Woodward Line Stations

[ghettopalmetto]

[quote=Russix;109390]The M1Rail design doesn't really do much to help out a long range transit plan.[/quote]

The *reason* the M1 Rail project was proposed in the first place is because it fits into a long-range transit plan. Not only will it connect the future commuter rail / Amtrak station to the Central Business District, but it will be fully compatible with the Woodward Avenue Light Rail extension.

[Russix]

[quote=ghettopalmetto;109440]

The M1Rail design doesn't really do much to help out a long range transit plan.[/quote]

The *reason* the M1 Rail project was proposed in the first place is because it fits into a long-range transit plan. Not only will it connect the future commuter rail / Amtrak station to the Central Business District, but it will be fully compatible with the Woodward Avenue Light Rail extension.

The Woodward Common Segment was proposed first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2wh3rXaMLM
M1 Rail was envisioned later as a privatized solution. M1 Rail is not the grand creation of a highly scalable transit infrastructure, merely an extension to the People Mover. http://www.freep.com/uploads/images/2008/09/0912_transitgraphic.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL7QEQuRqq0
I believe it will have positive results, it just doesn't propose to dramatically improve transit in the corridor its serving, atleast not compared to its alternative, the Woodward Common Segment. I believe the Woodward Avenue Light Rail extension, if even built, will be fully compatible to the existing M1 Rail configuration. But I don't believe the desire to extend M1 Rail past Grand Blvd will ever materialize, the City can't afford it, the Feds have real transit projects across the country to fund[[with real local match transit authorities, not quazi government-business interest groups), and the suburbs are quite happy to motor down to M1 Rail and skip out on the huge price tag of the whole regional light rail thing, especially if the model your showing them is M1 Rail.

[Tig3rzhark]

[quote=Russix;109466]

The Woodward Common Segment was proposed first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2wh3rXaMLM
M1 Rail was envisioned later as a privatized solution. M1 Rail is not the grand creation of a highly scalable transit infrastructure, merely an extension to the People Mover. http://www.freep.com/uploads/images/2008/09/0912_transitgraphic.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL7QEQuRqq0
I believe it will have positive results, it just doesn't propose to dramatically improve transit in the corridor its serving, atleast not compared to its alternative, the Woodward Common Segment. I believe the Woodward Avenue Light Rail extension, if even built, will be fully compatible to the existing M1 Rail configuration. But I don't believe the desire to extend M1 Rail past Grand Blvd will ever materialize, the City can't afford it, the Feds have real transit projects across the country to fund[[with real local match transit authorities, not quazi government-business interest groups), and the suburbs are quite happy to motor down to M1 Rail and skip out on the huge price tag of the whole regional light rail thing, especially if the model your showing them is M1 Rail.

The only way that the Woodward Light Rail will ever extend to Oakland County is if a regional transit authority is established THIS YEAR! Since December 2009, there has been little news of the establishment of that authority. Meanwhile, SMART has raised its rates and DDOT has made service cuts and is still barely able to stand on its own two feet.

What can be done in the meantime is that the cities surrounding Woodward Ave can give signal and lane priority to both SMART and DDOT buses so they can run more efficiently.

Also it must be made clear at all bus stops that people know that SMART cannot pick up passengers once entering Detroit and that SMART will not drop off passengers until it reaches past city limits. Usually, visitors and even some residents don't find out until the bus drops off passengers and drives off leaving those waiting on a bus, mad and frustated.

Personally, I believe that both SMART and DDOT should be merged together once the establishment of a regional transit authority is complete. It is ridiculous the way that mass transit is currently handled here. Most of the routes are duplicated by each transit system with one system running it more efficiently than the other. To have one regional authority handle the mass transit needs of the area would move things along and save the city of Detroit a lot of money and make things easier for visitors to find their way around the metropolitian area.

[professorscott]

This would be a good idea:

"What can be done in the meantime is that the cities surrounding Woodward Ave can give signal and lane priority to both SMART and DDOT buses so they can run more efficiently."

The only problem is one of jurisdiction. The cities can't do anything whatever with the traffic control system on Woodward because Woodward is an M- road except in the very heart of downtown Detroit. Only MDOT can change how the signals work on Woodward.

[Bearinabox]

This would be a good idea:

"What can be done in the meantime is that the cities surrounding Woodward Ave can give signal and lane priority to both SMART and DDOT buses so they can run more efficiently."

The only problem is one of jurisdiction. The cities can't do anything whatever with the traffic control system on Woodward because Woodward is an M- road except in the very heart of downtown Detroit. Only MDOT can change how the signals work on Woodward.

