Convince me not to go...

**tahleel** · January-01-10, 09:12 PM

I've been a Detroiter [[proper) for over two decades. I've lived both within the city and the suburbs. I will soon graduate from Wayne State, holding two bachelor's degrees and I've been debating to move for the past year.

My parents made a wise decision to move to the Detroit area in the 80s due to the abundant jobs in the auto industry and great economy at the time. Now, they will both retire and want to go somewhere warmer, and so do I. I feel like not only will the warm weather be better for my happiness and enjoyment, but also for my physical and mental health. I feel like not only would it be a wise decision for me, and my parents, but also my future family who would be happier somewhere else besides Michigan.

There are so many reasons why I'd like to leave, which I will not go into because I want to keep this thread focused on the four areas listed below:

a.) Los Angeles area, California - Amazing weather. High in the 80s, low in the 60s, ALL YEAR ROUND! It is the biggest manufacturing center on the western side of America. It has amazing museums [[the DIA can't even hold a drop to LACMA), as well as a very diversified culture. Its also a key player in finance and trade [[largest seaport in western USA). I have some distant relatives here.

b.) Raleigh, North Carolina. Weather is warmer than Michigan. Many jobs available as well with companies that are growing. Low property taxes and great city services. I also have family here, which is a great plus.

c.) Atlanta, Georgia. Has one of the largest airports in the world. Warm weather and many jobs here as well. I have my closest uncles here and will help me with anything on a whim.

d.) Orlando or Miami, Florida. I will bunch both of these together, although I know that in some aspects they are very different. My parents want to move here for some odd reason, of all places. They say its close to my other family in NC and GA, but far enough to keep our distance.

There are several reasons why I want to stay though. Detroit is where I was born and raised. I have many great friends and connections here that I would lose if I were to move. More so, I would feel like I would lose all my roots if I were to move elsewhere. I also understand all the laws, and have been accustomed to the "system." I feel like if I were ever to pursue a career in politics or business, I would do well because of the people I know. I've spoken to friends who have moved out of the area and they all said you need to do what's best for you. I sometimes feel like if I can weather this storm, I would have many bright days to come. But then again, there are factors that I cannot change or are bigger than me: the climate, the racial division, high taxes, and etc.

Any advice, tips, and info is welcome!

-Tahleel

**gazhekwe** · January-01-10, 09:28 PM

Well, Orlando has a problem with lack of water, and it has toll roads instead of freeways if you want to go anywhere, and it has horrible five minute traffic lights. You don't want to go there. On the plus side, real estate in FL is reasonable right now. I'm looking at Titusville myself. I am so sick of winter.

**Mikeg** · January-01-10, 09:39 PM

You might like Washington DC, it's full of narcissists, many of whom help keep the place warm with their hot air.

**Patrick** · January-01-10, 09:40 PM

Try adding DC/Northern VA to the mix. It's better than all 4 places you listed. Better public transportation, more jobs, bettter museums, culture and just about everyting else except the weather part.

**Fury13** · January-01-10, 09:49 PM

DC seems like a great place to live, so does Philly.

A lot of those towns you mention are sunbelt, non-walkable, non-urban places where most development has occurred in the last 40 years. If you want a place like that, choose the quintessential example: Vegas.

Sunny, comfortable, economically stable, and modern.

But seriously, griping about winter? Cold weather builds character. If you move to a warm state, you run the risk of losing that character.

**texorama** · January-01-10, 10:25 PM

You could move. The contempt for education in southeastern Michigan, which is unlike anything I've ever encountered anywhere else, sometimes makes me want to leave as well. But the weather isn't a good reason. When I lived elsewhere I found I really missed the dramatic four seasons.

Retroit · January-02-10, 12:30 AM

Won't it depend on where you can get a job? What are your degrees in, and what type of job do you want? [["...politics or business"?)

**tahleel** · January-02-10, 01:14 AM

Originally Posted by Retroit

Won't it depend on where you can get a job? What are your degrees in, and what type of job do you want? [["...politics or business"?)

That is the beauty of an area like that. It is thriving with many opportunities, and if the shoe doesn't fit, there's always another one to try out. I have a BS in Finance, and will complete my second BS in Accounting this semester. I've applied to several graduate programs. I've always had a job in Detroit, even in the worst of economies, I'm sure I can always find work over there.

