleveland's Innerbelt [[I-90) freeway.

http://sites.google.com/site/freeway...-columbus-ohio

Thank you for that link. That is a stunning solution to a whole host of problems. And it did remind me of the ponte vecchio

[jtf1972]

Thank you for that link. That is a stunning solution to a whole host of problems. And it did remind me of the ponte vecchio

I second this! Woodward needs it especially...

[wolverine]

Any covered section would have to be closed to flammable, explosive or hazardous loads the way sections of the Lodge [[7 to 8 mile) and the Ruether are. That would put all the through loads detoured via the Ford and create an even bigger traffic mess there.

It depends. From experience there are ways to design buildings or parks over an expressway and still permit hazardous cargo to pass beneath. It takes a lot of clever engineering though.

Basically the whole idea comes down to improved appearances and connections can make better neighborhoods, which can encourage new construction and more business. How that may impact downtown Detroit I'm not sure. But there are many places in the US where the idea of "capping" freeways is not a pipe dream.

[jtf1972]

Any covered section would have to be closed to flammable, explosive or hazardous loads the way sections of the Lodge [[7 to 8 mile) and the Ruether are. That would put all the through loads detoured via the Ford and create an even bigger traffic mess there.

Is it a good idea to allow flammable, explosive or hazardous materials through that section of I-75 anyway? Many cities have highways designed where a business loop branches off & heads downtown. Detroit's main highway plows right through the middle of downtown with a major traffic jam of a turn designed right in, all so they could clear Hastings Street!

[Russix]

I know the idea of capping highways has been discussed on the board before, but is there any stretches downtown where this is actually viable [[structurally)? There is little doubt there are some areas that could regain continuity between neighborhoods through a capped highway [[for example; capping the Lodge by Comerica Park/Foxtown and Brush Park or re-connecting Mexicantown), however, is this possible? I assume, nevertheless, that financially this is a pipedream.

In lieu of capping, how about a Park Ave Bridge? Not just any bridge too. 2 car lanes, 2 bike lanes, and nice landscaped pedestrian way. It would be way more feasible and have almost the same effect as capping.

[Gistok]

Russix, before the Fisher Fwy remodeling for the Stadia district, there used to be a Park Ave. bridge. With the Stadia/Foxtown exit ramps fartjer away [[overer near Grand River Ave.) I can't remember the reason for the removal of that bridge?

[Gsgeorge]

In lieu of capping, how about a Park Ave Bridge? Not just any bridge too. 2 car lanes, 2 bike lanes, and nice landscaped pedestrian way. It would be way more feasible and have almost the same effect as capping.

In Iieu of a Park Ave Bridge, how about we just cap the freeway. We don't have to go as far as Columbus with buildings and shops. The steel, concrete and landscape are NOT prohibitively expensive, and the fact that the caps won't have to support vehicle traffic and weights will help alleviate costs immensely. I could see this happening if Illitch built his Olympia II on Woodward btw Temple and the Fisher Fwy.

[Russix]

Russix, before the Fisher Fwy remodeling for the Stadia district, there used to be a Park Ave. bridge. With the Stadia/Foxtown exit ramps fartjer away [[overer near Grand River Ave.) I can't remember the reason for the removal of that bridge?

huh, there was one in 1997 http://www.clas.wayne.edu/photos/par...5739-25-56.pdf, but it was gone before I became familar with downtown. Well if capping doesn't support motorized traffic, than we should still have a Park Ave bridge to compliment capping.

[Meddle]

Is it a good idea to allow flammable, explosive or hazardous materials through that section of I-75 anyway?

Not really, no. It's possible that explosives are banned there anyways due to the proximity of so many buildings. I can't remember for sure.

[sirrealone]

As much as I can understand the benefits that this might do, there is simply no justification to put a cap on freeways where the pavements below are falling further into disrepair every day. The money for this would have to come from somewhere. Our state road budget is already underfunded. Our state general budget is a mess. Detroit and other municipalities have no money to do this. The federal budget is running a trillion dollars a year deficit. Unless citizens are willing to pay more taxes [[yeah, right), there is no way this could ever happen.

[ghettopalmetto]

As much as I can understand the benefits that this might do, there is simply no justification to put a cap on freeways where the pavements below are falling further into disrepair every day. The money for this would have to come from somewhere. Our state road budget is already underfunded. Our state general budget is a mess. Detroit and other municipalities have no money to do this. The federal budget is running a trillion dollars a year deficit. Unless citizens are willing to pay more taxes [[yeah, right), there is no way this could ever happen.

Would you say that more money would be available for projects like this if MDOT abandoned its plan to widen a stretch of I-75 for over $1 billion, saving [[at most) a whopping 30 seconds of your time?

If you look at the Columbus example, the cap actually consists of three bridges. One of these supports roadway traffic, and the other two support the buildings. In theory, then, an existing bridge over a freeway [[say, Woodward over I-75) could be complemented by constructing two new bridges that incorporate buildings on either side.

The problem I see with a fuck-and-chuck cap with a "park" on top is that it doesn't add visual interest and visual connectivity. It's just more of the residual "wide open spaces" that have decimated downtown Detroit. To wit, how many people other than Orthodox Jews on the Sabbath can be found utilizing the "parks" in Oak Park on a regular basis? To the average pedestrian in Columbus, it's not even apparent that one is walking over an Interstate highway when they're on the cap--it's simply a continuation of the urban streetscape. Beyond that, ODOT is able to use the lease revenues from the buildings to pay toward the construction costs of the project. How much revenue does a residual "park" generate? If you're going to spend the money, you might as well do it correctly. I think we've all seen the results of what happens when you try to do everything on the cheap.

[sirrealone]

Would you say that more money would be available for projects like this if MDOT abandoned its plan to widen a stretch of I-75 for over $1 billion, saving [[at most) a whopping 30 seconds of your time?

From Michigan Report Card "38% of roads are in poor condition, 28% of the bridges are structurally deficient or functionally obsolete, and U.S. truckers rate Michigan roads as 3rd worst in the country."

There would be much better ways to spend the $1b before freeway caps would be considered a wise use of funds. Get our good roads and bridges in the 80-85% range, and the state roads in the middle of the pack and then we can talk about capping freeways.

[Hermod]

Is it a good idea to allow flammable, explosive or hazardous materials through that section of I-75 anyway? Many cities have highways designed where a business loop branches off & heads downtown. Detroit's main highway plows right through the middle of downtown with a major traffic jam of a turn designed right in, all so they could clear Hastings Street!

In fairness, when the Chrysler was envisioned, the main north-south routes thru the city were the alternating one-way streets of John R and Brush. The Chrysler needed to go somewhere up that line parallel to Brush and John R. They chose the centerline which was the least expensive and which removed the "least desirable" infrastructure.

Detroit city does not need more freeways. The "Detroit metro area" probably needs the completion of the M-59 freeway.

I-275 to the west of Detroit needs better maintenance. If I-275 [[and I-696) are kept in a high degree of maintenance, it would take a lot of the through traffic off of the Ford, Fisher, and Chrysler in Detroit.

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