Major "told you so" development

**East Detroit** · December-13-09, 11:30 AM

I wish these idiots would stop driving on the roads that I helped pay for.

Stole my precious cash with threat of incarceration, and then built roads that would be shared with subhumans.

Basic ripoff of my liberty to hoard my cash and build my own private roads for ME and MINE.

ccbatson · December-13-09, 04:48 PM

Market forces [[not "you" per say) would have built roads far superior in quality and lower in cost than having central government do it....this is an economic absolute.

**elganned** · December-13-09, 05:20 PM

But they would have only built them in the high-traffic markets, leaving most mid-level cities and towns to suffer with gravel paths.

And let's not forget the Interstate System, shall we? Initiated from the Defense Department and instituted under Eisenhower. I'm sure the "market forces" you speak of would have come up with this network on their own--given a few more dozens of decades.

History is replete with examples of how "market forces" grabbed for the quick buck in the dense markets and left the bulk of the citizenry to languish on their own. For example, the Rural Electrification Administration [[part of the New Deal which you so richly despise). I think most would agree that extending the power grid into the boonies was a good thing, and wasn't happening under "market forces".

So go live in your fantasy land of "economic absolutes"; the rest of us will stay here comfortable in the knowledge that our lives are not lived entirely at the mercy and whim of your "absolutes".

ccbatson · December-13-09, 05:22 PM

Just as these things needed to develop over time as they did in history...except, it would have occurred with higher quality, more speed, and lower cost.

**rb336** · December-16-09, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Market forces [[not "you" per say) would have built roads far superior in quality and lower in cost than having central government do it....this is an economic absolute.

it is an absolute falsehood. check recent "privately funded and built" roads with comparable government-built roads [[yes, they do exist, and yes, there are comparison studies out there, specifically in the DC/VA/MD area). The public sector road came in under budget and at a much lower cost per mile [[and have had fewer maintenance problems). the cost passed on to taxpayers/consumers was and is far less on the public road. check the maintenance on public v private bridges [[Mac v Ambassador, for example) and again, the public sector wins by a huge margin.

**elganned** · December-16-09, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Just as these things needed to develop over time as they did in history...except, it would have occurred with higher quality, more speed, and lower cost.

Two words: horse manure.

Some areas would have possibly been developed at higher quality and lower cost, but only the highest-paying ones. The rest of the nation would have languished without in the name of "insufficient return on investment" and "low market demand", etc., etc.

For a classic recent example, just look at broadband internet access. The cable companies were all about a smash-and-grab in the most lucrative markets, but had absolutely no interest whatsoever in extending service to more sparsely populated areas.

ccbatson · December-16-09, 05:20 PM

If there is no demand, then there is no need for the product or service at that time and vis versa...Another automatic beauty of free market forces. You get the best, the most efficient, and the least expensive products and services.

**rb336** · December-17-09, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

If there is no demand, then there is no need for the product or service at that time and vis versa...Another automatic beauty of free market forces. You get the best, the most efficient, and the least expensive products and services.

only as long as you are in an area that can sustain them. rural folk? nah, forget about getting them broadband access, decent roads, decent health services, reliable electrical service. not a dense enough population to be profitable. hense the need, in any civilized society, for the mixed economy, the eonomy that has proven, time and again, to actually provide what market fundies have always claimed the market would do, but logic proves it can't

**ghettopalmetto** · December-17-09, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Market forces [[not "you" per say) would have built roads far superior in quality and lower in cost than having central government do it....this is an economic absolute.

Since roads are inherently unprofitable, your "market forces" wouldn't have built jack shit.

**elganned** · December-17-09, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Since roads are inherently unprofitable, your "market forces" wouldn't have built jack shit.

Cc's Market Utopia would have a tollbooth on every corner, so return on investment would be guaranteed.

