DPS is tearin' em down

[Detroitnerd]

It seems to me that selling a building and taking in money is better than spending precious dollars to demolish buildings and leave an empty lot ... especially when that money could be spent on education.

But, heck, what do I know? I only live here and pay taxes here.

[d.mcc]

It seems to me that selling a building and taking in money is better than spending precious dollars to demolish buildings and leave an empty lot ... especially when that money could be spent on education.

But, heck, what do I know? I only live here and pay taxes here.

Your common sense and logic will not be tolerated. Time to hit 8 Mile Free-Thinker

[eastsidechris]

I happened to drive by my old school, Detroit City High, this past weekend. It was in sad shape. All main entrances to the building were wide open--it looks like a truck drove into the doors--and many of the classrooms were open to the outside because their wooden panels were torn off. It was very sad.

Even more disturbing? I spoke with a colleague and he said he has been inside the building within the past couple of months because he was on the hunt for old textbooks. He went to his old classroom, opened his old closet door, and sure enough, there they were.

It's a crime how haphazardly schools like mine were moved into new buildings and the district [[this was at the end of the 2006-07 school year) failed to come up with a solid plan for how to do it--just like we were afraid they were going to do.

[bailey]

It seems to me that selling a building and taking in money is better than spending precious dollars to demolish buildings and leave an empty lot ... especially when that money could be spent on education.

But, heck, what do I know? I only live here and pay taxes here.

What is the market rate for an empty school these days?

[ghettopalmetto]

What is the market rate for an empty school these days?

No one knows until you actually put it up for sale....

[bailey]

No one knows until you actually put it up for sale....

Well, you're the one claiming to be learned professional in the field, what is the market rate for similarly situated square footage in similar condition in the city of Detroit?

[andybsg]

What is the market rate for an empty school these days?

My guess is sky high! Let's base it on the Cass Tech development. That has gone swingingly. Detroit is making millions on that redevelopment. When I look at the success of the Old Cass Tech, I ask myself, "why wouldn't a developer want to purchase obscure, outdated building that has been divided into small little rooms throughout? I mean there must be a million uses for one of those, right? Maybe as a move studio or as a museum? The possibilities are endless!

[Det_ard]

If DPS sells the building to an investor, it's not their concern. DPS isn't qualified to be a real estate developer, so who are they to determine who's "qualified". Let the individual developers and the banks sort out the financials. You don't know whether or not a viable project is proposed unless you give the opportunity. Hiding information only makes a proposal that much less feasible. DPS should in no way be a gatekeeper for what it has deemed "excess" properties that they're only going to destroy, anyway--they have other responsibilities that are far more important to its mission.



You don't know if a developer is competent until they actually complete a project. Or were you referring to Detroit's longstanding culture of pay-to-play??? Glad to see that Detroit has plenty of backbenchers who can quickly determine which developers are qualified.



So, you have a group who's willing and attempting to turn the tide, yet you'd rather sit on your hands and wait for something to magically happen. Your kind needs to step aside rather than make judgments of those who are attempting to improve your city.

Frankly, it's not for you, or DPS, or anyone else to decide that a Cass Tech renovation makes no financial sense to a would-be developer. Unless, of course, you're his accountant.



Bemoan the architects, planners, preservationists, and engineers as much as you wish. Who do you think the developers hire for these sorts of projects? These are the do-ers who make it happen and have knowledge as to what is and is not feasible. These professionals have experience in this regard, whilst you sit idly by complaining and whining how things can't be done, waiting for some magic genie in a bottle to rain mountains of cash on the city.

If a developer is able to make a Cass Tech renovation work, what do you lose? And is that any worse than a multi-million dollar vacant lot?

Just as you, a competent professional in your field, can determine the feasibility of a project from an engineering standpoint, there are financial and real estate professionals who can determine the feasibility of a project from a financial and real estate standpoint.

It's counterproductive to sell a school to some wanna-be developer for a $1 only to see him never get off the ground with his project. Instead, the school deteriorates year after year because the wanna-be developer lacks the money and/or willlingness to provide security and upkeep. Without the money to develop, to secure, to demolish or to pay taxes, what he does have in a low-cost call option if by some chance the property becomes more valuable some day. It's in his interest to hang on to it for as long as possible, even if it drags down the neighborhood. Doesn't Detroit have enough of that already?

Your lack of concern regarding the ability of a buyer to actually redevelop the property is shortsighted. The minimal amount of money you'd get for one of these buildings isn't worth having it sit there in ruins for the next 20 years, becoming the neighborhood dope house and rape room.

I don't think you really understand the business side of all this. You think some white knight will swoop in and redevelop these buildings despite a lack of demand for the finished product. Most of these schools aren't anywhere you'd want to be. If they were high potential properties I'd be against demoing them. They're not. They virtually worthless. There are many thousands of other vacant buildings that have been available for years that haven't sold at any price. These are just a dozen more.