I've noticed that the Transit Windsor tunnel buses have signs on the back of them directing drivers to yield for a bus pulling out of a stop into traffic. This is also something I've noticed in other cities, where apparently there is some sort of ordinance giving priority to buses over through traffic. I've often wondered whether such a law could be enacted or enforced in Detroit, and if simply painting such a sign on the backs of buses would have any effect whatsoever. Detroit is a less law-abiding city than most, but I don't think it could hurt.

[Russix]

"Only MDOT can change how the signals work on Woodward"
This a good thing. Let's do a traffic prioritized limited stop SMART bus on Woodward overlapped by local services on both sides of 8 mile with no boarding/deboarding restrictions and call it a day.

[MichMatters]

M1 Rail is not the grand creation of a highly scalable transit infrastructure, merely an extension to the People Mover.

You know, I'd never thought of it in that way, and it actually makes more sense to view it that way: a Midtown-New Center PM spur that collects into the downtown circulator. It's why the part north of Grand is being developed more as a light rail line [[as opposed to the more frequently stopping streetcar through New Center-Midtown-Downtown).

[ghettopalmetto]

You know, I'd never thought of it in that way, and it actually makes more sense to view it that way: a Midtown-New Center PM spur that collects into the downtown circulator. It's why the part north of Grand is being developed more as a light rail line [[as opposed to the more frequently stopping streetcar through New Center-Midtown-Downtown).

It's not uncommon to have a light rail line with stations spaced further apart in outlying areas and closer together in the Central Business District. See Baltimore as a perfect example of this.

I think it's fallacy to assume the M1 Rail project is merely a shuttle between New Center and the DPM, considering that any transfers will require a separate fare. From what I've seen, the M1 Rail station locations in the CBD would actually make the DPM obsolete [[if it wasn't already).

[MichMatters]

If I wasn't clear, I wasn't talking about viewing the M1 as a literal extension of the DPM, but I do think it will function as such, and that M1 Rail will function more as a curb-side streetcar, and the DTOGS line a traditional light rail. I'm talking about function, here.

I really don't see, either, how the section of the M1 Rail on Lower Woodward makes the DPM obsolete. The DPM functions as a downtown circulator ring. If anything, it'll make the DPM even more important, because many of the stops are far enough away from Woodward that people at, say, the RenCen or Cobo that may have not had any reason to use it, before, will use it to get to an M1 stop on Woodward or to get to Rosa Parks Transit Center, which may turn out to be the terminus of any light rail system, downtown.

[professorscott]

Interesting posts, all! Ideally M1 Rail and DTOGS will be a single system; that is, M1 Rail will start operating, and then the City or the RTA or whoever will build DTOGS out to Eight Mile or [[if we can grow a slightly larger brain) 11 Mile or 15 Mile, and that line will operate as a single system all the way to downtown, not two systems.

The function of the People Mover will depend on several things, and I don't think they have been completely decided upon yet:
1. Will M1 Rail go all the way to the river, or save money by stopping short southbound and allow DPM to handle downtown circulation?
2. Even if M1 Rail goes all the way to the river, will there be a stop with an excellent connection to DPM?
3. Will DPM invest in fare collection equipment that will allow people to use transfers instead of always having to pay a separate fare?

It would be a simple matter to design an overall downtown transit plan that would take advantage of DPM, which is a system that already exists and which we do not have to construct. It's a matter of everyone sitting together and deciding to do it. Now, are we smart enough as a region to decide to do intelligent things? We'll see.

As to station spacing, it makes perfect sense, as has been noted, for closer spacing in any CBD and more distant spacing elsewhere. If we space the stations every couple blocks, as some have suggested, then all we are doing is replacing local buses with local streetcars, and that is not enough benefit to justify a half-billion dollar investment IMO. What we need, and lack, is any truly rapid transit, and to get that out of a surface rail line you have to limit the stops.

[ghettopalmetto]

In my opinion, it would be stupid [[and that's being kind) to try to incorporate the DPM into a regional light-rail system. Here are my reasons:

1. The DPM is useless as it is. Even if you had a light rail line terminate at the DPM "perimeter", transfers will not be made for the same reason people don't ride the DPM now: It's quicker to walk. Never mind the logistics of transferring from a street-level platform to an elevated station [[and vice-versa), and frankly, since DDOT is only now beginning to embrace 19th century technology, I don't see why they'd be so quick to rush to a smartcard fare payment system.

2. DPM is a *very* low-capacity mode. There's no way in hell it can capably serve as a distributor for even one light rail line [[which can move over 10,000 people / hour), let alone an entire system.

3. DPM is functionally obsolete and cost-ineffective. You'd be better off shutting it down than continuing to fund the 4 bucks [[or whatever the subsidy is now) for each 50 cent ride.

