Woodward Line Stations

[jtf1972]

The whole point of rapid transit is that it covers longer distances relatively quickly and efficiently. If the city stopped at the Boulevard, an all-bus system would be perfectly adequate. Still, if you have a viable plan for funding five more rail lines in the immediate future, I'm sure DDOT would be happy to hear you out.

I do!

We need a new Federal Transportation Plan where it is designed to put mass transit in all cities over 500,000 in population & commuter rail in suburban areas [[where light rail wold work perfectly, streamline the airlines and replace many air routes that would be better served by high-speed rail. It would all be designed to greatly lessen the burden on oil consumption. Automobiles should be a supplemental form of transit in metropolitan areas, not a primary means.

[professorscott]

Just to reiterate what I said in response to casscorridor's question: No, the second portion will not be completed quickly because it requires Federal funds, and it takes a very long time to go through that process [[not to mention there is zero guarantee the project will actually get funding).

It is conceivable but unlikely that the M1 Rail line could be operational in late 2011; I can't see any way that the public project could be built and operating before 2016 at the very earliest, and that's stretching it.

This is not IMO; there are facts involved here.

[casscorridor]

Just to reiterate what I said in response to casscorridor's question: No, the second portion will not be completed quickly because it requires Federal funds, and it takes a very long time to go through that process [[not to mention there is zero guarantee the project will actually get funding).

It is conceivable but unlikely that the M1 Rail line could be operational in late 2011; I can't see any way that the public project could be built and operating before 2016 at the very earliest, and that's stretching it.

This is not IMO; there are facts involved here.

2016, that is rediclious. The public should not stand for such incompitancy, if it so happens. But I really think 2013-14 will be around when light-rail will strech to the Fairgrounds. There has been a shift in the federal government, the Obama administration wants start putting more money into urban areas, and less into suburban, turning the tide of 50 years. Now how big this shift is, I don't know, but there will be more federal money to build mass transit.

Obama stated he would prioritize "shovel ready" projects. Having private money construct the first phase gives us an advantage because we'll have a better chance of getting more federal money, quicker, than had we not.

DTOGS has been going on for years now, I don't see how it can take 6 more years from now. I don't know the progress of the environmental impact study, but it is probably done or close to being finished.

In addition, there has been tremendeous attention at all levels, at the grassroots, our local politicans, state reps, our congresspeople, all have given commitments toward light-rail on Woodward, most recently Rep. Kilpatrick announced the M1 money would qualify as a match for the federal funds.

And Michigan is working on a regional transportation authority for Detroit.

There are many things that can be done to fund more projects, including increasing gas tax and adding toll roads, among other things. Once people see how succesful the initial line on Woodward is, funding will start flowing faster.

[casscorridor]

The whole point of rapid transit is that it covers longer distances relatively quickly and efficiently. If the city stopped at the Boulevard, an all-bus system would be perfectly adequate. Still, if you have a viable plan for funding five more rail lines in the immediate future, I'm sure DDOT would be happy to hear you out.

I agree rapid transit should cover longer distances than a bus, but the first phase of Woodward is going to Grand Blvd. So once people see how succesfull it is, it will be extended to Fairgrounds. I think for a second line, instead of doing a whole Avenue from downtown to city limits as the first phase, make it go half on one avenue and half on the other. That way, the core of the city develops, and makes an extentions more viable.

It makes no sense to me why in Hertel's plan it calls for only one line of LRT, and then BRT or LRT on a couple other corridors, and the Gratiot one extends all the way to M-59, continuing down it. This makes no sense. With all the talk of not enough density to support mass transit, why would a place like M-59 need it? Instead, why not have light-rail to French street, later extended to 8 Mile? While at the same time having rail built on either Michigan or Grand River. Answer: Hertel's plan is a pile of shit.

[Bearinabox]

I agree rapid transit should cover longer distances than a bus, but the first phase of Woodward is going to Grand Blvd. So once people see how succesfull it is, it will be extended to Fairgrounds. I think for a second line, instead of doing a whole Avenue from downtown to city limits as the first phase, make it go half on one avenue and half on the other. That way, the core of the city develops, and makes an extentions more viable.

So instead of one useful rail line that will actually help increase mobility and stimulate development in underutilized areas, you want two short little crappy lines that won't do much of anything until someone gets more money and extends them. Were you in charge of building the People Mover?

