Isn't that what TEACHERS are for?

**sehender1** · December-14-09, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Stosh

A cost comparison example:
Reading Recovery $3,750 12-20 weeks $3,750 Per Pupil

Who's going to be paying for this?

My understanding is that the district already has the program in place, and several "master" teachers trained to train volunteers.

There will be some costs for which we'll need to raise money, but that aren't directly related to the program itself..

**SWMAP** · December-14-09, 10:28 AM

I have really searched my heart on this and I, with an advanced degree in reading instruction for beginning readers, think I will not volunteer. For these reasons:

1. Several years ago I volunteered in a Detroit Public School as part of a corporate corps requested by Mike Duggan when he was with Wayne County. I'm a product of Catholic schools and I taught for a decade in Catholic schools in the city of Detroit. When I was in that classroom in the DPS as a volunteer I was SO frustrated. I couldn't stand it. The classroom models and expectations are planets apart. The DPS classroom had a wonderful, welcoming teacher, but she ran a classroom in which the children just "popped around," shouting out, jumping from their places, running the perimeter of the room in excitement, bothering others, banging their materials, etc. In my opinion it was distracted and tiring. The classroom was packed full of materials - also distracting. Every surface, shelf and corner was full of very nice things - but way too much stuff - again in my opinion. Privately, I was judgemental and unhappy. I can just tell you that it was a culture clash and I woudn't look forward to doing it again.

2. Today I heard more on the radio about the DPS teachers threatening to walk out. In my opinion again, they should be so ashamed. They need to do a lot of soul-searching about their role in the disaster that inspired Bobb to request thousands of voluteers to teach the children of Detroit. They should be volunteering! But instead, they have their children in private schools! I know because I taught many children of DPS employees when i was making only 413,000 annually and they were making $50,000.

Last, when I was in graduate school at WSU, I was thoroughly shocked by the quality of teachers working in the DPS. They were poorly educated, spoke poorly, were given to furs and talons, demanded good grades with very little contribution, made a big thing out the fact that only they knew how to educate Black children properly - I just got a pretty bad impression. I think those chickens have come home to roost and now they need to own up. All of the region rushing around to pull their feet from the fire in the name of helping the children will not solve any problem. Detroit and its schools, Board and teachers need to get some shame and some higher personal and corporate standards.

Anyway, I haven't made up my mind...

**jcole** · December-14-09, 10:31 AM

I taught many children of DPS employees when i was making only 413,000 annually and they were making $50,000.

I'm guessing the 4 is supposed to be a dollar sign?

**SWMAP** · December-14-09, 10:32 AM

Typing too fast: CORRECTION: I was making $13,000 annually.

**eastsidechris** · December-14-09, 11:08 AM

SWMAP:
Egads! I'm shocked to hear that there is a correlation between the quality of teachers and wanting to wear fur coats [[and talons?). There must be quite a few old ladies in Birmingham and Grosse Pointe that I hope never were teachers, if thatâ€™s the case. .

As for your experience with Detroit teachers, thank you very much for taking a bad experience with a few and assuming that the rest of us must be a bunch of overpaid ghetto degenerates.

Frankly, I thank you for deciding not to get off your high horse and help us here in Detroit. And the kids thank you, too. The last thing below grade level readers need is for some well-intentioned but completely condescending person to come into their school while treating them as some kind of pet project that they can brag about to their friends while having tea and crumpets in their "safe" neighborhood back in the â€˜burbs.

**English** · December-14-09, 11:18 AM

Assigning blame is beside the point. When someone is hemorrhaging on the ground, indictments can wait for a court of law. You STOP the bleeding, try to save the patient, and THEN take down some names.

Also, some of the posts here lump all Detroit teachers into the same undifferentiated bunch, which is besides the point. I wouldn't even say that 50% of Detroit teachers are as described. If the bad apple spoils the bunch, then why do people still respect the financial services industry? Why do people still respect attorneys?

As I've said in other threads, we know how to educate urban kids effectively. The first thing you have in any effective program seems to be an in loco parentis function. It does no good to scream about what the parents should be doing. YES, they should be doing it, but rhetoric is NOT making any difference in the situation. The second factor is the money to pay for the extra programs.

I agree that teachers around the state are likely going to face salary cuts during these difficult economic times. This weekend, a retired DPS teacher friend told me that the teachers have had to "give back" money before, during the recession of the early 1980s, and the teachers protesting now are too young to remember the last troubled time when Chrysler nearly shut down before it was saved by Lee Iacocca. I don't have any opinion on that era, because I was a schoolgirl myself, but it isn't as if this is unprecedented.