[Tig3rzhark]

In my opinion, it would be stupid [[and that's being kind) to try to incorporate the DPM into a regional light-rail system. Here are my reasons:

1. The DPM is useless as it is. Even if you had a light rail line terminate at the DPM "perimeter", transfers will not be made for the same reason people don't ride the DPM now: It's quicker to walk. Never mind the logistics of transferring from a street-level platform to an elevated station [[and vice-versa), and frankly, since DDOT is only now beginning to embrace 19th century technology, I don't see why they'd be so quick to rush to a smartcard fare payment system.

2. DPM is a *very* low-capacity mode. There's no way in hell it can capably serve as a distributor for even one light rail line [[which can move over 10,000 people / hour), let alone an entire system.

3. DPM is functionally obsolete and cost-ineffective. You'd be better off shutting it down than continuing to fund the 4 bucks [[or whatever the subsidy is now) for each 50 cent ride.

Let's say we do tear down the People Mover.

That would leave a lot of people walking around downtown. Structural changes would have to be made to some of the buildings Downtown which could take years. All of the People Mover stations would be torn down.

Woodward from Park Ave toward the Campus Martius loop is currently two lane on each side. If light rail is allowed in that area, Woodward would become too narrow for car traffic.

It will have to be accepted that if the original M1 proposal goes through and allows for rail traffic within the CBD, that car traffic within the area would have to be limited.

The DPM could only work efficiently if all rail transit were elevated throughout the entire metro area. There are ways to make this happen with some exceptions.

I got a bad feeling though that the people that's going to create this is going to do a half-assed job. Tbis is the Metro Detroit area after all with the Big 3 in the area.

[Detroitnerd]

Sometimes I feel like I want to give up. Like just move to someplace where they have a light rail system in place and are expanding it, instead of here where people actually consider preposterous ideas like building a monorail transit system! Why, oh, why are so many people stuck in freakin' 1963?

[ghettopalmetto]

Let's say we do tear down the People Mover.

That would leave a lot of people walking around downtown.

Oh, heavens no! Not foot traffic!

Structural changes would have to be made to some of the buildings Downtown which could take years.

Structural changes? Such as what? I'd be shocked if any part of the DPM supports any actual buildings.

Woodward from Park Ave toward the Campus Martius loop is currently two lane on each side. If light rail is allowed in that area, Woodward would become too narrow for car traffic.

And what if light rail circumvents Campus Martius, as is proposed in the M1 Rail plan?

It will have to be accepted that if the original M1 proposal goes through and allows for rail traffic within the CBD, that car traffic within the area would have to be limited.

Again, the stupidity of planning transit based on automobile traffic.

The DPM could only work efficiently if all rail transit were elevated throughout the entire metro area.

How do you figure? The DPM would work efficiently if it actually went somewhere beyond walking distance.

Tbis is the Metro Detroit area after all with the Big 3 in the area.

The same Big Three that support construction of a rapid transit system in Detroit? Do tell.

[Detroitnerd]

Maybe you're being a little too tough with the TigerShark. I could see somebody who had no idea how transit worked coming to those conclusions. Isn't our job to educate him instead of lecturing him? Just a thought. [[Must sound funny coming from me of all people.)

[ghettopalmetto]

Maybe you're being a little too tough with the TigerShark. I could see somebody who had no idea how transit worked coming to those conclusions. Isn't our job to educate him instead of lecturing him? Just a thought. [[Must sound funny coming from me of all people.)

If this were the first time the topic had been raised on this forum, I might be inclined to agree with you.

You don't claim things *have* to be done a certain way without providing support for the claim.

[Detroitnerd]

If this were the first time the topic had been raised on this forum, I might be inclined to agree with you.

You don't claim things *have* to be done a certain way without providing support for the claim.

I know. It does get frustrating to hear the same plans for a boutique transit system that allows Detroiters to keep driving their cars.

[Rocko]

Anyone else wondering why Detroit is pursuing a new Amtrak station right across from the current station in New Center? Don't get me wrong, good things are happening in New Center, but did we miss the fact that New Center is not the CBD? How many people are really going to take heavy commuter rail [[or Amtrak) to get downtown when they have to go to New Center first and then transfer to a bus or light rail for the ride down Woodward? Detroit should be pursuing some kind of plan, even if far off in the future, to get heavy rail back into the CBD. Two right-of-ways still exist with minimal demolition to make it happen....

[Detroitnerd]

Anyone else wondering why Detroit is pursuing a new Amtrak station right across from the current station in New Center? Don't get me wrong, good things are happening in New Center, but did we miss the fact that New Center is not the CBD? How many people are really going to take heavy commuter rail [[or Amtrak) to get downtown when they have to go to New Center first and then transfer to a bus or light rail for the ride down Woodward? Detroit should be pursuing some kind of plan, even if far off in the future, to get heavy rail back into the CBD. Two right-of-ways still exist with minimal demolition to make it happen....

