Bret Hume say Tiger Woods should...

[EMG]

Stosh, I apologize for earlier misunderstanding you. Based on some of your posts I had assumed you to be a non-believer, and that was obviously an erroneous conclusion. I do agree with some of the things you say, but disagree with others.

1) I definitely agree with the statement that there are people who call themselves Christians who are equivalent to modern Pharisees and Sadduccees. No argument there. However, I would consider it an overgeneralization to state that to be the case of "the average Christian."

2) As far as tithing "out of obedience" - well my opinion is even stronger than yours, but I have no doubt you will see where I am coming from. I generally see the "formal church" as unnecessary overhead. My charitable contributions go directly to the food bank - I see no need for the middleman. Yes, there are New Testament admonitions to not forsake meeting together with fellow believers - but that can actually be done in private homes and in private studies [[which I also in fact do). My background as an over-regulated Catholic no doubt has a lot to do with it, but I'm definitely a dropout as far as "going to church every Sunday out of some belief that God requires it." That said, I have nothing against organized churches and I do sometimes attend - and contribute when I do, but not out of obligation or fear that I'm going to get struck by lightening or worse if I don't, but because I want to. There is definitely a place and purpose for the organized church, particularly when it comes to providing teaching and guidance for newer believers [[I now am directly familiar enough with the gospel to see where it diverges from Catholic teachings, for example; yet at the same time it was the Catholic Church that provided the early training in my child to teen years that helped me develop the understanding to be able to make that discernment). On the other hand, once a church has provided all it can, and you're still attending the same services and hearing the same services year after year then there is no further spiritual purpose; you've learned everything they have to teach you and you might as well move on to more advanced studies from other sources.

3. The bottom line is that Jesus said that the two most important commandments are to love God and to love others. And absolutely, before you can even think about proselytizing to the poor and needy, it is necessary to address their immediate needs first. Jesus by His own example always did that. He forgave the adulteress, He healed the blind, He fed the 4,000 and 5,000, in each case BEFORE He went on to start telling them what they needed to do.

[Stosh]

Responses to EMG in order.
It's easy to misunderstand intent in message boards. No problem. I had you [[and others) pegged as fundies. See how easy that is?

1) I guess that you are correct. I guess a good qualifier would be "Christians that have tried to convert me to THEIR way of thinking" lately.

2) Another lapsed Catholic! What a surprise! Join the club.
Socially I am not too far away from them, aside from their birth control issues. Note I didn't mention abortion. I don't believe it is a good option or a choice I would make ethically, but I will still defend the right for a woman to have one.
Their thoughts on divorce are archaic as well. I would sooner give money to orgs that I know will do something with it to improve the human condition. Churches have a problem giving money to the right things.

3) Exactly. Now if you would get over bashing Chrysler in the other thread....

[EMG]

Responses to EMG in order.
It's easy to misunderstand intent in message boards. No problem. I had you [[and others) pegged as fundies. See how easy that is?

1) I guess that you are correct. I guess a good qualifier would be "Christians that have tried to convert me to THEIR way of thinking" lately.

2) Another lapsed Catholic! What a surprise! Join the club.
Socially I am not too far away from them, aside from their birth control issues. Note I didn't mention abortion. I don't believe it is a good option or a choice I would make ethically, but I will still defend the right for a woman to have one.
Their thoughts on divorce are archaic as well. I would sooner give money to orgs that I know will do something with it to improve the human condition. Churches have a problem giving money to the right things.

3) Exactly. Now if you would get over bashing Chrysler in the other thread....

1. Agreed.

2. Actually I do agree with the Catholic teachings on just about all of those issues. I am definitely staunchly pro-life, believe life begins at conception [[consider for example Psalm 139) and therefore consider there to be no difference between a "right" to abortion and a "right" to murder one's child at any time after birth. As far as birth control, I disagree with sterilization but don't have any problem with abstinence, rhythm, or barrier methods. I always say that I agree pretty much with the Catholic MORALITY; it's the Catholic THEOLOGY I have a problem with. And interestingly enough, I know many people who call themselves Catholic, and yet their beliefs on all of the above are pretty much similar to mine.