-Tahleel

**EMG** · January-02-10, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by tahleel

That is the beauty of an area like that. It is thriving with many opportunities, and if the shoe doesn't fit, there's always another one to try out. I have a BS in Finance, and will complete my second BS in Accounting this semester. I've applied to several graduate programs. I've always had a job in Detroit, even in the worst of economies, I'm sure I can always find work over there.

Unless you're a skier or love snow, cold, ice, rain, and clouds for other reasons, there's only one reason for a person with those credentials to stay in Michigan, and that's the opportunity to make double or more the pay. The tradeoff for good weather is less money.

That said, it's a trade I made willingly and one I've never regretted. You see, what you have to remember is that making that extra Michigan money might allow you to save for retirement more quickly - BUT making the move and sacrificing the pay now allows you to ENJOY MORE OF YOUR LIFE RIGHT NOW [[unless you're a hermit who stays indoors and watches TV year 'round no matter what the weather).

I have a similar educational background to you, and moved to Arizona after being laid off from Chrysler. I found it next to impossible to get into the accounting field here - and that was in the 2001 economy, when presumably what we have today is even worse. Ultimately I wound up getting a second degree in a higher demand health care field. It doesn't pay what I made at Chrysler, but it is certainly enough to support a satisfactory lifestyle, But the most important part of all is that as a runner, bicyclist, and hiker, I can wake up on almost any day of the year and KNOW that I will be able to get out and do my activities without having to worry about getting rained on or frostbitten or shoveling snow or having a winter coat that's thick enough. [[It's almost impossible for a Michigander to fathom, but imagine, if you will, what it is like to just get dressed for a run or hike without even first looking out the window or listening to a weather forecast. I will never forget being at a meeting with my homeowner's association within a couple of months after moving in, when a party was being planned for a few months later. Thinking ahead, I suggested we plan for a "rain date" in case of bad weather [[a must in Michigan - but here in Arizona they all just laughed at me. Here we can almost just about KNOW it's going to be sunny!) After a month or two you'll wonder how you ever put up with the weather changing every five minutes. "Seasons" are great, but if you miss the snow you can always pop in a Christmas movie and if you miss the fall you can always buy some apple cider from Walmart and call up a youtube video of autumn leaves. Now - full disclosure - I am a heat nut. I am perfectly happy walking and running when it's 110 degrees - I just make sure to take lots of water with me. If you can't tolerate or don't like extreme heat, well, then, you'll be a prisoner to your climate-controlled house and June through September in Arizona would probably be just as unbearable to you as November through April in Michigan were to me.

The bottom line is it could well take you much longer to save up for retirement. You could very well wind up working for many more years than you originally planned. But the time between now and retirement is going to be of so much greater quality it will be well worth it. Being free of the Mushigan weather that takes away 60 percent or more of your potential leisure time is like adding that much more "retirement time" to your life - only you get it RIGHT NOW instead of having to wait until you're 67. Something to think about.

**tahleel** · January-02-10, 04:22 PM

Gsgeorge and wolverine. Cities that have busy and accessible airports and seaports can be significant for several reasons. If I were to start, for example an import/export business like my uncles have in Georgia and New York, having this framework in place is key. Besides starting a new business, an accessible airport/seaport are factors that companies look for when starting new ventures, and can lead to growth of a community [[and furthermore jobs) as new companies develop or expand into the areas. With that being said, I know its not THE most import factor, but still something to consider.

Public transportation is not an important factor for me. Although I have ridden the bus for many years of my life, I've owned my own car since I've been able to drive. I can always see myself owning some form of transportation and not relying on public transportation alone. Been there, done that!

As far as my status, I have never been married, nor do I have any kids. But when the time does come, I want to already have been settled in my community and not constantly move from place to place. This one move, will be the BIG move. After this move, I do not plan on moving anywhere else the rest of my life.

I will definitely apply for jobs before I do go. I won't jump in with my eyes closed! I just need to know which area best suites me before I start applying for jobs in cities that I would not like.

-Tahleel

**Scratch** · January-02-10, 01:24 AM

I've told some people in the Pacific NW about my visit to Detroit, and their response generally was, "You think that's bad, check out L.A. sometime." One guy even asked me to "give it at least 7 years, before you move down there like everyone seems to for some reason." Having family in the area does help a lot. Ask yourself honestly what you want to do, and good luck.