I can only think they're determined to fail. Naturally, you'd want the rail terminus to be in the densest part of the city. But with Cobo and JLA in the way, they've cut off the best way into the city. My dream would be that the tracks go underground around Eighth Street or so, and run under Fort to a real downtown station. But that takes vision.

[Rocko]

Dnerd, my vision would be to run the tracks down the old but still intact FSUD alignment alongside W. Jefferson behind the post office, crossover to the north side of Jefferson at 6th Street, go through the [[demolished) JLA parking garage, cross over the Lodge, and then terminate at the corner of Washington Blvd. alongside Congress in the north corner of a renovated and expanded Cobo Hall. This downtown terminal would be more downtown than either Fort Street Union Depot or Brush Street station of the yesteryear. This would provide direct access for trains coming from Downriver and the airport [[via Delray), and the Michigan Line [[via MCS and the cut toward the River). With serious track improvements over the existing raised ROW, trains could come in from the north via West Detroit Junction. Otherwise, route them down the Dequindre Cut and have them tunnel under Congress after making a sweeping arc following the old alignment to Brush St. station as far as Riopelle, then cut over to Congress beginning just west of I-375.

There's my vision. Now someone can pay me to implement it!

[Detroitnerd]

Dnerd, my vision would be to run the tracks down the old but still intact FSUD alignment alongside W. Jefferson behind the post office, crossover to the north side of Jefferson at 6th Street, go through the [[demolished) JLA parking garage, cross over the Lodge, and then terminate at the corner of Washington Blvd. alongside Congress in the north corner of a renovated and expanded Cobo Hall. This downtown terminal would be more downtown than either Fort Street Union Depot or Brush Street station of the yesteryear. This would provide direct access for trains coming from Downriver and the airport [[via Delray), and the Michigan Line [[via MCS and the cut toward the River). With serious track improvements over the existing raised ROW, trains could come in from the north via West Detroit Junction. Otherwise, route them down the Dequindre Cut and have them tunnel under Congress after making a sweeping arc following the old alignment to Brush St. station as far as Riopelle, then cut over to Congress beginning just west of I-375.

There's my vision. Now someone can pay me to implement it!

Not bad. Nice to have passenger trains visible from the freeway. [[Hopefully with a sign that says: "Hate the traffic? Hop aboard!") But I wonder if the grade necessary to swoop down from above the Lodge would be too severe. I think that's why so many urban train stations have underground tracks: To smoothe the way for the grade.

[Rocko]

Good point. Metra in Chicago has such signs on some of their bridges.

The Lodge goes from a submerged freeway beneath Cobo to a submerged freeway beneath Fort Street [[and, interestingly enough, the WCCCD campus, which is built on top of the old FSUD site and trainsheds/tracks). I'm not sure why there is the small rise in the grade there except for ramps to Larned and JLA. If Joe Louis is demolished, those ramps will be unnecessary. The freeway could be lowered to continue to depth at Cobo and Fort St. and the tracks built at grade with the surrounding landscape.

[Detroitnerd]

Good point. Metra in Chicago has such signs on some of their bridges.

The Lodge goes from a submerged freeway beneath Cobo to a submerged freeway beneath Fort Street [[and, interestingly enough, the WCCCD campus, which is built on top of the old FSUD site and trainsheds/tracks). I'm not sure why there is the small rise in the grade there except for ramps to Larned and JLA. If Joe Louis is demolished, those ramps will be unnecessary. The freeway could be lowered to continue to depth at Cobo and Fort St. and the tracks built at grade with the surrounding landscape.

Rocko: You're hired. Here's $150 million.

[ghettopalmetto]

I can only think they're determined to fail. Naturally, you'd want the rail terminus to be in the densest part of the city. But with Cobo and JLA in the way, they've cut off the best way into the city. My dream would be that the tracks go underground around Eighth Street or so, and run under Fort to a real downtown station. But that takes vision.

With a regional rail network, I don't think it's plausible to assume that all destinations are going to be within walking distance of the terminal. Yes, you do want a healthy concentration of destinations within a few blocks, but you also need good connections to the densest part of your local transit network. There isn't any hope of having both the rail access and that kind of connection to local transit in the CBD anytime soon.

There are still big employers in the New Center area, and frequent light rail service down Woodward will both get passengers to the CBD and spur growth along the entire stretch of Woodward in between.

[Detroitnerd]

With a regional rail network, I don't think it's plausible to assume that all destinations are going to be within walking distance of the terminal. Yes, you do want a healthy concentration of destinations within a few blocks, but you also need good connections to the densest part of your local transit network. There isn't any hope of having both the rail access and that kind of connection to local transit in the CBD anytime soon.

There are still big employers in the New Center area, and frequent light rail service down Woodward will both get passengers to the CBD and spur growth along the entire stretch of Woodward in between.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.