Vigilante, hero, or killer?

[SteadySky]

I have been following this thread for a long time. I used to post under another name, but never got around to reestablishing my profile after the switch was made [[whatever it was...). But this thread really caught my interest.

From my perspective [[which is that I live out in the burbs by Somerset, I'm educated, professional career person, and former U.S. Army veteran), it is almost inevitable. In a way, the guy almost is or may in fact be suffering from some form of PTSD [[believe me I know about it the disorder.....). Sounds like the guy lived in fear, anxiety, and anger about having his home invaded more than once. He has kids and responsibilities.

Think about the situation, it is late, he is probably anxious and more aware of this surroundings and "things that go bump in the night" than ever before. Then low and behold, two SOBs are in his yard in the early morning. Obviously up to no good and almost certainly intent on doing something like rob his home. The man's level of anger, frustration, fear, drives him to confrontation and the two thiefs run for it. He snaps - he's had enough, and off he goes chasing the thugs. You would hope that after running for a bit and burning off steam he would regain his faculties, etc. Or is it that it drives up the level of frustration and feeling of abandonment that maybe he feels? Or is it the feeling that he is on his own as the authorities won't or can't, etc., help?

Then to top it off one of the SOBs taunts him. In that kind of frame of mind and environment it takes very little to set you in motion and pull that trigger. Unfortunately I know. I can relate based on my own experience in the army. I don't know this poor guy from anybody, but I bet he developed a seige mentality of sorts.

Was it wrong to shoot this guy? Yes. Should he have chased him off his property? No. That was dangerous. Is it understandable? You bet. There is some kind of defense here. I'm no lawyer, but this environment sets up people to behave exactly like the way he did.

So what do you do with him? Give him 20 years? No, I can't see it. The guy will have this burden the rest of his life. Taking someone's life is hard and not without costs. I doubt the guy decided to just say that he was going to kill them. Bad, bad situation. But to me the final and real tragedy is to now take and destroy this man with incarceration.

[R8RBOB]

I have been following this thread for a long time. I used to post under another name, but never got around to reestablishing my profile after the switch was made [[whatever it was...). But this thread really caught my interest.

From my perspective [[which is that I live out in the burbs by Somerset, I'm educated, professional career person, and former U.S. Army veteran), it is almost inevitable. In a way, the guy almost is or may in fact be suffering from some form of PTSD [[believe me I know about it the disorder.....). Sounds like the guy lived in fear, anxiety, and anger about having his home invaded more than once. He has kids and responsibilities.

Think about the situation, it is late, he is probably anxious and more aware of this surroundings and "things that go bump in the night" than ever before. Then low and behold, two SOBs are in his yard in the early morning. Obviously up to no good and almost certainly intent on doing something like rob his home. The man's level of anger, frustration, fear, drives him to confrontation and the two thiefs run for it. He snaps - he's had enough, and off he goes chasing the thugs. You would hope that after running for a bit and burning off steam he would regain his faculties, etc. Or is it that it drives up the level of frustration and feeling of abandonment that maybe he feels? Or is it the feeling that he is on his own as the authorities won't or can't, etc., help?

Then to top it off one of the SOBs taunts him. In that kind of frame of mind and environment it takes very little to set you in motion and pull that trigger. Unfortunately I know. I can relate based on my own experience in the army. I don't know this poor guy from anybody, but I bet he developed a seige mentality of sorts.

Was it wrong to shoot this guy? Yes. Should he have chased him off his property? No. That was dangerous. Is it understandable? You bet. There is some kind of defense here. I'm no lawyer, but this environment sets up people to behave exactly like the way he did.

So what do you do with him? Give him 20 years? No, I can't see it. The guy will have this burden the rest of his life. Taking someone's life is hard and not without costs. I doubt the guy decided to just say that he was going to kill them. Bad, bad situation. But to me the final and real tragedy is to now take and destroy this man with incarceration.

I have posted an number of times on this subject and I have been critical on the actions on Mr. Croff and I agree that he should not go to jail but the law may have a different view.

That said, after reading your posting, I have to backtrack a bit. I agree that the actions that Croff made after discovering the two guys in his backyard was wrong, BUT I can understand. Being victimized over and over will hollow you out. It is like a bully taking your lunch money every day and threatening you with violence. Eventually, you will crack and a situation like what happened to Mr. Croff will occur.