**revolutionary** · January-02-10, 03:52 AM

Those Southern and Western cities you mention have been growing, but that surely doesn't mean they are economicly stable, not to mention ecologicaly sustainable. Those cities are some of the most unsustainable places in the U.S. but they slogan is always growth, but at what costs? Atlanta has suffered mutiple severe doughts in the past decade. L.A. has seen wildfires. Orlando and Miami have seen drought and extreme tempetures, and Miami especialy is threatened by flooding in the decades to come. If you take into account the climate of these places, you also have to take into acount climate change-- and these places are more vunerable to shifts in the climate. And with an unquenching thirst for water, energy and resources these southern and western cities are on a collision course to crisis. The best city you mentioned in my opinion is Raleigh [[not counting Detroit) because it is not as threatened by a more chaotic and severe climate in the coming years.

I am of course not saying these cities can not adapt, or that northern cities are somehow models to follow. But generally northern cities are more sustainable. All of the country --South, North East and West-- needs to revolutionize our economy. Radically alter not only the way we treat resources, but the way we treat each other. We can have a sustainable economy, were we aren't taking more than can be replenished only if we have an equitable and democratic society. We can't have this under the endless growth model that is capitalism. We have to replace this with democratic and participatory planning over the economy. This way we can respect ecological limits, we can respect how decisions affect people and the environment. We can restore balance to our ecology, yet still be absolutely modern. Technology is a tool, and it can be applied to great horror and destruction, or it can be used for great good and creation. Capitalist development promotes using these tools for selfish reasons, and therefore produce socialy and environmentaly destructive outcomes. A participatory economy would promote using these tools for the benifit of all of society. It surely is a radical notion, but I believe it is an irresistable one and will eventaully take hold.

Why I bring this up is because I think Detroit can be a model for a sustainable city, and a particpatory economy.

**RickBeall** · January-02-10, 03:57 AM

Tahleel,
I will hate to see you go, but you will make great friends wherever you go. Go

And come back later if you get the urge.

**tahleel** · January-02-10, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by RickBeall

Tahleel,
I will hate to see you go, but you will make great friends wherever you go. Go

And come back later if you get the urge.

Rick,

Thanks for the encouraging words. I don't see a move in the immediate future, but in the next years. I might possibly buy something now, and sit on it when I'm ready to go. And of course, I would definitely come back!

-Tahleel

**davewindsor** · January-02-10, 05:16 AM

Let's see. Should you stay or get a 780sq. ft condo in Orlando for $17,900? http://orlando.condo.com/PropertyDet...spx?ID=6570930 If can you find a job that pays more than min. wage at Disneyworld, take it. If you can find cheap real estate near South Beach Miami, jump on it. How can you go wrong at those prices?

**tahleel** · January-02-10, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

Let's see. Should you stay or get a 780sq. ft condo in Orlando for $17,900? http://orlando.condo.com/PropertyDet...spx?ID=6570930 If can you find a job that pays more than min. wage at Disneyworld, take it. If you can find cheap real estate near South Beach Miami, jump on it. How can you go wrong at those prices?

Exactly. Real estate prices are so low that if I were to make a bad investment somewhere else, the gamble wouldn't be much of a loss. These low prices makes it extremely attractive to move else where.

-Tahleel

**gregster** · January-02-10, 08:34 AM

I can comment about Raleigh since I lived there. Everyone is different, but here's what I missed most compared to Detroit [[& its surrounding communes):

