Isn't that what TEACHERS are for?

**jcole** · December-13-09, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by EMG

Then they shouldn't be having kids.

Maybe, but they already have. What then?

pudsy · December-13-09, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Buy American

35 years ago I couldn't send my kids to DPS....not because of the teachers but because of the students! Too much intimidation, violence, and extortion for my liking. The teachers have to put up with this type of mentality every day.

Would any of you actually send your kids to schools with this going on? I don't think so.

There are a good many hipster doofus types that acutally CHOOSE to send their kids to detroit schools for the wonderful "diversity" that comes with an urban education.

Its sick and wrong to do that to your child but what are you going to do?

**DetroitTeacher** · December-13-09, 04:41 PM

I am a firm believer that education starts at home. I was read to and was expected to read each day. My parents made sure my homework was done and that I did "extra". I could read prior to Kindergarten. I could also count and write simple words. I also knew my name, address, phone number, and my parents' names. I have kids in 12th grade who don't know their address!! They don't know how to address an envelope. When filling out forms, they put "mom" for their parent's name.

I am all for anything that will help the kids. I just ask that folks not think that it's the teachers' fault because I can't do much without the help of parents. When a child has 30 absences and the excuse the parents give are one or more of the following [[all of which I have had as an excuse as to why a child wasn't in school): the child was needed at home to wait for a furniture delivery, they had to come with me to the doctor, it was too cold, it was raining, they wouldn't wake up, I didn't wake up, their phone got cut off and the alarm didn't go off, they had to help me move, they didn't have clean clothes, we had to go and buy shoes, and the list goes on...just HOW am I supposed to teach these kids?? I have also seen elementary aged children walking the streets during school hours.

If education and being in school isn't a priority FROM THE HOME, then how can teachers be expected to work miracles?

pudsy · December-13-09, 05:00 PM

[quote=DetroitTeacher;99806]
I am all for anything that will help the kids. I just ask that folks not think that it's the teachers' fault because I can't do much without the help of parents. When a child has 30 absences and the excuse the parents give are one or more of the following [[all of which I have had as an excuse as to why a child wasn't in school): the child was needed at home to wait for a furniture delivery, they had to come with me to the doctor, it was too cold, it was raining, they wouldn't wake up, I didn't wake up, their phone got cut off and the alarm didn't go off, they had to help me move, they didn't have clean clothes, we had to go and buy shoes, and the list goes on...just HOW and I supposed to teach these kids?? I have also seen elementary aged children walking the streets during school hours.

quote]

Call me confused but WHY do you pass them on to the next grade?

are you forced to by some bureaucratic yahoo?
wouldn't the best solution be not to pass them?

**DetroitTeacher** · December-13-09, 05:08 PM

quote]

Call me confused but WHY do you pass them on to the next grade?

are you forced to by some bureaucratic yahoo?
wouldn't the best solution be not to pass them?[/quote]

I don't pass them...I don't know why other teachers do.

**d.mcc** · December-13-09, 05:21 PM

I am ashamed that people think they can pin the blame on the teachers. The teacher cannot drive to every students house and make sure they are in attendance. Teachers spent 32-35 hours a week. Are they to be held responsible for the other 133-136 hours in the week? Education starts at home...

**Brainiac** · December-13-09, 06:23 PM

Detroit schools might be the worst, but this problem is all too common in any urban school system. There is little moral accountability, economic conditions are horrible, illegal activity is rampant, neighbors are adversaries, and those in that environment complain about how the system fails them, as they continue to do nothing about their dependence upon it.

The kids look to each other for survival, and for those for which the lightbulb comes on, they leave.

Good luck with thinking it is just lack of parenting or poor teaching... the problems are extensive and entrenched.

**econ expat** · December-13-09, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by jcole

Yeah, but what happens when the parents can't read?

1st part of 20th century, many parents were illiterate.
They sent their children to school and insisted that their children learn to read, etc.
Then the children acted as 'readers' for their parents, some even taught their parents.
Why, some parents did not even speak English, their children translated for them.

If the parents of underperforming DPS students took the same interest now, and monitored their children's progress, perhaps DPS scores would be closer to the rest of the country.

Surprised it has taken this long for the poor results to become evident.
30+ years ago we had illiterate HS students[[later grads) because the teachers or their supervisors were unwilling to give failing grades to the 'disadvantaged'.

**agirlintheD** · December-13-09, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by notimpressed

I am curious, when and where are these volunteers supposed to teach these kids to read? At the kid's home? After school? If after school, who gets the kid to his home? Maybe I am not looking in the right places but the logistics of this venture may be a stumbling block.

I also wonder what is all of sudden going to happen to make the kid want to start learning. I guess it's worth a try but I don't see it working.

I was actually wondering the same thing. Where are these volunteers volunteering? Libraries? Rec Centers? Community Centers? The saddest thing would be lack of participation.