One final note: thanks to programs like Teach for America, we can no longer say that "you won't be able to find enough teachers for a district like Detroit." The recession is cutting so deep until schools and college of education, and alternative certification programs like TfA have been overwhelmed by prospective teachers who will work in a combat zone for private school pay... ESPECIALLY kids under 30 who don't have many other viable job prospects with health care. Many Millennial college graduates from good schools are living at home with Mom or working at Borders or Starbucks, and you could easily find ten or fifteen thousand of them willing to work in Detroit. Whether they've got the chops or experience to handle the realities of urban education is another matter, but I would not call Bobb's bluff.

**SWMAP** · December-14-09, 11:21 AM

I have lived all my life in Detroit. I own a home in SW Detroit. I speak Spanish. I taught for a decade in SW Detroit and now I work downtown. During summers, I worked for the Detroit Board of Education. I help all the kids on my street with their homework.I shop at Honeybee. I am a Detroiter thru and thru. So, you are pretty wrong that I am snobbish - and that my perspective is skewed by snobbery. What I have is experience and expertise and an informed opinion.

andybsg · December-14-09, 11:25 AM

The first thing you have in any effective program seems to be an in loco parentis function.

Exactly. Discipline and control in the schools. Without that there is no going forward.

**Johnlodge** · December-14-09, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

I have lived all my life in Detroit. I own a home in SW Detroit. I speak Spanish. I taught for a decade in SW Detroit and now I work downtown. During summers, I worked for the Detroit Board of Education. I help all the kids on my street with their homework.I shop at Honeybee. I am a Detroiter thru and thru. So, you are pretty wrong that I am snobbish - and that my perspective is skewed by snobbery. What I have is experience and expertise and an informed opinion.

But you criticized something in the city, therefore you must be a wealthy white suburbanite living in Birmingham or Grosse Pointe. Surely eastsidechris's assumptions and preconceived notions trump your real world experience.

bartock · December-14-09, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by eastsidechris

SWMAP:

Frankly, I thank you for deciding not to get off your high horse and help us here in Detroit. And the kids thank you, too. The last thing below grade level readers need is for some well-intentioned but completely condescending person to come into their school while treating them as some kind of pet project that they can brag about to their friends while having tea and crumpets in their "safe" neighborhood back in the â€˜burbs.

At this point I think you should welcome their help, too.

**English** · December-14-09, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

I have lived all my life in Detroit. I own a home in SW Detroit. I speak Spanish. I taught for a decade in SW Detroit and now I work downtown. During summers, I worked for the Detroit Board of Education. I help all the kids on my street with their homework.I shop at Honeybee. I am a Detroiter thru and thru. So, you are pretty wrong that I am snobbish - and that my perspective is skewed by snobbery. What I have is experience and expertise and an informed opinion.

It sounds as if you are a good citizen of the city of Detroit, SWMAP. Kudos to you.

Your expertise, experience, and informed opinion could be put to great use in a program like this. DPS would love to have you. I worry a bit about your perceptions about Detroit teachers, because not even a plurality of DPS staff wear fur coats or have "talons". I actually laughed when I read that, because I've taught in the WSU college of education. My students there were all regular-looking people. As a student, I only remember one of my principals wearing a fur coat, and most of my DPS teachers barely wore nail polish. And as a teacher... well, many forumers have met me. [[Can't stop laughing!) I don't remember many cluttered classrooms either, especially not in schools with pest problems. Because of that, many of us were too squeamish to hoard things all over the place.

I'm choosing not to be offended, and choosing not to get sidetracked. I've done some soul searching. For too long, Metro Detroit has been a place where we've all taken umbrage at the slightest thing. We need all hands on deck in this community.

**eastsidechris** · December-14-09, 12:37 PM

I'm sorry for the generalized assumptions, but I've grown tired of the constant blanket attacks against DPS teachers over the past couple of weeks. I certainly hope that SWMAP has had better experiences with DPS teachers since his/her experience at Wayne State. I can assure you that you can find lousy teachers in every district, but let's not assume that all [[or even most) DPS teachers are like the ones he/she describes. And yes, I am disgusted by the national test scores, too--and while some teachers are to blame for them, there are plenty of people who need to share in that blame.

PS--How long ago were you at Wayne State? The reason why I ask is that I do not know ANY colleagues who wear fur coats. And why the fur coat comment even relevant to the quality of Detroit's teachers?

**EMG** · December-14-09, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by jcole

And if they don't "get off their lazy illiterate butts and get an education"? We punish the kids for having the parents that they do through no fault of their own?