Don't you ever get tired of telling people how to do things right? Don't you ever want to get in here and show us how to do it? What the hell's stopping you? You can buy a building here for a pittance and show us how it's done. None of the professional investors and developers see the potential that you do. I'm sure they're all wrong and you're right.

[ghettopalmetto]

I'm sorry, Det_ard--are the Detroit Public Schools suddenly involved in real estate development? Building code enforcement? City planning?

The answer to all of the above, of course, is NO, they are not. So why do you put the onus on DPS to bear responsibility for whatever happens to one of their buildings after they sell it to a developer?

There is a party interested in redeveloping Cass Tech. Detroit Public Schools has refused to allow them access to develop a proposal and even investigate whether or not they have a project. Maybe they do. Maybe they don't. You can't make a decision on incomplete information. It's the same old Detroit bullshit--if you're not one of the Best Buddies [[TM) of the City government, you don't get to play ball.

You say there's a lack of demand. Show me your data. Show me that, beyond the shadow of a doubt, there will be no positive demand for loft apartments for well-to-do professionals in an urban setting in the year 2012, when such a project would be complete [[at it's earliest). Go ahead, Mr. Speculator.

Don't you ever get tired of doing things the wrong way?

[ghettopalmetto]

Ray Litt, director of Historic Cass Technical High Preservation Society, said he is still hoping his group can save the old Cass Tech building, but pointed out they have been unable to get into the building to assess its condition before a bid can be made to purchase. Litt said the group has a developer already who plans to turn the building into a mixture of retail, entertainment and office space for nonprofit groups.

Yup. That sure sounds like no demand to me! Tear that schitt down!!! Who needs $33 million? Adamo does, that's who!

[Det_ard]

Who's the developer? How much equity does he have? Where will he get his financing? What's his track record of success in similar projects? Where his market demand study?

[bailey]

Who's the developer? How much equity does he have? Where will he get his financing? What's his track record of success in similar projects? Where his market demand study?

The other article, quoting someone else says:

He added the society is talking to a prominent local developer about a rehab project. He declined to identify the developer or give details.

If the developer won't even attach publicly to an exploration of possible development what does that say about the level of commitment to the project?

[ghettopalmetto]

Who's the developer? How much equity does he have? Where will he get his financing? What's his track record of success in similar projects? Where his market demand study?

That's for his lenders and investors to figure out, isn't it? If he's buys the building from DPS and shows up with a fat check, what the fuck do the Detroit Public Schools care about ANY of this???

I'd personally like to see Cass Tech renovated. I don't know whether or not that is viable. But then again, NOBODY knows the viability of such a project, because DPS isn't permitting access.

It seems like our Usual Gang of Armchair Developers has had no trouble making up their minds in the absence of complete information, though.

[bailey]

That's for his lenders and investors to figure out, isn't it? If he's buys the building from DPS and shows up with a fat check, what the fuck do the Detroit Public Schools care about ANY of this???

I'd personally like to see Cass Tech renovated. I don't know whether or not that is viable. But then again, NOBODY knows the viability of such a project, because DPS isn't permitting access.

It seems like our Usual Gang of Armchair Developers has had no trouble making up their minds in the absence of complete information, though.

OMFG Man, look around at the landscape of lofts developed over the last 10 years for your mythical hordes of yuppies dying to live downtown. The Book Caddy...the PREMIER development had to have a goddamn fire sale to get them sold and there are STILL properties left. What is occupancy at Woodward lofts these days? Take a drive through Brush Park lately? How are those "coming summer of 2008" signs holding up? Milwakee Junction lofts? Research park lofts? @water lofts? Whatever the other Rivertown lofts, anyone break ground yet? How are the 1001 Woodward lofts doing? How are the willies lofts doing? Park Shelton selling like hot cakes? Ellington did really well at it's fire sale...should I go on?

You're all over this board demanding market studies and predicitons.... how about you point to ONE GODDAMN THING that backs up your point that the DPS is leaving MILLIONS on the table here?

[Det_ard]

This ain't our first rodeo, cowpuncher. Money talks and bullshit walks. IF he shows up with a fat check, fantastic. He'd pretty much be the first. What size check are you expecting? 7-figures? 8? Or 4 and a lotta happy talk?

What do you want to bet he shows up with a pretty color rendering and some vague hand waving about the unlimited potential. And a request for all kinds of alphabet soup equity participation to make up for the squat he's coming to the table with.