[dtowncitylover]

I agree rapid transit should cover longer distances than a bus, but the first phase of Woodward is going to Grand Blvd. So once people see how succesfull it is, it will be extended to Fairgrounds. I think for a second line, instead of doing a whole Avenue from downtown to city limits as the first phase, make it go half on one avenue and half on the other. That way, the core of the city develops, and makes an extentions more viable.

It makes no sense to me why in Hertel's plan it calls for only one line of LRT, and then BRT or LRT on a couple other corridors, and the Gratiot one extends all the way to M-59, continuing down it. This makes no sense. With all the talk of not enough density to support mass transit, why would a place like M-59 need it? Instead, why not have light-rail to French street, later extended to 8 Mile? While at the same time having rail built on either Michigan or Grand River. Answer: Hertel's plan is a pile of shit.

I'll agree with you that it makes no sense to have it extend to M-59, but Hertel's plan in pretty bold in the size and scope of the end result.

[East Detroit]

Is this thread like experimental theatre where the negative forces of DetroitYes act out the reasons why Gerald Ford was unable to gift us mass transit in the last century?

If so, bravo and brava!

[casscorridor]

So instead of one useful rail line that will actually help increase mobility and stimulate development in underutilized areas, you want two short little crappy lines that won't do much of anything until someone gets more money and extends them. Were you in charge of building the People Mover?

Two shorter lines instead of one long on will stimulate development in underutilized areas. I think it will more, because development will be concentrated at the core. Besides, more people live w/o cars in the core anyway. I dont think the rail needs to be extended past 8 mile at all. 1 line from the river to Birmingham, which many propose, would be like 3 lines in the inner city!!!!! Way more effect on underutilized area. Those areas past the core are universaly car dominated besides a few places.

Woodward to Brimingham or Woodward to Fairgounds, Michigan to Wyoming and Gratiot to French. Take your pick.

[Bearinabox]

Two shorter lines instead of one long on will stimulate development in underutilized areas. I think it will more, because development will be concentrated at the core. Besides, more people live w/o cars in the core anyway. I dont think the rail needs to be extended past 8 mile at all. 1 line from the river to Birmingham, which many propose, would be like 3 lines in the inner city!!!!! Way more effect on underutilized area. Those areas past the core are universaly car dominated besides a few places.

Woodward to Brimingham or Woodward to Fairgounds, Michigan to Wyoming and Gratiot to French. Take your pick.

This post makes no sense.

[MichMatters]

M1 Rail is supposed to breakground this summer, and comply with federal rules so that it'll be able to link up with DTOGS's line when that one goes through the necessary process. BTW, if anyone has any problems with the current stations and locations along this currently proposed line, they'd be best to direct their concern and/or ire and anger at those developing this line, and those developing the line, solely.

[dtowncitylover]

On a slightly related matter, only being public transporation, is anyone else more excited about the commuter rail between Detroit and Ann Arbor? Don't get me wrong, I would love to have access to Detroit with ease, but I just have more of an interest in commuter rail.

[MichMatters]

I don't. The commuter rail will be using regular passenger cars, infrequently on an existing rail line, and will have to share it with freight. Not anywhere near as 'sexy' or interesting since it already involves existing infrastructure, if you ask me. I don't know, it just seems like an ever-so-slightly more specialized Amtrak service, to me.

[ASR89]

Zach, I am excited for both projects too but in the near-term, I am more excited about the commuter rail project. I live in Westland and go to school at EMU in Ypsilanti. This fall, there's a good chance that I will be over there 4-5 days a week for 6-8 hours if I get accepted into this intership program I'll be applying for. If the train schedules match up with my class and internship schedule, I would gladly park at the station and take the train the rest of the way. By my estimates, it should take me about the same time door to door. Instead of spending 15 minutes of that in traffic, I could be reading the new posts on the Discuss Detroit forums here, eating breakfast or cramming for an exam at the last minute.

Market the project, make the schedules reasonable, make the ticket prices affordable and on a lesser but still meaningful point, fix the Ann Arbor parking situation, and I believe the experimental project will be a success, leading to more round trips and more ridership. If you haven't caught the latest update, go here:

http://www.semcog.org/AADD_AdditionalMaterials.aspx

There isn't any major news, but it's nice to know that the project is on track.