Apparently, in some areas, we don't. We punish the innocent taxpayer for social problems which are just as much no fault of THEIR own.

Originally Posted by jcole

And don't you live in Arizona anyway? How are the Detroit Public Schools picking your pocket?

True. I am just arguing the principle.

I know it's hard to believe based on my comments here, but I'm not really as much of an ogre as it may seem. I've made my share of charitable contributions. But it is one thing to be in the drivers' seat with the prerogative to personally evaluate the worthiness of causes and contribute accordingly and quite another to be forced to pay for the irresponsibility of others.

I'll lay it right on the line: in my opinion, in the perfect world, there would be no such thing as public education. And in the perfect world, that would work out just fine, because in the perfect world, all parents would be responsible, and would be paying for their own children's education - in private school. This would eliminate teachers' unions and force competitiveness in much the same way as charter schools to some extent already do. In the perfect world, parents would sacrifice in other areas to ensure that they could place priority on the cost of their children's educations, rather than constantly having their hands out to others who aren't responsible for their children. And in the perfect world, parents would instill morals and discipline in their children, so that teachers would neither be working in "combat zones" nor be responsible for assuming a duty that belongs to the parent.

**DetroitTeacher** · December-14-09, 07:18 PM

HAHA, I don't even wear make-up, have no nail polish [[and my nails all broke due to moving desks or carrying boxes of some sort around the school), and I am so allergic for fur it isn't even funny [[not to mention cruel to animals). I drive a beat up Ford [[yes, American), and would kill for my room to be cluttered by too much stuff. I work with some amazing people and with some crappy teachers. The kids will tell you who is great and who needs to go.

I would welcome ANY help into my classroom. I have a partnership with UM [[since 1998) and they provide my students with creative workshops [[writing, drama, music) and the kids LOVE it. UM comes to us. They have NEVER had a negative experience and lack any type of teaching experience but, somehow, they know how to reach my kids. Reaching kids is all about the relationship an adult has with them. The kids need to trust the adult. Kids can sense fear and frustration and will feed on it.

Please don't lump me with fur wearing, talon owning, poorly spoken teachers. I work my butt off everyday trying to make education a bit more exciting for my kids. I put in 13 hour days, spend most of my free time doing things for the kids [[grading papers, attending their events outside of school, proofreading essays for college via email, planning fun activities/school events, counseling them because they are beyond sanity because of their lives, tutoring, or finding them resources to help them reach their goals), and am spending more money than I have on supplies and resources for them.

There are teachers in DPS who love their kids, love what they do, and wouldn't trade it for the world.

PS. Those teachers who are talking of walking out are members of Steve Conn's militia and are NOT representative of even a smidge of DPS teachers. I have heard NOTHING about a walkout/strike. The majority of the teachers are in this for the kids...

**EMG** · December-14-09, 08:15 PM

DetroitTeacher: I attended Detroit Public Schools through fifth grade, which I completed in 1972, and my experience during that time matches your sentiments. I had very good teachers, including, bless her heart, my fifth grade teacher who was very honest with my mother and told her that due to class size and limited time and resources, she was unable to keep me challenged to my full potential - and actually provided the initial impetus whereby my parents ultimately put me into University Liggett School the following fall.

Don't get me wrong - I remain an inveterate anti-union person through and through [[primarily based on my experiences working in the auto industry, and my honest experience with the MAJORITY of UAW "workers" with whom I worked). I also remember some particularly lengthy DPS teacher strikes which fortunately occurred in the years shortly AFTER my transfer to ULS. [[Was I ever glad I was out of DPS the year the kids didn't get to start summer vacation until July 12 - see, I even remember the exact date if not the year!)

Nonetheless, based on my experiences I believe you when you imply the fur-wearing poorly spoken are the exception. I always had great teachers back when I was a student there, and you sound like one I would have respected and appreciated just as much had I had you. I have sympathy for you or anyone who has to work [[or study) in DPS these days. Simply to have the determination and courage to even stay in such an environment requires dedication and devotion above and beyond the call of duty. I believe the biggest problem is a decline in parenting standards between my generation and the current generation. Too many of the current parents were unfortunately raised on Dr. Spock and self esteem instead of guidance and discipline, and the resultant lack of personal responsibility on their parts is simply being passed on to the current students. The blame for this lies not with the teachers, but with the parents. Unfortunately, barring a miraculous turnaround, with each successive generation it may only continue to get worse.

