Why I left

[Buy American]

Jt1, you have a major problem with me don't you. What is it? You don't like me or what I say?

Maybe you don't have the kind of job security that the City of Detroit offered it's employees during the time I was there...maybe you don't have any job security at all...or maybe you don't have a job and just like to feel "superior" by spouting out all your facts and figures that are meaningless to me. How long did it take you to google that information? Do you even know what you're talking about? I don't think so.

I, and many of us, were forced to live in the City of Detroit while employed there. I literally signed a contract to remain in Detroit. But the City of Detroit didn't live up to their end of the contract you see. I agreed to stay as long as it provided me the services it promissed; to provide me and my family a safe and clean place to live; to provide me with basic fire and police protection. The City stopped doing that for me, yet I was FORCED to stay. Yes, I could have got another job, but when I was working, if you have 15 or 20 years in a job, you didn't go out looking for something else when you only had 10 or 15 more years to work. What some of the youth [[perhaps this applies to you) today doesn't have are work ethics or any idea of staying at one place in the hopes of retiring some day.

If you think I meant that ALL citizens in Detroit were wild animals, you must have a screw loose. The animals I'm talking about are the thugs, drug dealers, shooters, sex offenders, rapists, thieves...need I say more? I'm sure you have met some of them as well. I am also sure that there are many wonderful people in Detroit who wish, like I do, that Detroit was a better place to live in.

I am not taking anything from the City of Detroit that doesn't belong to me; thug KK did a good job on that, didn't he? The current employees are paying into the retirement system for their own futures. Mine and others have paid their dues. I have never said that well meaning citizens are beneath me.

You wish to take what I say out of context, have at it. You resent what I say, how I say it, what I did, what I do...have at it all you want.

Detroit is my hometown. I loved it before the animals [[and that means what I said above as well as the corrupt politicians who raped and pillaged the taxpayers) took over, I don't like what it's become. You can put that in your pipe and smoke it!

Incidentally, in your post #246 on another thread, you said "I want to see the city improve and the only way to help is with my vote, dollars and volunteering".

How long have you been a voter in Detroit, because that certainly hasn't made a difference has it? ....and, thanks for the dollars towards my pension since you think that's where I'm getting it.

[jt1]

Fro clarity for everyone else I took down my posts because I didn't want the thread to devolve anymore than it has

[QUOTE]

Jt1, you have a major problem with me don't you. What is it? You don't like me or what I say?

I think that you display an appalling attitude towards the city and it's residents. I don't know you personally so I can't say I dislike you. I think your preaching about supporting the Big 3 and pro-union non-sesne is ridiculous. I think your inability to acknowledge the harm the unions have done to this region is ridiculous.

I don't care for the fact that you need to inject negativity in damn near every positive thread. I don't care for the fact that whenever someone states they enjoy living in the city you immediately try to dismiss it as someone wearing rose colored glasses, naive or any other bs you choose to use to imply that your experiences must be the same as everyone else.

Personally, I think your attitude is rpresentative of much of your generation and a large reason that this region now continues to suffer. There is no way that the divide between classes, colors, communities, etc can be aided by people that think they way you do.

Maybe you don't have the kind of job security that the City of Detroit offered it's employees during the time I was there...

Job security has nothing to do with my issues with your statements.

maybe you don't have any job security at all...or maybe you don't have a job and just like to feel "superior" by spouting out all your facts and figures that are meaningless to me. How long did it take you to google that information? Do you even know what you're talking about? I don't think so.

I am gainfully employed and my retirment savings has me on track to retire by 50. Since I don't get a pension I have made the correct financial and professional decisions to put me in the situation I am in.

I appreciate that you admit you aren't a fan of 'facts and figures'. Your previous posts have made that abundantly clear.

I, and many of us, were forced to live in the City of Detroit while employed there. I literally signed a contract to remain in Detroit.

You signed a contract that required you to live in the city if you wanted to keep your job. Nobody took away your option to pursue other jobs or other careers. playing the victim card in this situation is complete bs.

But the City of Detroit didn't live up to their end of the contract you see. I agreed to stay as long as it provided me the services it promissed; to provide me and my family a safe and clean place to live; to provide me with basic fire and police protection. The City stopped doing that for me, yet I was FORCED to stay. Yes, I could have got another job, but when I was working, if you have 15 or 20 years in a job, you didn't go out looking for something else when you only had 10 or 15 more years to work.