[MichMatters]

ljbad89,

The link you posted shows the last update for the project to be a year-old, this month [[i.e. January 2009).

[stasu1213]

I think the reason why the stops would be blocks and blocks from each otner on this rail line is to keep DDOT busses running. That way the the bus drivers would keep their jobs, the union will be happy, and the oil and auto companies who controls the politician in Detroit could still push their products; gasoline, cars, and rubber[[tire)

[Bearinabox]

I think the reason why the stops would be blocks and blocks from each otner on this rail line is to keep DDOT busses running. That way the the bus drivers would keep their jobs, the union will be happy, and the oil and auto companies who controls the politician in Detroit could still push their products; gasoline, cars, and rubber[[tire)

I think it's because if you make the thing stop every three feet it'll take a week to get downtown from the Fairgrounds. Not everything is a fucking conspiracy.

[dtowncitylover]

I don't. The commuter rail will be using regular passenger cars, infrequently on an existing rail line, and will have to share it with freight. Not anywhere near as 'sexy' or interesting since it already involves existing infrastructure, if you ask me. I don't know, it just seems like an ever-so-slightly more specialized Amtrak service, to me.

No, I understand your POV.

I've never understand why the DDOT union would be so upset. I'm sure the LRT will be unionized which means more members and that means more money for the union. What's their beef?

[dtowncitylover]

ljbad89,

The link you posted shows the last update for the project to be a year-old, this month [[i.e. January 2009).

There is an October 2009 update. Sort of old, but it's not a year!

http://www.semcog.org/AADD.aspx

[stasu1213]

I think it's because if you make the thing stop every three feet it'll take a week to get downtown from the Fairgrounds. Not everything is a fucking conspiracy.

If everything is not a conspiracy why didn't Detroit get it's light rail system many years ago. Of course it would be a waste of time for this rail system to stop at every stop. Even someone like you could understand that; but it has to be design so that the regular bus system could still benefit from it also for local stop to stop communte. I would be surprise if groundbreaking would even start this summer. Discussions about groundbreaking had been going on for years to no avail. There was a link that came on this site last year about GM's affect on the street cars not only in Detroit but the whole country. I believe that the events that are happening in Detroit are the results of Crises, Chaos, Solution. I would like to add this thought; why wasn't the Dequindre Cut used for the first phase of light rail? Why make it a walking trail instead? It runs North to South. If not light rail; it could had been made into a wide street for express busses only that would take you from downtown Detroit to Pontiac. A sidewalk could had been placed on the side. The federal government could had funded that and it probably would had been completed faster than the first phase of the decquindre cut being made into a walking trail

[Bearinabox]

If everything is not a conspiracy why didn't Detroit get it's light rail system many years ago.

Okay, you got me. I guess everything is a conspiracy.

Of course it would be a waste of time for this rail system to stop at every stop. Even someone like you could understand that;

Someone like me? What am I like, in your mind?

but it has to be design so that the regular bus system could still benefit from it also for local stop to stop communte.

The system was designed by professionals based on research and successful examples from other cities. It has to be designed so it will work. It is.

I would be surprise if groundbreaking would even start this summer. Discussions about groundbreaking had been going on for years to no avail. There was a link that came on this site last year about GM's affect on the street cars not only in Detroit but the whole country. I believe that the events that are happening in Detroit are the results of Crises, Chaos, Solution.

This is irrelevant and borderline gibberish. I have no response.

I would like to add this thought; why wasn't the Dequindre Cut used for the first phase of light rail? Why make it a walking trail instead?

Rail will have more of an effect on Woodward. Rail running in a ditch surrounded by nothing will have no effect on development and will be relatively useless to area residents.

It runs North to South. If not light rail; it could had been made into a wide street for express busses only that would take you from downtown Detroit to Pontiac.

I think you're forgetting that the vast majority of that rail corridor is still used by freight and Amtrak trains.

A sidewalk could had been placed on the side. The federal government could had funded that and it probably would had been completed faster than the first phase of the decquindre cut being made into a walking trail

How? Federal funds, as we're seeing with this light rail project, take a long time to apply for and receive. Making a walking trail was about the easiest thing that could have been done with that ditch, apart from just leaving it as it was.