MichMatters · December-13-09, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by econ expat

30+ years ago we had illiterate HS students[[later grads) because the teachers or their supervisors were unwilling to give failing grades to the 'disadvantaged'.

Longer than 30 years ago we had illiterate students [[later grads) because teachers were willing to pass them because they'd end up in the factories, anyway. Let's stop these not-so-subtle insinuations, ok? DPS was never a highly-quality, post-secondary focused district; not ever, so let's cut out this tribal revisionist history where everything was better in the "good, ole days" or before "they" took-over, ok? Thanks.

**econ expat** · December-13-09, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by MichMatters

Longer than 30 years ago we had illiterate students [[later grads) because teachers were willing to pass them because they'd end up in the factories, anyway. Let's stop these not-so-subtle insinuations, ok? DPS was never a highly-quality, post-secondary focused district; not ever, so let's cut out this tribal revisionist history where everything was better in the "good, ole days" or before "they" took-over, ok? Thanks.

?? No tribal revisionist agenda ior intent in the post
Times did NOT seem better in the "good old days" when I attended DPS. Teachers and counselors did not focus much on the male students 30-40 years ago, "They'll just get sent to war, anyways" I never heard that "end up in the factories, anyways", but that was probably the case also.
I wanted to go to DPS vs private school, easier to cut classes, etc. Wasn't possible to get away with, though- parents monitored my progress.

1st part of 20th century, how many districts were post secondary focused? not many in any public schools went past HS. But DPS was far superior in quality to any of the 'rural' suburban districts.That's part of the reason why so many areas were annexed into Detroit.

**sehender1** · December-13-09, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by agirlintheD

I was actually wondering the same thing. Where are these volunteers volunteering? Libraries? Rec Centers? Community Centers? The saddest thing would be lack of participation.

The plan is to have the tutoring done in classrooms. The program DPS wants to use is Reading Recovery, which works really well as a one-on-one boost for kids in a classroom environment.

Stosh · December-13-09, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by sehender1

The plan is to have the tutoring done in classrooms. The program DPS wants to use is Reading Recovery, which works really well as a one-on-one boost for kids in a classroom environment.

A cost comparison example:
Reading Recovery $3,750 12-20 weeks $3,750 Per Pupil

Who's going to be paying for this?

Buy American · December-13-09, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

A cost comparison example:
Reading Recovery $3,750 12-20 weeks $3,750 Per Pupil

Who's going to be paying for this?

All of us...after all, the Detroit Board of Education has pilfered the accounts, taken computers, books, supplies, paid for health insurance for people who don't even work for the DPS...why shouldn't we pay again and again and again...until they get it right.

**EMG** · December-13-09, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by jcole

Maybe, but they already have. What then?

Then the promiscuous dropout failures need to get off their lazy illiterate butts and get an education for themselves - AND AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE - so that they can help their own kids.

What's that you say? Too difficult? Unreasonable and inhumane to expect someone with kids to hold down a job and go to school and take kids all at the same time? Not at all. If they didn't do the job right and study the first time around when they had the chance, they've got no one but themselves to blame. They made their beds; let them lie in them. And if they spout off any crap about having been disadvantaged because their own parents didn't do THEIR jobs by them...then let them go crying to those parents for sympathy, not to me.

Look, here's the deal: Failure to keep their pants zipped doesn't give them the right to pick my pockets.

**EMG** · December-13-09, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by d.mcc

I am ashamed that people think they can pin the blame on the teachers. The teacher cannot drive to every students house and make sure they are in attendance. Teachers spent 32-35 hours a week. Are they to be held responsible for the other 133-136 hours in the week? Education starts at home...

I agree completely.

**DetroitTeacher** · December-13-09, 10:37 PM

DPS already has the Open Court reading program, why not use it? I still don't know why they thought that it would work at the HS level [[we have oodles of those books in the building but no teacher books, which are necessary since they have the script in them). The HS kids just looked at us and refused to do such "baby" work. It is really geared toward the little ones, with all of the hand clapping and snapping.

I'd like to know if they are going to have volunteers come to the HS kids. We have free tutoring but no one shows up. We can't make the kids come and we said we'd even welcome parents, if they wanted to brush up on their skills. I do, however, have tons of kids in the extended day program [[night school) for seniors who are missing one or two classes on their transcripts. Again, it's an almost free [[25 bucks) program. I do have kids who don't show up to that, even though they have signed up for it. I wonder if they expect me to pass them just because they paid their 25 clams? Probably, but it isn't happening. Like I said, we can't make the kids attend school...that is up to the kids and their parents.

**DetroitTeacher** · December-13-09, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by d.mcc

I am ashamed that people think they can pin the blame on the teachers. The teacher cannot drive to every students house and make sure they are in attendance. Teachers spent 32-35 hours a week. Are they to be held responsible for the other 133-136 hours in the week? Education starts at home...