At least you can admit it was your choice to stay. You may have done it to maintain your pension and seniority but let's be clear, you stayed becuase it was in your best interest, not because you were forced to stay. Once you come to terms with that it will be a major breakthrough.

What some of the youth [[perhaps this applies to you) today doesn't have are work ethics or any idea of staying at one place in the hopes of retiring some day.

What some of the youth [[and this applies to me) today realize is that pensions and other unsustainable retirment entitlements are not existent. I am driven to do a good job so I may continue to work my way up, not get by to keep my job and pension. Questioning work ethic based upon your premise of 'stay and get a pension' is comical.

If you think I meant that ALL citizens in Detroit were wild animals, you must have a screw loose. The animals I'm talking about are the thugs, drug dealers, shooters, sex offenders, rapists, thieves...need I say more? I'm sure you have met some of them as well. I am also sure that there are many wonderful people in Detroit who wish, like I do, that Detroit was a better place to live in.

I didn;t assume you meant it for all but your posts rarely, if ever, consider the good people. If you only speak of the criminals while ignoring all of those that do well you tend to make it clear that you have contempt for many of the citizens that you do not know.

I am not taking anything from the City of Detroit that doesn't belong to me; thug KK did a good job on that, didn't he? The current employees are paying into the retirement system for their own futures. Mine and others have paid their dues. I have never said that well meaning citizens are beneath me.

KK was a thug and theif. I'm not sure how this comes into the argument. You and others have not paid your dues. The monies that you paid in are not enough to sustain what has been committed to you. Until you clearly understand that the pension systems are not sustainable and not paid into fully for equivalent benefits it will be impossible to discuss with you.

You may have not stated that well meaning citizens are beneath you but your utter contempt for the residents is clear. Your need to questions everyone that chooses to live here [[by choice) makes your attitude clear.

You wish to take what I say out of context, have at it. You resent what I say, how I say it, what I did, what I do...have at it all you want.

I take some out of context because so much of it is general contempt for the city, residents and no mention of the good that many do [[unless you make an occasional post supproting firefighter)

Detroit is my hometown. I loved it before the animals [[and that means what I said above as well as the corrupt politicians who raped and pillaged the taxpayers) took over, I don't like what it's become. You can put that in your pipe and smoke it!

I don't smoke - unlike your generation mine will not have the luxury of medicare and medicaid since the health care system will be left for broke after your generation moves on [[Of course you will be taking much more out than you put in).

Incidentally, in your post #246 on another thread, you said "I want to see the city improve and the only way to help is with my vote, dollars and volunteering".

How long have you been a voter in Detroit, because that certainly hasn't made a difference has it? ....and, thanks for the dollars towards my pension since you think that's where I'm getting it.

I have been a voter in Detroit for a long time and while the I have not been happy with the politicans elected I am comfortable that I voted for who I determined was the best candidate. The best way to change the leadership it to get a critical mass that will vote for the best candidiates. You condemn me for doing so which is just ridiculous.

I did not state that pensions are paid for with my taxes but the city may have to contribute to the pension funds in future years as they are completely unsustainable. If you believe that the pension funds are sustainable I would like to discuss selling you the Ambassador bridge. If you want to talk about what is humorous is your belief that you paid enough into the pension system to support how much you'll get out of it.

I'll keep my eyes peeled to find a post of yours that speaks positively about anyone in the city [[with the exception of firefighters). I'm sure it will be coming any second.

[Buy American]

"Fro clarity for everyone else I took down my posts because I didn't want the thread to devolve anymore than it has"

I believe your motives for removing your negative, insulting and rambling posts is because you don't want anyone else to read them. I'll let mine speak for themselves, I'm not ashamed of anything I've posted...today or yesterday or last year....oh, and remember...

WHAT YOU DRIVE DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET, KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.

[jt1]

"Fro clarity for everyone else I took down my posts because I didn't want the thread to devolve anymore than it has"

I believe your motives for removing your negative, insulting and rambling posts is because you don't want anyone else to read them. I'll let mine speak for themselves, I'm not ashamed of anything I've posted...today or yesterday or last year....oh, and remember...

