Vigilante, hero, or killer?

**Zacha341** · January-02-10, 09:21 PM

I did not equate, I clarified -- should there have been confusion as there often is. A certain world view and prejudice is often ascribe to gun owners "overall". Thus, I will sometimes make a point to distinguish the diversity of legal gun owners [[politically and socially) for sake of clarity. Especially if and when broad references are made relative to guns and the distinction is NOT made.

When gun owners are summed up to be NRA "right-wingers" that often steers the opinion a certain way... and per my other posts, I never said I fully "agreed" with what this individual did... I think there is a frustration building and sadly many are acting out from that. However, my detailed comments mainly center on gun ownership and use as a "final" response when someone enters your home and you are there.

I even suggest less then lethal options per ammo [[less lethal bird shot vs. XX shot), an option I detail that is available in shot guns.

I have no interest in chasing down anyone or standing "your" backyard or anyone elses unless there's a BBQ in which I am invited [[smile). Like many Detroiters [[who remain) I'm just a tax paying citizen, not seeking trouble -- and not desiring to become a statistic: raped and or murdered in my own home.

Originally Posted by ct_alum

Zacha341: Who was talking about gun owners? I was talking about everyone [[gun owner or not) who was reveling in the cold-blooded murder of a human being. You are the one equating gun ownership with right wing nut jobs, not me. BTW, chasing someone down the street and shooting them after they had surrendered is NOT "self protection". - The latest version is that the victim had not even entered the home, he was simply standing in the yard. Tresspassimg is not a capital crime in Michigan; if you think that it should be, come over to my house and stand in my yard..............................

**softailrider** · January-02-10, 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by stasu1213

I am glad that he had shot the intruder. One less fool to worry about. The intruder should had kept his A@# running but wanted to sniff his own piss. I say shoot any intruder who comes into your home then forgive him later

Right, key words are " comes into your home " Anybody who breaks into my house is in for a big shock if I'm home. However an argument with somebody in your backyard is a different story.

**Zacha341** · January-02-10, 09:39 PM

Interesting points. How many home owners or renters have found some robber or rapist coming onto their property: attempting to pry open door or window and the resident showed them their gun [[legal or otherwise) from "within" their property? And the would be "perpetrator" ran off [[for easier prey)...

The resident then calls the police, yet once they arrive I'm certain the non-legal gun owner did not "volunteer" that they had an unregistered fire arm!! I am certain these "show-a-gun" episodes [[especially when the resident has an non-registered gun) often go un-reported....

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

I will play along with this. Let's say they do exactly what you posted. Lawyers are known to say or do anything to win their case so okay they come up with a cover story to convict Mr. Croff. No one put Mr. Croff in his situation but Mr. Croff. Once Mr. Croff made his presence known to the two men and they ran off that should have been the end of it. He didn't need to chase after them. Mr. Croff took it too far and now he will pay the price. Like I stated earlier, everyone loses on this one.

**Zacha341** · January-02-10, 09:43 PM

I think he [[the shooter) is going upstate for a while... the central issue is the perp was not in his home or at least over the threshold or window seal, at which point the law would be on his [[the residents) side.

Originally Posted by ejames01

This man's real mistake is talking to the police BEFORE talking to a lawyer. With a proper statement, he might not have been charged with anything.

**Zacha341** · January-02-10, 09:59 PM

Yeah, when all is said and done, the "occupation" of intruding into peoples property has got to take alot of nerve, especially with some many ready and not willing to be a victim. Example: The latest rash of intruders and robbers meeting the "business end" of a gun pointed at them by women!

Originally Posted by softailrider

Right, key words are " comes into your home " Anybody who breaks into my house is in for a big shock if I'm home. However an argument with somebody in your backyard is a different story.

**R8RBOB** · January-02-10, 10:40 PM

With all the comments on this subject, I'm surprised that no one flipped the situation around. What if after surprising the would-be burglars they run off [[which they did) and Mr. Croff chased after them [[which he did) but instead of Mr. Croff shooting and killing Herbert Silas, Silas and his accomplice ambush Croff and murdered him. What would be the comments on this board? I can imagine comments like "he didn't know if they had weapons or not" or "why didn't he call the police after they ran off" or "he's dead because he was dumb to chase them when they didn't steal anything."