Of course, that would have as much or more of an impact on the economy as, say, gas taxes, but what the heck? Anything in service to the great god Invisible Hand.

ccbatson · December-17-09, 03:40 PM

Roads are unprofitable in the hands of socialists. If there is a need/want/desire [[as there most certainly would be) , someone eager to profit by fulfilling the need, and resources [[ie money) to pay for it....then a free market will make it happen in the most cost effective, efficient and highest quality fashion possible.

Libs simply can't imagine this reality as they are stuck in the programmed collectivist utopian fairy tale world they have been indoctrinated to believe in....BTW, how is that utopia working out for you libs? Not so good I think.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-17-09, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Roads are unprofitable in the hands of socialists. If there is a need/want/desire [[as there most certainly would be) , someone eager to profit by fulfilling the need, and resources [[ie money) to pay for it....then a free market will make it happen in the most cost effective, efficient and highest quality fashion possible.

So why has no massive corporation stepped forward to construct and maintain roads? It must be that all the state departments of transportation are populated with Bolshevik bastards, huh?

**rb336** · December-17-09, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Roads are unprofitable in the hands of socialists. If there is a need/want/desire [[as there most certainly would be) , someone eager to profit by fulfilling the need, and resources [[ie money) to pay for it....then a free market will make it happen in the most cost effective, efficient and highest quality fashion possible.

Libs simply can't imagine this reality as they are stuck in the programmed collectivist utopian fairy tale world they have been indoctrinated to believe in....BTW, how is that utopia working out for you libs? Not so good I think.

ahh, lovely little temper tantrum, Bats. Dogma with no relation to reality.

dogma destroys minds

ccbatson · December-17-09, 04:59 PM

Tantrum? Pick any product or service allowed to be manufactured and traded under free market principles....the model works...ALWAYS

Lorax · December-17-09, 05:55 PM

You are so full of crap, your eyes are brown.

I suppose the Eisenhower [[a Rethuglican by the way) interstate highway system was an unmitigated disaster in your view?

There is not one private corporation that could have taken that on, and it would be a rocky pot holed mess today due to lack of maintenance by greedy for-profit fascists running the corporation.

LOL!!! You really have no clue how a civilized society works- socialism, like the IHS is the only way to do it. Period. Same with health care, and anything else we can socialize would be an improvement.

BTW, it's 30 bucks to ride the Florida Turnpike from Miami to Gainesville, and it saves maybe 30 minutes. Florida operates it as a private corporation, sticking it to you for gas along the way, since you're a captive until you get off of it.

And you should be pleased that since Tush was in office, any Rethuglican run states like Florida were allowed to put in toll lanes on the local interstates like 95 here in Miami- just another chipping away at what our tax dollars paid for once, now they want to allow private enterprise to make money off it.

Private enterprise can go to hell.

**Sstashmoo** · December-17-09, 06:08 PM

Quote: "Private enterprise can go to hell."

Your capitalistic venture included?

Lorax · December-17-09, 06:10 PM

Not especially!

I guess I should have qualified that.

Fascist run private enterprise can go to hell.

Now, that's better!

**Sstashmoo** · December-17-09, 06:34 PM

I see, anyone who profits off of you is a fascist by your definition. However, you profiting off of others is permissible. Cake and eat it too- reasoning there L'rax.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-17-09, 06:45 PM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Tantrum? Pick any product or service allowed to be manufactured and traded under free market principles....the model works...ALWAYS

In addition to roads, how about:

stocks?
housing?
health care?
education?
air travel?
police and fire protection?
military?
parks?
maintenance of navigable waterways?
oversight of elections?

**jiminnm** · December-17-09, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

I see, anyone who profits off of you is a fascist by your definition. However, you profiting off of others is permissible. Cake and eat it too- reasoning there L'rax.

Interesting point, Sstashmoo. Lorax has posted elsewhere that s/he has a large house or condo [[3,200 sq ft?) in Florida and a house in Southfield, and that s/he owned a business. But, maybe Lorax just tripped over a big box of money on the street and chose not to give to the government.