WHAT YOU DRIVE DRIVES AMERICA!
OUT OF A JOB YET, KEEP BUYING FOREIGN.

I believe that my posts addressed you very clearly. Of course you are the one that isn't a fan of 'facts and figures'.....oh, and remember

LOOK WHAT UNIONS HAVE DONE FOR MICHIGAN
AND THE BIG THREE

[MustangMan]

I think that you display an appalling attitude towards the city and it's residents. I don't know you personally so I can't say I dislike you. I think your preaching about supporting the Big 3 and pro-union non-sesne is ridiculous. I think your inability to acknowledge the harm the unions have done to this region is ridiculous.

Over the years, many of the laws, policies and public services which we now take for granted have been achieved by long, hard campaigning by trade unionists - often using union Political Funds.
Union campaigning and political lobbying has helped win:
Health and Safety at Work legislation
Legal rights to recognition
Information and Consultation
A National Minimum Wage
Working Time Regulations
Protection against Discrimination and Harassment
Better Pensions
More rights for part-time workers
More rights for parents at work.

What have unions accomplished for all workers?
Unions have made life better for all working Americans by helping to pass laws ending child labor, establishing the eight-hour day, protecting workers’ safety and health and helping create Social Security, unemployment insurance and the minimum wage, for example. Unions are continuing the fight today to improve life for all working families in America.

Are unions still important to working people today?
Workers need unions as much as ever—because most corporations focus on profit at the expense of employees. The nature of work in America is changing. Employers are trying to shed responsibilities—for providing health insurance, good pension coverage, reasonable work hours and job safety protections, for example—while making workers' jobs and incomes less secure through downsizing, part-timing and contracting out. Working people need a voice at work to keep employers from making our jobs look like they did 100 years ago, with sweatshop conditions, unlivable wages and 70-hour workweeks.

Without the Auto industry here in Detroit and all the other industries built up around Auto's, Detroit would not have become the industrial power house that it was. These same industries [[mostly union workers) shifted from auto production to help build Tank's, Planes etc... to help win WWII, without their help the war might have been lost. You need to look up the facts about union's, and how they made all of our lives better, before you spew the anti-union crap.

[Buy American]

Over the years, many of the laws, policies and public services which we now take for granted have been achieved by long, hard campaigning by trade unionists - often using union Political Funds.
Union campaigning and political lobbying has helped win:
Health and Safety at Work legislation
Legal rights to recognition
Information and Consultation
A National Minimum Wage
Working Time Regulations
Protection against Discrimination and Harassment
Better Pensions
More rights for part-time workers
More rights for parents at work.

What have unions accomplished for all workers?
Unions have made life better for all working Americans by helping to pass laws ending child labor, establishing the eight-hour day, protecting workers’ safety and health and helping create Social Security, unemployment insurance and the minimum wage, for example. Unions are continuing the fight today to improve life for all working families in America.

Are unions still important to working people today?
Workers need unions as much as ever—because most corporations focus on profit at the expense of employees. The nature of work in America is changing. Employers are trying to shed responsibilities—for providing health insurance, good pension coverage, reasonable work hours and job safety protections, for example—while making workers' jobs and incomes less secure through downsizing, part-timing and contracting out. Working people need a voice at work to keep employers from making our jobs look like they did 100 years ago, with sweatshop conditions, unlivable wages and 70-hour workweeks.

Without the Auto industry here in Detroit and all the other industries built up around Auto's, Detroit would not have become the industrial power house that it was. These same industries [[mostly union workers) shifted from auto production to help build Tank's, Planes etc... to help win WWII, without their help the war might have been lost. You need to look up the facts about union's, and how they made all of our lives better, before you spew the anti-union crap.

MustangMan, thank you. In some respects, I think it's futile to try and explain the benefits the unions have given everyone in the workforce today, even people who don't belong to a union. Some people out there [[J"A"1) in particular can't comprehend and will continue to complain. Anyway, thanks for your posts, it's good to know there are others out there who believe the same way I do and that I'm not all wrong.