Luckily, it didn't end up that way but Mr. Croff was reckless in his actions and if either of those two men had a gun Mr. Croff could have been one in the morgue.

**Ocean2026** · January-02-10, 11:00 PM

ejames asks if its ok to kill a guy just for taking a car radio. If they take a car radio they would also take something they found in there more valuable or do you think they would say "Nah I don't need the $459 in this wallet, I'll be happy selling this radio" If they get away with a few of those won't they if given the opportunity, break into a house containing items of greater value? or will they say " Nah I like these old car radios"

Criminals need some fear- they don't fear the police. If enough criminals are killed trying to steal a radio maybe others would learn that even the smallest crime has risks.

Not only should this guy be freed, but the DA and Media should make a big deal about freeing him and making him a hero so that more people will emulate this behavior.

**softailrider** · January-03-10, 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

ejames asks if its ok to kill a guy just for taking a car radio. If they take a car radio they would also take something they found in there more valuable or do you think they would say "Nah I don't need the $459 in this wallet, I'll be happy selling this radio" If they get away with a few of those won't they if given the opportunity, break into a house containing items of greater value? or will they say " Nah I like these old car radios"

Criminals need some fear- they don't fear the police. If enough criminals are killed trying to steal a radio maybe others would learn that even the smallest crime has risks.

Not only should this guy be freed, but the DA and Media should make a big deal about freeing him and making him a hero so that more people will emulate this behavior.

I believe Wayne County is going to go after him in the opposite way, they're not pro gun. Making him a hero is not what they're going to do.

**gnome** · January-03-10, 06:00 AM

As I said in an earlier post, we don't have all the facts yet, it is too soon to judge. For example, did Mr. Croft's backyard have a fence? If so, what kind and how high was it? A two foot tall decorative chain is not the same as a 6 ft stockade fence?

There is a difference.

Was Mr. Deadguy the same fellow who robbed him earlier? Maybe. Did Mr. Deadguy somehow intimidate Mr. Croft on other occasions? Like driving by slowly or standing in front of Mr. Croft's home? Did Mr. Deadguy present himself as a menacing figure in the neighborhood, or was that evening the first time they had met?

Big difference.

Did the police interrogation include high fives and back slaps of congratulations? Thanks and hugs and laughing and celebratory "pepsi colas for everyone as soon as you tell us how you capped his ass? " Did the cops say. "Oh my god Harry get in here, you gotta hear this, this motherfucker is a badass motherfucker, he done took out DogFaceBoy for stepping on his lawn. Oh my god, I haven't laughed so hard ever, thank you thank you, we've been after that slippery motherfucker for years..."

Did the cops embrace Mr. Croft as a brother, a comrade, a laudable citizen as a ruse to get him to make damning statements? Did Mr. Croft, who was a cop-wannabe, had a low wage job as a Security Guard, fall for their act and enhanced his Dirty Harry demeanor to fit in with his new friends? Maybe.

Huge Difference.

**ejames01** · January-03-10, 08:56 AM

That IS NOT the question that I asked.

The question posed to Ms. G [[and now you) is "Are you willing to commit murder to keep someone from stealing your car radio?" Are you willing to serve a few years in prison to prove that point?

Originally Posted by Ocean2026

ejames asks if its ok to kill a guy just for taking a car radio. If they take a car radio they would also take something they found in there more valuable or do you think they would say "Nah I don't need the $459 in this wallet, I'll be happy selling this radio" If they get away with a few of those won't they if given the opportunity, break into a house containing items of greater value? or will they say " Nah I like these old car radios"

Criminals need some fear- they don't fear the police. If enough criminals are killed trying to steal a radio maybe others would learn that even the smallest crime has risks.

Not only should this guy be freed, but the DA and Media should make a big deal about freeing him and making him a hero so that more people will emulate this behavior.