Lorax · December-17-09, 09:18 PM

Cute, guys- it's HE by the way.

Amazing how the simplest of statements can be twisted to another's agenda in record time!

What about the statement don't you understand? Apparently all of it.

It' OK to be for free enterprise as long as you don't lose sight that being a good steward to your community for having the chance to operate a business in America is really what it's all about.

Or should be.

Corporations lose sight of this, and are lost under layers of bureaucracy. Most large concerns are run by rich, white, fascists. They vote overwhelmingly Rethuglican or "Libertarian", and have little or no connection to the communities they are a part of and serve.

They serve only their shareholders and their boards. Even their employees are merely chattle, designed to cost them nothing by the bean counters who keep the books- just look to Walmart as a great example of this.

Corporations can't even come together on the idea of socialized medicine, when it would free them from having to contribute to employee health care plans.

This is due to their far right fascist political leanings- seemingly the rest of the world's democracies can see their way to socialized medicine, but we can't because of the financial hold corporations have over our elected officials, their political ideology, and thus our government.

I'm all for a regulated free market capitalist society as we had before Reagan blew open the doors to corporate welfare, massive corruption and greed.

ccbatson · December-18-09, 01:08 AM

We must remember, as he has expressed via some pointed questions that I had asked on an earlier thread, Lorax is a self loathing capitalist who will deny and derogate the very essence of hi success in life...much like Michael Moore. The sad thing is that this guilt has been inflicted on him by the liberal establishment, and he can't shake it off...for this, he deserves our pity.

**East Detroit** · December-18-09, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Market forces [[not "you" per say) would have built roads far superior in quality and lower in cost than having central government do it....this is an economic absolute.

Yet another comment in which you demonstrate that you have an opinion based not on facts.

And of course you ignore the point of the person you are quoting.

Again, stop driving on MY roads. Build your own private roads.

**elganned** · December-18-09, 09:51 AM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

Roads are unprofitable in the hands of socialists. If there is a need/want/desire [[as there most certainly would be) , someone eager to profit by fulfilling the need, and resources [[ie money) to pay for it....then a free market will make it happen in the most cost effective, efficient and highest quality fashion possible.

Untrue. The need/want/desire for universal electrification existed, as did the need/want/desire for good paved roads. Yet in neither case did any eager entrepreneur step forward to profit by fulfilling the need. Only governments were willing--and able--to serve all the people in these regards.

The only two possible exceptions I can think of in terms of successful private development of universal--or near universal--service industries would be railroads and the telephone. This proves that private enterprise can provide some services without public support, which I have never denied. But to think that all services can be so provided is to adhere blindly to dogma in the face of facts.

Lorax · December-18-09, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by ccbatson

We must remember, as he has expressed via some pointed questions that I had asked on an earlier thread, Lorax is a self loathing capitalist who will deny and derogate the very essence of hi success in life...much like Michael Moore. The sad thing is that this guilt has been inflicted on him by the liberal establishment, and he can't shake it off...for this, he deserves our pity.

Pointed questions? LOL!!!

Self- loathing? Take a look in your mirror- that is if your image reflects at all.

Blunt little instruments you try to dissect me with, Clarice. Sorry, but it hasn't worked.

I am no more "self-loathing" then you are a progressive socialist. No guilt here, O Batty One.

I just believe that corporations left to their own devices without regulation or government oversight is a bad thing, as evidenced by the current economic collapse, brought to us courtesy of the Bush Crime Family and their minions. All stuff you've heard before, nothing new here.

I am perfectly able to own a business, prosper, and have responsibility to my employees, my community, and don't need to be told otherwise. The casino capitalism pepetrated by the Reich has proven a failure that brings all of us down, and continues ufettered under Obama.

Health care will be just another give away to big insurance/pharma, as evidenced by the massive increase in their stock prices over the last few months.

Welcome to more of the same.