Thinking about the taunting of Silas reminded me of an incident many years ago in high school. There was this guy who was always running his mouth. This guy would have been a prime candidate for the Biggest Loser. One day he was running his mouth and without thinking my foot raised off the floor and with the aid of my leg kicked him straight up the ass. I know it is not the same but in the heat of the moment, hearing smart ass talk can lead to bizarre results.

http://r8rbob.wordpress.com

[smudge pot]

One day he was running his mouth and without thinking my foot raised off the floor and with the aid of my leg kicked him straight up the ass. I know it is not the same but in the heat of the moment, hearing smart ass talk can lead to bizarre results.

What you experienced was a calm, cool, moment of clarity. Like being in a bar, this guy has his hands around your throat, you shove him back over his table, and you watch him, and all his buddies' drinks, cascade over the other side in fascinating adrenaline slow motion.

[jtf1972]

Untrained folks who have engaged an intruder often have had guns taken from them. Bad day! Best to wait until they are in your space, ready.

This idiot that I work with who is a gun nut and believes himself to be an expert on everything was on a rant about how, once you have your gun on an intruder you can call 911 so the police can get him. He didn't comprehend why I said that was the stupidest thing I have ever heard, so I told him to point his hand at me like a gun. Then I told him to dial 911. When he turned his head to the phone I simply smacked his hand away & told him if he ever is in that situation, make the intruder dial the phone and don't EVER take your eye off him unless you have already shot him dead. He left the room without saying a word, looking pissed.

[ejames01]

"He turned around and looked dumb. He had that 'mercy' look," Croff told police, according to Diaz's testimony. "I told him he was gonna die, and I shot him."

http://www.freep.com/article/2010012...-cop-testifies

[R8RBOB]

"He turned around and looked dumb. He had that 'mercy' look," Croff told police, according to Diaz's testimony. "I told him he was gonna die, and I shot him."

http://www.freep.com/article/2010012...-cop-testifies

Uh-oh, doesn't sound good. Telling a person that they were going to die is going to be perceived as wanting to murder them.


http://r8rbob.wordpress.com

[Crumbled_pavement]

Uh-oh, doesn't sound good. Telling a person that they were going to die is going to be perceived as wanting to murder them.


http://r8rbob.wordpress.com

What's the problem with that? The guy invaded Croff's home. Are we to support violating people and their property and just shrug it off as the cost of doing business? I'm losing faith in our criminal justice system because this God-fearing man is being tried for keeping law and order.

[9mile&seneca]

What this country needs is a return to responsible gunplay.

[ejames01]

It wasn't his job to keep law and order. There is nothing in our criminal justice system that allows for chasing people down and killing them.

What if someone else had of been hit while he was wildly shooting down the block?

What's the problem with that? The guy invaded Croff's home. Are we to support violating people and their property and just shrug it off as the cost of doing business? I'm losing faith in our criminal justice system because this God-fearing man is being tried for keeping law and order.

[bailey]

It wasn't his job to keep law and order. There is nothing in our criminal justice system that allows for chasing people down and killing them.

What if someone else had of been hit while he was wildly shooting down the block?

Well, obviously that would all be the perps fault too right? I mean if he hadn't invaded the home, there wouldn't be a need for the vigilante to go running through the streets firing at will.

[ejames01]

Both would be responsible. Just because you are being victimized, does not give you immunity from committing your own crimes.

Well, obviously that would all be the perps fault too right? I mean if he hadn't invaded the home, there wouldn't be a need for the vigilante to go running through the streets firing at will.

[R8RBOB]

I had to dust this bad boy off......

So what do the people think about the judge's decision to change the charge from 2nd degree murder to manslaughter?

[Hermod]

I had to dust this bad boy off......

So what do the people think about the judge's decision to change the charge from 2nd degree murder to manslaughter?

It should be changed to "illegal performance of a post-partum abortion on an obviously defective fetus."

[Meddle]

Should be First Degree since there was a clear and openly stated intent.

[jtf1972]

Should be First Degree since there was a clear and openly stated intent.

Cannot be 1st degree, because 1st degree requires premeditation. Did he go home that evening plotting to kill this man? Nope. It's the same thing as if he came home & found the mailman with his wife, then yelled "I'll kill you!." Yelling something during the course of a crime does not necessitate premeditation.

