Unbelievable that this is lost. [Old Campus Martius]

[smudge pot]

I suck, I'll chop them next time ...

[Whitehouse]

The first two pics are buildings that are still alive and kicking.

[pkbroch]

in the picadilly circus picture there is a store to the very right side of the photo called "lilleywhites"

ironic......

Familiar with the store, Family who owned it was called Lillywhite, not an uncomman British surname. They have sold sporting goods since the 1800's.

http://www.londontown.com/LondonInfo...lywhites/81d9/

Many small stores in london last a long time but in this ecomony some who have been in business for many years might fail. But then again London is very dense like NYC.

[GOAT]

If I can sum up this thread quickly. Detroit used to look like this...Detroit used to have people that didn't look like me....Detroit has people that look like me and you too....detroit could rise back if we had mass transit...Detroit shouldn't level buildings...Picadilly Circus is great.

What is missing is that the Detroit of TODAY is filled with people of zero education that are just surviving. These same people are terrorized [[where is the gov't to help these victims of terrorism??) by scumbags who prey on everyone and don't care about anything but themselves; brought up by people who don't care about anyone but themselves. These same people are not helped by the indifference of the police who have no community support whatsoever; whohave been victimized time and again by the very representatives they elected [[when they actually voted) into office.

Does that help?

[GLHA-Contractor]

It is amazing how a wonderful topic like an architectural observation can get turned into something racial to attack people in short order. That is simply pathetic. Detroit has become what it is because not enough people care. Those who do care need to be commended. Those who don't shame on you. Your opinions have little value because your ignorance negates it. You know who you are.

Detroit has some absolutely wonderful old buildings. It's so easy to say everything needs to be replaced and new. Who do you think is going to pay for it when so much that has been there for the last 100 plus years isn't taken care of anymore? It didn't stay around for all those years because of neglect. It's been around because someone cared about it. Now that so much is declining, its easy to say things out of ignorance and try to make it sound intelligent. It doesn't change things.

A building only declines from neglect and abuse. Both of which fall under someones responsibility. When you add blame and ignorance to neglect and abuse, you have a city that cannot move forward until it addresses those issues.

The first step to addressing the ignorance issue is to tear up the race card and become color blind. Just because someone does or doesn't look like you or is or isn't the same color as you, or just because someone does or doesn't act like a human being, doesn't mean they are not a human being. It simply means if you condemn another to make yourrself look better you are indeed the ignorant one. You must choose to be the better person, by trying to help the lesser person or situation.

When was the last time you helped someone anyway, even if the person you helped didn't appreciate it? When was the last time you took turns mowing a lawn or cutting down weeds and trees on a vacant lot near you or an abandoned house near you? It's easy to complain but it takes special people to get involved because they care. It takes even more special people to hold your leaders accountable, attend your city meetings and make lots of noise when they do the wrong thing, instead og just complain about it.

The only thing that will make Detroit a better place is each and every one of you that live there deciding you are going to be part of the solution instead of just complaining about the problems and then throwing the race card around to remove all doubt about your stupidity over the next person. It's time to start caring or at least shut up and get out of the way of those who do care.

Sitting back now and watching who falls into what catagory based on how they respond to this.

[smudge pot]

Does that help?

It really does help. But I don't get the mass-transit angle. When I had nothing better to do, I'd get stoned and ride the NYC subways, people-watch, but I had nowhere to go, and nothing to do. It was like the little train at the Detroit Zoo, fun, but that was all there was to it. Connect the dots for me, what exactly would mass transit do for Detroit? I'm not hostile, just curious.

[Whitehouse]

It really does help. But I don't get the mass-transit angle. When I had nothing better to do, I'd get stoned and ride the NYC subways, people-watch, but I had nowhere to go, and nothing to do. It was like the little train at the Detroit Zoo, fun, but that was all there was to it. Connect the dots for me, what exactly would mass transit do for Detroit? I'm not hostile, just curious.

The answer is in other cities that do have a mass transit system, particular streetcars. New York is not a good example. That city did have a streetcar system and here and there there are still some relics in the streets or buildings to be seen. There is a group that wants to bring back the streetcars but I think that's dead in the water with funding problems. New York has a magnetic feel. It's not that surprising that there was a film called "Home alone in New York". A movie called "Home alone in Detroit" would be a horror movie....