[ghettopalmetto]

OMFG Man, look around at the landscape of lofts developed over the last 10 years for your mythical hordes of yuppies dying to live downtown. The Book Caddy...the PREMIER development had to have a goddamn fire sale to get them sold and there are STILL properties left. What is occupancy at Woodward lofts these days? Take a drive through Brush Park lately? How are those "coming summer of 2008" signs holding up? Milwakee Junction lofts? Research park lofts? @water lofts? Whatever the other Rivertown lofts, anyone break ground yet? How are the 1001 Woodward lofts doing? How are the willies lofts doing? Park Shelton selling like hot cakes? Ellington did really well at it's fire sale...should I go on?

You're all over this board demanding market studies and predicitons.... how about you point to ONE GODDAMN THING that backs up your point that the DPS is leaving MILLIONS on the table here?

I'm not demanding market studies and predictions. I'm saying, very succinctly:

1. There is a developer interested in Cass Tech.
2. DPS has not permitted the developer to access the property to conduct an evaluation.
3. As a result, the developer does not have enough information to make a realistic determination whether or not his plan is viable, nor does he have anything he can present to a lender to secure financing.

Let the investor decide if the project is worthwhile or not--not DPS, not George Jackson, not the Mayor, not you, not anyone but the guy putting his own ass at risk. You're so quick to tell this guy "no"--well, it's not your money, and it's not your shirt on the line. You'd rather spend millions of public dollars than to even let an investor ATTEMPT to take a piece of property off the hands of DPS. Where's the logic in that?

You really do enjoy speaking for other people's pocketbooks, don't you? I'm sure John Ferchill doesn't give two shits how much you make at your job.

So, let's see: DPS could possibly give away, or even sell, a building--or spend millions to demolish it and get nothing in return. That sounds like "leaving millions on the table" to me.

But hey, enjoy your multi-million dollar empty lot. I'm sure it'll be lovely, and the centerpiece of the impending Detroit renaissance. Any day now, right?

[Detroitnerd]

Why does everybody want DPS to be a developer? It's not. Sell that schitt and make some jack instead of spending money to knock it down. Use the money for pupils, not Adamo.

[kathy2trips]

Save Our Structures

[bailey]

I'm not demanding market studies and predictions. I'm saying, very succinctly:

1. There is a developer interested in Cass Tech.[a double secret one that can not be named at anytime in the 4.5 years the building has been empty]
2. DPS has not permitted the developer to access the property to conduct an evaluation.[maybe it's because no one has attached an actual name to the project? ]
3. As a result, the developer does not have enough information to make a realistic determination whether or not his plan is viable, nor does he have anything he can present to a lender to secure financing.[or maybe that is all bullshit and there is no developer?]

.. since we're now talking about just Cass tech, can we assume you are on board with the other 99 demos?

[KENSINGTONY]

Early this year Mr.Bobb announced that Finney High School would close at the end of the 08-09 school year,be mostly torn down and be rebuilt and ready for the 10-11 school year.It closed,alright,but the place hasn't been touched since.Does anybody know what's going on with it?

[Rocko]

Several schools in addition to Finney were slated to be "rebuilt." What exactly does rebuilt mean? Does it mean the old structure will be demolished completely, and a new building serving the same grades will be built on the same site? Or does it mean a portion of each structure will be demolished and new portions added to some part of the old structure? Or does it mean the entire building will be gutted to the frame and rebuilt? Or does it just mean extensive facelifting of existing buildings? Does anyone know any more details?

[jcole]

This is from a Google search that I did. It is part of a letter posted on the DPS website on May 12, 2009. I have provided a link to the rest of the letter which may answer some of your questions

Fourth, we will invest $123 million in stimulus funds through the Qualified
School Construction Bond program. Our first project will be to rebuild and
replace Finney High School, with doors to open the first day of school in fall
2011 at an estimated cost of $70 million. In the meantime Finney will be
relocated to the McNair building to allow for this construction to take place
over the next 24 month period.

http://www.detroit.k12.mi.us/admin/f...bertC.Bobb.pdf

[Lorax]

If a developer shows up with 10 grand to buy any of these buildings, and they are placed on the tax rolls, then it's a win/win, even if they remain vacant and mothballed indefinitely.

The problem is in enforcement of existing tax laws- the city needs to pursue through recourse any and all land/building owners who don't pay their taxes. If they default, they need to spend the money on attorneys to personally pursue the assets of these "developers" who default.

Sell the buildings cheap to get them off the back of the DPS and turn them into tax paying entities by selling them off to private enterprise.

[DetroitDad]

I seem to remember a rendering being released, many years ago, of what was planned for the old Cass Tech site when the new one was under construction, it included large baseball diamonds, I believe. Does anyone have a copy of those old renderings, before the preservation groups protested?

[Patrick]

DPS has a hell of a lot more to worry about. Did you see the test scores all over the news? Those numbers are borderline retarded.