3. Heh, heh. I held back for nearly 20 years because I had to while I worked for the company. Now that I can be honest about my feelings and my experiences with their junk and their scam-artist dealers, it's going to be a long time before I'm done letting it all out. But you can always pray for a miracle! Maybe about the time the liberals stop bashing Fox news...

[Stosh]

1. Agreed.

2. Actually I do agree with the Catholic teachings on just about all of those issues. I am definitely staunchly pro-life, believe life begins at conception [[consider for example Psalm 139) and therefore consider there to be no difference between a "right" to abortion and a "right" to murder one's child at any time after birth. As far as birth control, I disagree with sterilization but don't have any problem with abstinence, rhythm, or barrier methods. I always say that I agree pretty much with the Catholic MORALITY; it's the Catholic THEOLOGY I have a problem with. And interestingly enough, I know many people who call themselves Catholic, and yet their beliefs on all of the above are pretty much similar to mine.

Why disagree with sterilization? It prevents contraception which is the whole argument about abortion. Prevents that from happening, yet they insist on stopping all conraception. Insanity!

3. Heh, heh. I held back for nearly 20 years because I had to while I worked for the company. Now that I can be honest about my feelings and my experiences with their junk and their scam-artist dealers, it's going to be a long time before I'm done letting it all out. But you can always pray for a miracle! Maybe about the time the liberals stop bashing Fox news...

Meh. The truth lies somewhere between your extreme views and my polyannish views I think. Honestly I feel that there's some really good things coming down the pike for the company. Some dealers are crap, I know. Most are not.

And Fox gets everything that they have coming to them. Anyone that would hire Miss Anality of 2008 would deserve every brickbat thrown at them. I mean COME ON... How many takes will it take before she gets it right? And God help them if she goes rougue...

[EMG]

Why disagree with sterilization? It prevents contraception which is the whole argument about abortion. Prevents that from happening, yet they insist on stopping all conraception. Insanity!

I agree that "stopping all contraception" is insanity, but, as stated before, I favor barrier methods. I don't think methods that permanently destroy natural functions of the body are morally acceptable [[admittedly - my personal interpretation; not necessarily based on an explicit Scripture). Another whole issue is how it gets distorted by some liberals. Biblically, sex is restricted to married couples; therefore, the topic of contraception within marriage is one thing and the fact that its availability makes outside-of-marriage sin more feasible and therefore more tempting is quite another. [[That's a controversy worthy of entire forums, I know. Do you tell Johnny he must keep himself zipped up at all times no matter what and hope for the best? Or do you send a mixed message by giving him a condom "just in case he can't control himself"? Or do you give him permission to get through the premarital years with masturbation [[of course if you're raising him Catholic that's supposed to not be an option either). There's a line between Scriptural teaching and "insanity," and it's admittedly not always easy to find.

Why disagree with sterilization? It prevents contraception which is the whole argument about abortion. Prevents that from happening, yet they insist on stopping all conraception. Insanity!


Meh. The truth lies somewhere between your extreme views and my polyannish views I think. Honestly I feel that there's some really good things coming down the pike for the company. Some dealers are crap, I know. Most are not.

And Fox gets everything that they have coming to them. Anyone that would hire Miss Anality of 2008 would deserve every brickbat thrown at them. I mean COME ON... How many takes will it take before she gets it right? And God help them if she goes rougue...

Well, obviously there are some things about which we will NEVER agree.

[Stosh]

Never say never....

[rb336]

Biblically, sex is restricted to married couples;

actually, it's not. plenty of references to Yahweh encouraging concubines

[Sstashmoo]

Rb, that is the Old Testament you're referring to. The New testament is quite clear on the issue of adultery.

[rb336]

so the old testament isn't "biblically speaking"?

yes, the NT, in the few places it mentions it, is much harsher, although it does seem to condone plural marriage except for elders of the church. remember, divorcees, according to matthew 5, are adulterers if they remarry