I live in the Netherlands. Let's take Amsterdam, The Hague and Rotterdam. The first two cities can be compared with each other. Rotterdam is a bit different. The first two cities have a lot of old architecture and an old steet plan. If the streetcars would vanish overnight those two cites would be permanently in gridlock, if that's not the case anyway now. The streetcar system is a very vital part of the infrastructure. And sure, you can also use those streetcars just for the fun of it. This is downtown Amsterdam with an Amsterdam streetcar. These consists of three wagons. There are simply no shorter commuter streetcars. To be ewxact this is Dam square, the heart of Amsterdam.

Rotterdam on the other hand has a somewhat grid like street system, all courtesy of those German architects who leveled the center of the city on May 10th 1940 at the start of WWII. The remains of the city were not rebuild after the war. Most of the burned out remains were demolished apart from some structures that were viable for restoration like city hall [[the building on the right) and the cathedral. Apart from that most of the architecture in the center is from the fifties. On top of that they also stated building a subway system.

With a new grid like street system like Detroit and other major cities this city can be compared. What did return to the streets were the streetcars. Try to find them but you won't find an abandoned building like in Detroit in downtown Rotterdam. The infrastructure is very vital to a city to keep it alive.

Currently Rotterdam Central station is demolished. This was a postwar concret mogul which was not particularly loved. Now they are bluidling a brand new station here. This is the front court of the station. It's a logistic nightmare for the builders as you can see. Bicycles, trams, cars, busses and als a new subway station under construction. That picture was taken on a quiet day. If you pan to the right you'll see the tallest office structure in the Netherlands. [[Granted, by US standards it's still a dwarf with 151 meters...)

So to come back to your question, what will mass transit do for Detroit. The answer is, it will bring life back to the city. The frustrating thing is that someone in 1963 was so shortsighted to see he was writing the death letter to downtown by eliminating the streetcars from the street.

[smudge pot]

Whitehouse, I'm not arguing with you, heck, I'm way out of my element here, but what little I know about Rotterdam is that it was absolutely creamed, absolutely pasted by Allied bombers in WW2, and I'm sure the Germans were no picnic either.

So now comes Summer 1945, the place is a wasteland, gasoline is not cheap, and never will be. So with a clean slate, sure you're going to build a transit system [[and thank God you weren't doing it under Stalin's heel, as elsewhere in Europe).

But this is Detroit, broad boulevards, plenty of parking, you can buy a used car out of the Sunday paper for $400, it's a car town. The only people riding the transit system would be who? People with no cars?

That's not going to bring life back to the city, no more than me choo-chooing around NYC on the subway on a buzzy day off "revitalized" the Big Apple.

Right now, most people in Detroit have cars, and can get to where they want to go, the real problem is that there's not much to go to, and not much to do when you get there. BTW: great thread, dude.

[Whitehouse]

Rotterdam, from scratch. Laurents Church, was rebuild.


That's cityhall, remarkable to miss that one with a bomber...

The problem you also mentioned is the abundance of the car. It's the most convenient mode of transport in the US. But you have to give people the alternative. Giving in to the car is losing the war anyway. A lot of folks here mention the lack of pedestrians in present day Detroit compared to the picture that started this thread. And the car is the main culprit in this. It brought Detroit fame and fortune but it was also almost Detroit's demise.
Some clever heads will have to get together and create some kind of Marshall plan. [[The irony. Returning the favour like that plan helped rebuild Rotterdam.)

[GOAT]

Smudge Pot, I'm not sure but someone in this thread brought it [[mass transit) up. Not sure why but as is typical in Detroit it is easier to bitch and complain about why things fell [[falling) apart rather than fight to change it.

I have yet to see mass demonstrations about the neglect of the city by past/current administrations, the residents and the useless police force who have no community support.

Once that starts then maybe Detroit could scale down and become a real city instead of the beyond 3rd world status it has become.

[Bong-Man]

That's a great pic to stare at. Did you ever notice that there is not one horse in that shot ? It was only 1917. Does anyone know at what point horses were banned in CBD ?

[smudge pot]

Smudge Pot, I'm not sure but someone in this thread brought it [[mass transit) up. Not sure why but as is typical in Detroit it is easier to bitch and complain about why things fell [[falling) apart rather than fight to change it.

Let's think outside the box. When I was a small boy, I'd listen to the grownups talk, ice cubes clinking in their cocktails. Liberals, every one of them, and they all loved blacks. Are they coming back? They'll repaint their lawn-jockeys, they'll vote for Obama, but they're not coming back.