Altering the charge is likely only about manslaughter being more likely to get a conviction than 2nd degree murder. Aren't the penalties similar?

[RickBeall]

I would say that under the extenuating circumstances that there is inadequate police protection in Detroit, and the stress that causes, that a lighter sentence sounds good to me.

[Meddle]

Did he go home that evening plotting to kill this man? Nope.

And if he'd have shot him right there on the property at the side door, I'd agree.

Chasing him to another block, then confronting him after the victim's hands were up in surrender, stating what he did, then executing the victim in cold blood is First Degree.

[Detroitej72]

And if he'd have shot him right there on the property at the side door, I'd agree.

Chasing him to another block, then confronting him after the victim's hands were up in surrender, stating what he did, then executing the victim in cold blood is First Degree.

Many here who are quick to point out their Second Amendment right to self-defense might disagree with you on this one, Big Fella!

Now they will label you, gasp!, " a liberal!"

[R8RBOB]

And if he'd have shot him right there on the property at the side door, I'd agree.

Chasing him to another block, then confronting him after the victim's hands were up in surrender, stating what he did, then executing the victim in cold blood is First Degree.

I have to agree. Wayne County was suppose to charge him with premeditated murder, first degree because he had a chance to spare the man's life. When you tell someone that they are going to die, that's premeditated thought and if that person dies by your hand then it is premeditated murder.

Kym Worthy didn't want murder 1 because Croff had a lot of people who could sympathize with his frustration so they settle for 2nd murder. The judge going a step further decided to lower the charge because the judge in his POV believes that Mr. Croff should not spend the rest of his life behind bars for killing scum.

The judge in making the change in charges disturbs me because lawyers defending murders will request the same courtesy stating that their client didn't intend to murder the guy that they were robbing.

[Detroit Stylin]

I have to agree. Wayne County was suppose to charge him with premeditated murder, first degree because he had a chance to spare the man's life. When you tell someone that they are going to die, that's premeditated thought and if that person dies by your hand then it is premeditated murder.

Kym Worthy didn't want murder 1 because Croff had a lot of people who could sympathize with his frustration so they settle for 2nd murder. The judge going a step further decided to lower the charge because the judge in his POV believes that Mr. Croff should not spend the rest of his life behind bars for killing scum.

The judge in making the change in charges disturbs me because lawyers defending murders will request the same courtesy stating that their client didn't intend to murder the guy that they were robbing.

This will set a bad precedent....

[Detroitej72]

Kym Worthy didn't want murder 1 because Croff had a lot of people who could sympathize with his frustration so they settle for 2nd murder. The judge going a step further decided to lower the charge because the judge in his POV believes that Mr. Croff should not spend the rest of his life behind bars for killing scum..

Maybe, if the thugs get wind that an owner will be given a break, they will rethink their life, and refrain from a criminal way of life.

The judge in making the change in charges disturbs me because lawyers defending murders will request the same courtesy stating that their client didn't intend to murder the guy that they were robbing.

Doubtful. Most judge's consider the criminal's past behavior, and rule accordingly.

[gnome]

I think the way is works round these parts is that the jury is asked to rule on the charges as they are presented. They are not allowed to deviate from those charges.

For example, Ravine is charged with wreckless use of a keyboard; the jury has to either convict or not. They can't find him not-guilty on wrecklessness, but guilty on blowhardology unless he had been charged as being a blowhard.

Maybe TheRock can chime in.

With that in mind, maye the Judge downgraded to charges because the judge believed the jury wouldn't convict on 2nd degree. Maybe the judge thought half a loaf would be better than none.

Oh yeah, I don't think Mr. Croff is a threat to his neighbors. What good would jail do?

[daddeeo]

I believe the jurors will disregard the facts and let this guy off.
Much like the OJ jury, this will be done to send a message
People are feeling powerless against crime and this is one way to
tell criminals they've had enough.
It might not make sense to some people but I think this is what will happen.

[Fury13]

I believe the jurors will disregard the facts and let this guy off.
People are feeling powerless against crime and this is one way to
tell criminals they've had enough.
It might not make sense to some people but I think this is what will happen.

Let's hope so.

[bailey]

Let's hope so.

it appears we all agree...nothing this guy was doing was self defense, it was vigilante justice.

Are we letting the guy off that shot the grandmother when he missed the perp he was chasing down the block as well?