I see my kids 5 hours a week unless they come to me for extra help. I can't work miracles in that time frame.

MichMatters · December-13-09, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by EMG

Then the promiscuous dropout failures need to get off their lazy illiterate butts and get an education for themselves - AND AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE - so that they can help their own kids.

What's that you say? Too difficult? Unreasonable and inhumane to expect someone with kids to hold down a job and go to school and take kids all at the same time? Not at all. If they didn't do the job right and study the first time around when they had the chance, they've got no one but themselves to blame. They made their beds; let them lie in them. And if they spout off any crap about having been disadvantaged because their own parents didn't do THEIR jobs by them...then let them go crying to those parents for sympathy, not to me.

Look, here's the deal: Failure to keep their pants zipped doesn't give them the right to pick my pockets.

Good god, you're a piece of work. Guess what? You're going to pay for these kids reeducation, now, or you're going to pay to jail them, later. There's your choice. Welcome to reality; deal with it, since you seem to be comfortable being so damned blunt an incapable of offering anything more than conservative talking points. You can scream and hyperbolically react all you want; you end up paying either way. THAT's the reality.

andybsg · December-13-09, 11:37 PM

As I have said before, rein in the kids on discipline and the rest will fall into place. Until that happens, all is for naught.

**jcole** · December-14-09, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by EMG

Then the promiscuous dropout failures need to get off their lazy illiterate butts and get an education for themselves - AND AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE - so that they can help their own kids.

What's that you say? Too difficult? Unreasonable and inhumane to expect someone with kids to hold down a job and go to school and take kids all at the same time? Not at all. If they didn't do the job right and study the first time around when they had the chance, they've got no one but themselves to blame. They made their beds; let them lie in them. And if they spout off any crap about having been disadvantaged because their own parents didn't do THEIR jobs by them...then let them go crying to those parents for sympathy, not to me.

Look, here's the deal: Failure to keep their pants zipped doesn't give them the right to pick my pockets.

And if they don't "get off their lazy illiterate butts and get an education"? We punish the kids for having the parents that they do through no fault of their own? We perpetuate illiteracy because you don't want to pay to stop it? That kind of thinking will keep us from being able to compete with Japan, China and any number of other countries.
Well, I guess that must be the American way, huh? Love thy neighbor as long as it doesn't inconvenience you.
And don't you live in Arizona anyway? How are the Detroit Public Schools picking your pocket?

**1KielsonDrive** · December-14-09, 01:42 AM

I'm thinking maybe we should have volunteers fighting fires, chasing criminals, driving EMS rescues, etc, etc. These are all examples of jobs our society doesn't value or want to pay for. Lay them all off and have volunteers handle their responsibilities. That should last a nano-sec.

**DetroitPlanner** · December-14-09, 08:45 AM

Starfish

As the old man walked the beach at dawn, he noticed a young man ahead of him picking up starfish and flinging them into the sea. Finally catching up with the youth, he asked him why he was doing this. The answer was that the stranded starfish would die if left until the morning sun.

"But the beach goes on for miles and miles and there are millions of starfish," countered the other. "How can your effort make any difference?"

The young man looked at the starfish in his hand and then threw it to safety in the waves. "It makes a difference to this one," he said.

Author Unknown

**gumby** · December-14-09, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by 1KielsonDrive

I'm thinking maybe we should have volunteers fighting fires, chasing criminals, driving EMS rescues, etc, etc. These are all examples of jobs our society doesn't value or want to pay for. Lay them all off and have volunteers handle their responsibilities. That should last a nano-sec.

There a plenty of communities that have volunteer fire fighters, have you heard of community watch [[that is volunteer as well).

I am not saying we shouldn't pay these professionals, I am pointing out that volunteers do exist in those fields.

That said I see where EMG is coming from but I also agree that we still need to address the problem instead of just saying well they need to close their legs. If only reality was so cut and dry. I work for the Department of Human Services and as someone who works with impoverished people everyday of the week [[I am at home sick today before anyone asks why I am on the internet during work hours) and I am constantly sickened by the way we enable some people to not take responsibility for themselves. They get mad at me because their power got shut off before we could help them pay their shut off, if I only had a dollar for everytime I heard that. But the reality of the situation is the ungrateful people are only a minority of the population we serve out of my caseload of over 600 [[about 200 more than it should be) only about 10 percent are like that.

We have a group of kids who we should not give up on here we either pay for it now or later. We could house them in jail or pay their welfare benefits or we can teach them skills they can use to better themselves be that by people who are paid or volunteers.

**Craggy** · December-14-09, 09:42 AM

Originally Posted by Stosh

A cost comparison example:
Reading Recovery $3,750 12-20 weeks $3,750 Per Pupil

Who's going to be paying for this?

We all pay for this already. Everyday, in the form of corrections, welfare, jobless benefits, uncompensated health care, insurance, crime and any other social ill you can think of.

Illiteracy is at the root of almost all of it.