The "racists" aren't coming back either. But at least they're not hypocrites. So, let's assume that, for the next several years, Detroit remains a black city.

But let's build on that. From this point on, there will be a steady stream of retirements in the black middle class. From the Army, Air Force, and Marines, there'll be sergeants and colonels, from the Navy and Coast Guard, there'll be chiefs and captains.

Add to this police officers, firemen, teachers, various government workers, and many others from the private sector. Think Branson, Missouri, sure it's not hip, but it pushes all the buttons of the white middle class.

Detroit could become a Branson for the retired black middle class, not just a tourist destination, but a place to retire to, a black Sunset City. Think of the guaranteed cash-flow, retirement checks every month.

And do you think these people are going to put up with any hip-hop ghetto crap? No way, they remember the struggle, they remember how it was, and no corn-rowed sh*t-head is going to mess up their peace and quiet.

So far so good, guaranteed cash-flow, a responsible, stable populace [[at least until they kicked the bucket, but there will always be more to replace them). And here's where mass transit comes in. These people may not want to drive anymore, and they would love and support public transit.

But that's not all, it would only make sense that vacant office space would become occupied by social security, and other public and private agencies supporting these people.

Is Detroit ready to make these retired people welcome? Is Detroit ready to clean up the mess that keeps everyone else away? The cash-flow is there, ready to be picked, but does Detroit have its head so perpetually up its ass that none of this will ever happen? Don't ask me.

[StudendaMira]

Campus Martius doesn't have to look like Picardilly Circus. We Detroiters and American design our cities to be free from European culture.

Even if one agreed that was a good thing, it's impossible. You're in the soup, and so is "European culture," however you want to define that. It's like declaring that your next child is going to be free of human DNA.

[R8RBOB]

So to come back to your question, what will mass transit do for Detroit. The answer is, it will bring life back to the city. The frustrating thing is that someone in 1963 was so shortsighted to see he was writing the death letter to downtown by eliminating the streetcars from the street.

Being born in Detroit, the public transportation that I knew were the shitty DOT buses that continue to be the only source of transportation in Detroit. Prior to 2000, I would care less if Detroit had other forms of transportation because as far as I was concerned if you didn't have a car well sucks to be you.

I moved to the Bay Area in 2000 [[sadly, I came back home years later ) and living in the Bay you need a car, BUT you have a choice. You can drive your car and spend hours on the freeways or you can use the mass transit setup in the Bay Area. It felt good knowing that I could park my car as one of the BART stations and take the BART to San Francisco or to any of the RAIDER games. You have CalTrans, you have buses, light-rails serving the cities of the Bay Area.

Detroit should had a mass transit system especially since a number of residents were leaving the city for the suburbs. Imagine a light-rail system connecting Detroit to Ann Arbor to the west, Pontiac to the north, Lake St. Clair to the east and downriver to the south. That might be too much but the point is that Detroit should had such a setup.

Final thought: I remember traveling and I went to Minneapolis and I liked how they had a light-rail going from MPLS-St.Paul to downtown MPLS. No muss, no fuss. I think I paid like 5 or 6 bucks for the ride. Detroit at least should had some rail system to and from the airport. I'm scratching my head on that one.

[sumas]

Thanks to all for sharing photos, facinating stuff.

[Hermod]

Downtown would be much nicer if it was filled with Doughboys about to head to the trenches in Europe!

They are all at Camp Custer in Battle Creek.

There is one doughboy in the picture walking down the street. See the campaign hat and puttees??

[Detroitnerd]

They are all at Camp Custer in Battle Creek.

There is one doughboy in the picture walking down the street. See the campaign hat and puttees??

How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm ... ?

[Hermod]

Public transit would not have saved the central business district. It might have delayed the fall, but not by much. Look at the picture. It is mostly retail and theaters. Shopping and entertainment moved closer to the people so they didn't have to go downtown to get it.

Take Rochester. In 1917, it was a very small collection of very small stores without much in the way of stock. Women in Rochester would get up early in the morning and grab a DUR Interurban to downtown to shop. They would make a day of it, hit every store, eat lunch downtown, and catch the afternoon DUR interurban back to Rochester. When Northland and Eastland opened, it marked the death knell for downtown shopping. The same thing happened to the theaters. Downtown hollowed out. What will an economic investor put downtown that will bring the people from Rochester back downtown?