**DetroitTeacher** · December-14-09, 08:35 PM

OK, here is the latest. I got home at 6pm [[I teach nightschool, too) and have JUST finished doing stuff for the kids. I am not done but my eyes are screaming at me to stop. I am taking 45 kids [[gen ed, special ed and autistic) to UM, Ann Arbor, tomorrow for a special performance of their creative works [[see the collaboration with UM from my post above). I STILL have to correct papers, get ready for Parent/Teacher conferences on Wednesday [[I'm almost there), and add grades to the gradebook. I am sure I still have more stuff to be done but I can't remember what...I've been up since 4:30am because I was also doing work during the wee hours of the morn. Would anyone care to assist? If so, I am always looking for volunteers...Did I mention that I have done ZERO Christmas shopping because I haven't had time??

**Brainiac** · December-14-09, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by EMG

The blame for this lies not with the teachers, but with the parents.

Is it the teachers - or the parents?

I argue NEITHER, it is a fundamentally flawed system.

Public schools have some advantages. But let's not overlook the disadvantages. They take children away from home for an enormous amount of time. Individualized attention is minimized and impersonal attention is maximized. It creates a conflict in authority between the school and the parent. Moral teaching is not allowed at school, and thus, often never taught. Students play games to get away with behavior unacceptable to adults. Kids look to other kids on how to behave - often making extremely poor decisions, such as involvement in drugs, violence, sex, materialism, crime. The school systems have elaborate security to deal with the scary potential of mass violence - like the kids are in jail.

Honestly with test scores as low as they are, DPS is doing worse than if it simply collapsed and left the kids on the street!

I would do everything in my power not to send my kids into that dreadful system, including quiting my job and homeschooling.

**1KielsonDrive** · December-14-09, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by gumby

There a plenty of communities that have volunteer fire fighters, have you heard of community watch [[that is volunteer as well).

I am not saying we shouldn't pay these professionals, I am pointing out that volunteers do exist in those fields.

That said I see where EMG is coming from but I also agree that we still need to address the problem instead of just saying well they need to close their legs. If only reality was so cut and dry. I work for the Department of Human Services and as someone who works with impoverished people everyday of the week [[I am at home sick today before anyone asks why I am on the internet during work hours) and I am constantly sickened by the way we enable some people to not take responsibility for themselves. They get mad at me because their power got shut off before we could help them pay their shut off, if I only had a dollar for everytime I heard that. But the reality of the situation is the ungrateful people are only a minority of the population we serve out of my caseload of over 600 [[about 200 more than it should be) only about 10 percent are like that.

We have a group of kids who we should not give up on here we either pay for it now or later. We could house them in jail or pay their welfare benefits or we can teach them skills they can use to better themselves be that by people who are paid or volunteers.

You get what you pay for. I know some volunteer firefighters - in my family. They stopped volunteering because the pay and politics were too bad. It might be fun for a minute but in the long run, it sucks. And, why risk your life for no pay? Volunteerism is a very good thing - as a stop gap, fill in, or side activity. Otherwise, people should be paid well for the work they do. I volunteer in numerous situations because I've made most of my money in my life, I'm semi-retired [[not for long), and I like to give back. As long as it's fun, I'm appreciated and treated properly, I'll continue. Volunteering is certainly not right in every situation.

**English** · December-14-09, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitTeacher

OK, here is the latest. I got home at 6pm [[I teach nightschool, too) and have JUST finished doing stuff for the kids. I am not done but my eyes are screaming at me to stop. I am taking 45 kids [[gen ed, special ed and autistic) to UM, Ann Arbor, tomorrow for a special performance of their creative works [[see the collaboration with UM from my post above). I STILL have to correct papers, get ready for Parent/Teacher conferences on Wednesday [[I'm almost there), and add grades to the gradebook. I am sure I still have more stuff to be done but I can't remember what...I've been up since 4:30am because I was also doing work during the wee hours of the morn. Would anyone care to assist? If so, I am always looking for volunteers...Did I mention that I have done ZERO Christmas shopping because I haven't had time??

DetroitTeacher, if you get this message, please let me know when you'll be in Ann Arbor. Is there a link to the performance? I would LOVE to meet you and tip my hat in person.

The post you've just written gave me a pang of nostalgia. I can relate to just about everything you've said. Because I was a masochist, for the 6 1/2 years I taught in Detroit, I planned a major holiday program involving the ENTIRE school every single December except for one from 1999 through 2004. I keep telling my architect roommate that when I taught in DPS, I never, ever Christmas shopped until Christmas Eve, and even then it was gift certificates. Not only is December nearly the end of the semester, and you have to ensure the students are ready for finals [[high school) or end of cardmarking [[K-8), you also have constant interruptions because of holiday programs, and often you're planning holiday programs yourself. The PA goes off several times an hour, and is always LOUD, until you think you're going crazy. Kids and teens get more and more challenging to manage the closer it gets to the holiday and vacation.