What I really don't understand about this rail project is that, if implemented as designed, it will be one of the best things to happen to this poor fucked-up town in a very, very long time, and all anyone can do about it is bitch. "We want a subway or an elevated rail!" "all it is is a conspiracy to keep bus drivers and rubber companies in business!" "It should stop more often!" "It should stop less often!" "It's too expensive!" "It should be built faster!" "They should use the Dequindre Cut!" "Waaaaaaah!" Has it ever occurred to you that maybe the folks in charge of this thing have no ulterior motives? That they're working very hard with a very bad situation and are, against all odds, closer to succeeding than anyone before them? That maybe they have some clue what they're doing? That all the research they put into this project maybe helped them decide how to build it? I'm baffled by all the complaining, and I'm more cynical than most.

[ASR89]

ljbad89,

The link you posted shows the last update for the project to be a year-old, this month [[i.e. January 2009).

Although it says 2009, that's a mistake. Open it up and it's for 2010. Seems I'm not the only one still writing and typing 2009 on papers.

[dbc]

I think the introduction of commuter and light rail projects for the area is fantastic and long overdue, but - like many other posters on here - some things concern me.

[[1) I believe the M1 project plans to have curbside stations that share traffic with cars instead of using a designated lane in the Woodward median like the DTOGS project. [[Does anyone know if this is a sure thing or is it still being hashed out?)

[[2) Doesn't the Ann Arbor-Detroit commuter train stop at the Amtrak station on W. Baltimore? If so, are people from Ann Arbor/the suburbs really going to get on a DDOT bus to go into the CBD? [[I know the Tigers promotion from Oakland County to the Amtrak Station worked out well, but weren't those shuttle buses?)

Just my observations. But, again, I'm still really excited about these developments, and I trust they will do their homework to maximize ridership.

[MichMatters]

dcb, welcome [[I can see your new).

The light rail line will reach the Amtrack station, when it gets built, which wouldn't be long after the commuter service starts.

BTW, on the issue of DDOT and support for the rail, is anyone forgetting that DDOT commissioned the study for, and pushed for, the light rail project? That, and is anyone forgetting that until a regional transit authority is formed [[and, god knows when that'll be), at the very least, the section from New Center to the Fairground will be DDOT-owned and operated. While the shortening of DDOT's Woodward line when M1 takes over that section may put a driver or two out of work, its safe to say that they better be much more concerned about the culling of their ranks from Dave Bing than M1's single, short line.

[stasu1213]

Once new retail stores comes to merchants row and the new center area on woodward plus the open air mall on 8mile and woodward, the light rail system would be well used and traveled to get from one shopping district to another without many stops

[Russix]

I have a question about station alignments for the Woodward Line light-rail.
DTOGS vs. M1* I don't think the final station alignments have been announced.

Foxtown [[I hate this name and propose moving it to Grand Circus Park for DPM connection)
Temple*
MLK/Mack [[Medical Center South)
Canfield [[Medical Center North)*
Warren [[Cultural Center)
Palmer [[Wayne State University)*
Piquette
Grand
Euclid - my proposed new station
Hazelwood [[my proposed change location 2 block north to Clairmount)
Calvert
Glendale
Manchester
McNichols
7 Mile
Fairgrounds


Grand Blvd/New Center station just south of Grand Blvd. I think this is too far from the next proposed station, Hazelwood [[.8 Miles), so I recomend adding a station at Euclid [[.5 miles) and moving the next station 2 blocks north of Hazelwood, which is Clairmount [[.45 miles from previous station, Euclid and .5 miles to next station, Clavert). After that the stations would begin getting further apart. Especialy after McNichols, where 1 mile spacing would begin.

It is my opinion, that if the entire track has an exclusive Right-of-way, with traffic signal priority, and that if the train is light-rail and not street car, it can be superior to driving, even with added stations. Stations closer together maxamizes their impact on the neighborhoods. Let's count on a seperate commuter rail for commuter traffic from northern Oakland county. The Fairgrounds station is close enough to the Southern Oakland county suburbs to park and ride.

Anyway, my question is, What do you all think?

Yes an exclusive right of way is superior, by why spend the money when the base of your ridership will drive on the freeway to the city core, ride around on the streetcar on their lunch hour, and then wheel home at the end of the day. The M1Rail design doesn't really do much to help out a long range transit plan, it does cater very specifically to its target market and I give credit to the private backers for being, basically, very good business persons. The rest of us need to pray that this line doesn’t further drain the city’s transit budget and bring about more cuts.