**ejames01** · January-03-10, 08:59 AM

That is not true. Any law abiding citizen in Wayne County can get a CPL and/or buy a gun as long as they meet the requirements.

Originally Posted by softailrider

I believe Wayne County is going to go after him in the opposite way, they're not pro gun. Making him a hero is not what they're going to do.

**ejames01** · January-03-10, 09:01 AM

Who is going to protect his children now?

Originally Posted by Ms. G

It's MY car radio and no I would not kill someone to stop them from stealing my car radio. This man's home had been invaded 3 times in a week. What if he had been killed or one of his children had been killed because he did nothing or confronted these crimminals inside his home? Would you be willing to stand in for him as a father to his children? [[I know they have lost their father anyway). How would you replace his child if lost to these crimminals? I really don't care what you think or how you live your life.

**ejames01** · January-03-10, 09:04 AM

He is referring to your comments not being serious. No one on your forum is going to break into your house.

Originally Posted by Ms. G

Don't take me seriously. Break into my house, we'll see how serious I am.

ziggyselbin · January-03-10, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by ejames01

Are you willing to commit murder to keep someone from stealing your car radio?

Maybe the question should be is someone willing to die to take anothers car radio?....

**ejames01** · January-03-10, 09:09 AM

I'm pretty sure no one on DetroitYES! does anything like that.

Originally Posted by ziggyselbin

Maybe the question should be is someone willing to die to take anothers car radio?....

ziggyselbin · January-03-10, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by ejames01

I'm pretty sure no one on DetroitYES! does anything like that.

I am certain you don't!!! My take and I posted it days ago is that criminals risk this sort of retaliation ..... an occupational hazard in a manner of speaking_ which is why I turned yiur question around.

As for your question I would personally answer no. However life is not lived in a vacuum. Where I live car break ins and house burglaries and break-ins are news; we read it in the paper. If I were living where the crime was intractable I may very well think differently.

**R8RBOB** · January-03-10, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by ejames01

He is referring to your comments not being serious. No one on your forum is going to break into your house.

I think she knows that but she want to huff and puff, however she does make a point.

If the guy Silas had successfully broken into Croff's house then got shot while confronting Croff then all of this would be a moot point because the law would say that because he had broken in while the homeowner was at home then it would an home invasion therefore the homeowner have every right to use deadly force. We would be on this very forum saying that Mr. Croff was in his rights to shoot Silas.

But you can't go off chasing down presumed suspects who are in your backyard and gunning them down in the street and say that you shot them because the guy taunted you and that your house was broken into on three separate occasions. So, Ms. G for the record killing someone apply when your life is in jeopardy not when someone steals your hairbrush.

**janesback** · January-03-10, 10:01 AM

anyone going to attend the funeral, or better, anyone sending flowers? Jane

**R8RBOB** · January-03-10, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by janesback

anyone going to attend the funeral, or better, anyone sending flowers? Jane

What funeral? According to this story, http://www.freep.com/article/2010010...oting-charges- the body is still in the morgue, no family to claim the body.

Perhaps, Mr. Croff's lawyer could say that he was doing Silas a favor by performing "youth-in-asia" on him. [[That's euthanasia)

**George Cassidy** · January-03-10, 10:56 AM

Does this Croff guy look at all like Charles Bronson?

**Zacha341** · January-03-10, 03:41 PM

Hmn, no family to come forward even for the body... perhaps no family to speak up in court either... there was a news show on just last week about bodies stacking up at the morgue [[unclaimed)... the article also talked about the Marybell [[sp?) elder white lady [[I cannot recall her last name) that lived on a nearly abandoned horrid street [[was reported on the news and got alot of attention) who recently died and her body was unclaimed too until recently....

Does anyone recall what channel the "morgue" story was on... I will look and perhaps post a new thread about it.......

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

What funeral? According to this story, http://www.freep.com/article/2010010...oting-charges- the body is still in the morgue, no family to claim the body.

Perhaps, Mr. Croff's lawyer could say that he was doing Silas a favor by performing "youth-in-asia" on him. [[That's euthanasia)