The level of exhaustion cannot be described. It can only be experienced. Friends in other professions think you're living it up because you get a week off for Christmas and New Year's when you are exhausted and likely have a cold or the flu because the second you have no school, your body just crashes and burns. By 2002, I remember getting to Christmas break and wishing it was Winter break instead... because Winter break has no HOLIDAYS, which means no family obligations. I didn't have to run to do shopping in the morning, cook all afternoon, and get ready for our family's Christmas Eve annual celebration, wouldn't have to do the Christmas thing, and wouldn't have to then spend most of the week taking down decorations, checking ~250 papers and projects [[usually more), and writing final exams... usually while running a temperature of 103.

And then, DPS always opened up the DAY after New Year's until recently. Back to the grind. Yes, many dedicated teachers love it, but the school year is quite a marathon.

Whew. I'm exhausted just typing about it... yes, please let me know where you'll be and when, DT.

**Mama Jackson** · December-14-09, 11:32 PM

Well, seems the call is being answered. There have been about 900 people who volunteered so far. Thank goodness!

http://www.freep.com/article/2009121...001/1001/rss01

**jcole** · December-14-09, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by EMG

Apparently, in some areas, we don't. We punish the innocent taxpayer for social problems which are just as much no fault of THEIR own.

True. I am just arguing the principle.

I know it's hard to believe based on my comments here, but I'm not really as much of an ogre as it may seem. I've made my share of charitable contributions. But it is one thing to be in the drivers' seat with the prerogative to personally evaluate the worthiness of causes and contribute accordingly and quite another to be forced to pay for the irresponsibility of others.

I'll lay it right on the line: in my opinion, in the perfect world, there would be no such thing as public education. And in the perfect world, that would work out just fine, because in the perfect world, all parents would be responsible, and would be paying for their own children's education - in private school. This would eliminate teachers' unions and force competitiveness in much the same way as charter schools to some extent already do. In the perfect world, parents would sacrifice in other areas to ensure that they could place priority on the cost of their children's educations, rather than constantly having their hands out to others who aren't responsible for their children. And in the perfect world, parents would instill morals and discipline in their children, so that teachers would neither be working in "combat zones" nor be responsible for assuming a duty that belongs to the parent.

But there is no perfect world; just a very imperfect one populated by very imperfect people. So we need to do what we can to bring it closer to that elusive 'perfection' that you speak of. That would include trying to keep the U.S. from becoming one of the most illiterate countries on earth.

MichMatters · December-15-09, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by jcole

But there is no perfect world; just a very imperfect one populated by very imperfect people. So we need to do what we can to bring it closer to that elusive 'perfection' that you speak of. That would include trying to keep the U.S. from becoming one of the most illiterate countries on earth.

Of course, recognizing and adapting to reality instead of mindlessly parroting ideological talking points makes too much damned sense, so don't expect it to be taken to heart. You'd be better of trying to convince a wall to fall.

**sumas** · December-15-09, 04:12 AM

DPS was once a model school system. Times have changed. I don't blame the teachers, some are great, others not. Poverty is the biggest culprit

I am contemplating volunteering. Reading is such a joy and pleasure. Both my adult sons love to read and we often exchange books. I think I would like a little more info before committing.

When I was young my Mom read to me every night. One chapter at a time. Even when I was old enough to read for myself, we carried on the tradition. I loved the "me" time. My favorite book from that era was, "The Secret Garden".

**DetroitTeacher** · December-15-09, 05:49 AM

English: We will be at the Trotter House in A2 at about 9:30ish. I think we are in the basement area. Our bus leaves at 8:00 [[we are never on time leaving). I'd love to see you there! The more the merrier...

**DetroitTeacher** · December-15-09, 05:58 AM

For those of you on the fence about volunteering...please do it. Even at the HS level, we have so many students who are having difficulties reading. Most are reading well below grade level. Many more have unidentified learning disabilities and they struggle to keep up. Teachers are only human and we can't do it all. I know the kids are yearning to learn and would be forever grateful to anyone who comes in to help them. Seriously, I can't give the time and attention needed to each and every student, even though I try. I have too many kids to do that. I am not alone, I hear the same thing from teachers at at other schools.

If the kids could ask you themselves I am sure they would so I am advocating for them here.