1. Very little ethnicity. You'll go for Thai food and it's actually a Chinese restaurant posing as Thai. You will find more Thai restaurants in Warren than in the entire state of North Carolina. There is almost nothing for Middle Eastern [[all variants), Indian, Vietnamese, or Ethiopian. If you like Olive Garden-style Italian, you'll love Raleigh. The only leg up they have is in Mexican, since many Mexican immigrants who live in more rural NC have created a need for cheap places [[$5 meals) to eat, and they are generally authentic, but I still prefer our Mexicantown.
2. Main industries are generally limited to very high tech [[biotech/pharma and networks/software). Finance jobs should be fairly easy to come by, but I can tell you that PhD's are what are truly in demand there. There are subsidiary industries [[property mgmt, some light manufacturing, media, university stuff, etc.), but they are not the biggest employers.
3. Traffic is bad and getting worse. They botched their attempts at light rail a few years ago, which would have done wonders to ease the traffic on the north Raleigh and Raleigh-Durham traffic ways.
4. Airport sucks for international flights. One [[expensive) flight to London Gatwick and that's it. This made trips to Asia and Europe into much longer trips than they should have been. Parking is also not as convenient at Detroit's two huge garages.
5. Pay is lower [[yes, as hard as that is to believe) for an identical position in Raleigh vs. Detroit.
6. No baseball, unless you go to Durham for a Bulls game. They are fun, but I still prefer the Tigers at Comerica and the atmosphere of downtown.

On the plus side, I found the people were generally friendlier and happier than Michiganians. Probably due to the warmer weather and lower unemployment. You will also find many northern transplants there [[the town of Cary, a suburb of Raleigh, is joked to stand for Containment Area for Relocated Yankees).

**Pam** · January-02-10, 08:57 AM

Don't go. We've lost too many people already.

http://detnews.com/article/20090402/...staggers-state

"Migration is good for the migrants but bad for the state they're leaving," said Mark Partridge, an economics professor at Ohio State University who specializes in the study of migration patterns. "It's a vicious downward cycle; the best and brightest leave; entrepreneurs don't come to the state because the best and brightest are elsewhere; as more people leave, that leaves fewer people to pay for services. Neither one will make Michigan a very appealing place." ......

• There will be fewer tax dollars to pay for those services, maintain roads or run schools. According to Senate Fiscal Agency estimates, the income leaving the state cost Michigan more than $100 million in personal income tax revenue in 2007 alone.

**East Detroit** · January-02-10, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by Mikeg

You might like Washington DC, it's full of narcissists, many of whom help keep the place warm with their hot air.

No doubt.

Originally Posted by tahleel

I feel like not only would it be a wise decision for me...

Glad we could help subsidize your education while you've blasted our industry and now want to move.

So, you've been taking and not giving. Therefore, our gain if you leave. Goodbye.

**daddeeo** · January-02-10, 09:48 AM

If you got family ties in the Carolinas, go there. Get out while you can before you get tied down with your own wife and kids.
Tennessee is another alternative.

Retroit · January-02-10, 09:54 AM

If you already have a job here and moving will not substantially increase your quality of life, I can't see a reason to leave.

I get a kick out of people who move to the south for the weather, yet spend the entire summer locked up indoors with the air conditioning running at 65 degrees.

**tahleel** · January-02-10, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by East Detroit

Glad we could help subsidize your education while you've blasted our industry and now want to move.

So, you've been taking and not giving. Therefore, our gain if you leave. Goodbye.

I'm sure my property or income taxes has paid for your kid[[s) school, or have paved/plowed the roads you drive on.

-Tahleel

**Patrick** · January-02-10, 10:42 AM

Glad we could help subsidize your education while you've blasted our industry and now want to move. So, you've been taking and not giving. Therefore, our gain if you leave. Goodbye.

What should Michigan do to retain its college graduates? Should grads stay and eek it out after graduation just for a sense of regional pride? Taxpayers will continue to subsidize future migrating graduates until WSU goes private or until the job market gets better. If you don't like your tax dollars paying for this, I suggest you push for making the larger universities private. The loss of grads will continue well into the future.

Ironically, when I was at Wayne State, several "counselors" pushed students to look for work out of state. Job fairs would bring in out of state employers as well. WSU, in a way, promoted the migration of recent grads to other states so I suppose they share some of the blame for this.

Retroit · January-02-10, 10:51 AM

^ Amen. Subsidized college education discriminates against those who do not go to college.

**Patrick** · January-02-10, 10:58 AM

Subsidized college education discriminates against those who do not go to college.

I am not usually one to side with Milton Friedman on this but he was right when he ripped into the California University system. However, I do not feel that higher education should be for profit such as University of Phoneix and others. The quality is diminished when dollars become the ultimate goal. In the end, how much longer can we keep graduating soft-degree majors only to have them work at Starbucks after graduation with $50K in loans?