[jt1]

I agree that unions certainly were needed and still serve a purpose.
I however believe that unions have gotten as greedy and corrupt as the leadership running the companies
I believe that many union members lose sight of the fact that they work for the company, not the union.
I believe that unions hurt themselves by protecting the worst workers at the expense of the good workers

Negotiating fair wages, safe working conditions, etc are all noble and necessary.
Solidarity is fine on the surface but solidarity with no common sense that protects the worst without considering the consequences [[whether work or image) of the majority good workers is an issue

Now in practice look no further than the recent Ford negotiations.
Same work, different company and the union is pushing for more because Ford was profitable
Looking at the current situation in a vacuum with no consideration of long term structural issues is appalling
How can the UAW justify that a millwright at Company A is worth more [[because the company made money) than a millwright at Company B [[who lost money)

The union, just like the executive leadership could make a few common sense changes that would go a long way in helping their cause and support of unions.

[jt1]

MustangMan, thank you. In some respects, I think it's futile to try and explain the benefits the unions have given everyone in the workforce today, even people who don't belong to a union. Some people out there [[J"A"1) in particular can't comprehend and will continue to complain. Anyway, thanks for your posts, it's good to know there are others out there who believe the same way I do and that I'm not all wrong.

See post below: J"A"1. Wow, that is pretty clever. You old entitlement types are very funny.

[southsider]

I lived in Detroit for 7 years. I moved there with so much excitement and lived in one of the pre eminent neighborhoods in the city. I've been an urbanite my entire life and didn't believe the naysayers about how bad the city was. They were right. I was wrong. However, it was such a deeply emotional experience I still find myself drawn to the city [[through the safe filter of the internet) to keep tabs. I'd like to hear from others who have been fortunate enough to escape, but feel compelled to look back. Detroit is like a train wreck [[that you were on). You just can't look away.

[Fury13]

Hoooo boy, southsider... prepare for major fallout... the truth be damned.

[English]

Southsider, can you say more about your experiences in the city? Where did you live and work? What drew you to Detroit in the first place? What was the final straw that led you to leave?

[jjw]

I am also very much an urbanite and left Detroit. You only live once. And, I didn't want to spend the rest of my life hoping Detroit would improve. I still do wish Detroit could make some sort of significant ground.

[rustic2]

I share your sentiments, southsider. I left nearly 18 years ago, but Detroit still fascinates.

I cried for leaving the city, but now I'm apprehensive when I have to go back. I work downtown one day a week, taking the SMART bus back out to my near west-side suburb.

Grew up in south Rosedale, spent college and young adult years in North Cass Corridor. Robbed at gunpoint twice, attacked on a DSO bus once, and still I loved Detroit.

[[Classic Detroit story: Robbed outside the Polish Yacht Club while on a date. Three young men and a revolver vs. me and her. Went home, called the precinct. Call 911, they said. Called 911. Is the crime in progress? No? Then call the precinct.)

Parents moved us there in 1973, wanting to make a commitment to the city. Dad sold the beautifully restored house 30 years later for about $195K. I shudder to think of what it'd be worth now,

Truthfully, I'd leave SE Michigan behind completely if I could. Michigan is cursed and Detroit is dragging down the region [[and, yes, I know there are good people there and it's worth saving, etc., etc., but we'ver been working on this revitalization thing for 35 years without many successes). Detroit's casino economy is not sustainable, and, where I live, I am especially concerned about spillover crime, which I have seen plenty of in my job as a newspaper reporter.

To paraphrase Thomas Bernhard, one of my favorite writers: Detroit is a city that sucks you dry and keeps on sucking until you fall down dead.

But I love it anyway!

[bartock]

I lived in Detroit for 7 years. I moved there with so much excitement and lived in one of the pre eminent neighborhoods in the city. I've been an urbanite my entire life and didn't believe the naysayers about how bad the city was. They were right. I was wrong. However, it was such a deeply emotional experience I still find myself drawn to the city [[through the safe filter of the internet) to keep tabs. I'd like to hear from others who have been fortunate enough to escape, but feel compelled to look back. Detroit is like a train wreck [[that you were on). You just can't look away.

Wow...Steve Perry is on DetroitYES!

[Buy American]

[quote=jt1;107802]See post below: J"A"1. Wow, that is pretty clever. You old entitlement types are very funny.[/quote

A little levity never hurt anyone...right?

[southsider]

Hoooo boy, southsider... prepare for major fallout... the truth be damned.

One of the things that I loved about the city and forums like Detroityes while I lived there were the extremely interesting and mostly funny responses to news articles and forum threads. People who live in Detroit are like no other. The amount of hubris there is one of the common denominators to its continued downward spiral. I actually looked forward to the attack from the forumers.

[MJCMEX]

One of the things that I loved about the city and forums like Detroityes while I lived there were the extremely interesting and mostly funny responses to news articles and forum threads. People who live in Detroit are like no other. The amount of hubris there is one of the common denominators to its continued downward spiral. I actually looked forward to the attack from the forumers.

No attack here. You are more than entitled to your opinion.

I am curious where you lived before Detroit and where you ended up after.

[southsider]

Southsider, can you say more about your experiences in the city? Where did you live and work? What drew you to Detroit in the first place? What was the final straw that led you to leave?

I would rather not give details about where I live or worked. There are only two neighborhoods in the city that I even found liveable [[although I grew to like Midtown over time, but wouldn't consider it a neighborhood). I really wanted to leave for at least the last 3 or so years. When you really love urban areas you can't help but be depressed to see the overwhelming despair throughout the city. To see a city of nearly a million people find any optimism in something as simple as a neighborhood 1500 sf convenience store in the middle of 300 miles of despair tortured my soul.

[JStone]

So with all of these "Why did you leave?" and "Why did you stay?" type threads, and PQZ's post, I got thinking - Where would I go if I left?

I couldn't go move back to the suburbs again, that would be depressing for me. Plus, moving to the suburbs isn't really getting "away" from Detroit - the whole region is a mess of anger, fear, hatred, stupidity [[did I say that? more like confusion and limited thinking), and poverty.

Any suggestions? Keep in mind that I would have to probably go bankrupt and have my house foreclosed upon. I would go from having great credit my whole life [[something I worked hard for), to one of those guys who eludes bill collectors [[shame).

I could probably find a pretty well paying job so I could at least rent a house for like 7 years and then start over. That would be sweet...let's see ummm seven + thirty-....Oh wow, I'm going to feel pretty old by then. Oh well...you win some, you lose some.

My requirements -

1.) Urban city with old architecture - 20's era skyscraper's with their cornices intact preferably. [[nothing like Houston, L.A., Atlanta, Phoenix, etc.)
2.) Has to have old professional sports teams - no expansion teams, and at least 2 of the 4 major ones [[prefer American League but not a deal breaker).
3.) Historic neighborhood's that are somewhat affordable and not entirely snooty. [[I'm only half cheap)
4.) Access to ethnic food varieties and coney islands.
5.) Close enough to come back and visit Mom within 5-6 hour drive or 2 hour plan ride.
6.) Public transportation is optional.
7.) Weather I don't really care about.

8.) Oh and some place where race isn't the most influential subject discussed or considered or the underlying cancerous motive that eventually destroys seemingly everything.

So whadda-yah got?

Thanks in advance. I'll hang up and listen.

[gazhekwe]

You're kind of limiting the options by having to be within five hours of Detroit. That leaves Chicago, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Pittsburgh that have the architecture and historic neighborhoods, sports teams and unique ethnic foods. I am not that fond of Cincinnati chili compared to Detroit, though. I am not sure about Akron, never been there. Columbus, too, maybe. Race seems to be a divisive element in all those places, though. Chicago has the best transit. Pittsburgh is all hills and remarkably confusing to get around in.

[English]

Cleveland
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia [[but doesn't exactly have great race relations)
Chicago
Minneapolis

Pretty much, any city in the Midwest other than Detroit.

[English]

You're kind of limiting the options by having to be within five hours of Detroit.

I read it that way too at first, but they mentioned a 2 hour plane ride as well. In 2 hours, you can be well into the South, the Upper Great Plains states, or on the Eastern Seaboard.

[gazhekwe]

Oh, right! Not counting security time probably.

[English]

^ Very good point, especially since today marks the third time some passenger caused trouble on a flight bound for Detroit. I can't believe we're a target for terror now. No wonder everyone wants to move out.

[[NOTE: I am being REALLY facetious here. I know that guy was just being an a**hole and was probably off his meds.)

[R8RBOB]

I would go back to California. [[The Bay Area)

Moving to the suburbs is not leaving Detroit. It is going to another neighborhood.