Philadelphia grew for first time in nearly 60 years

[iheartthed]

By the way, Detroit is not isolated. There are over 50 million people within a 300 mile radius of downtown Detroit.

[ghettopalmetto]

I guess you sort of beg the question; has Philly "turned around" or has it simply reached an equilibrium point after a generation of anti city baby boomers, a generation of steep manufacturing industrial decline, and a generation of sprawl in it's suburbs?

Perhaps that is all we're really seeing there. Philly with a diversified economy, favorable location, historic prominence...etc, has simply found its level. Detroit [[and Michigan too?), with it's reliance on one sector, it's relative isloation, its populations' anti "cities" mentality, and dedication to status quo...simply has not? Maybe Detroit's real equilibrium point is around the half million point?

You have to reach an "equilibrium point" before you can turn around, no?

And for what it's worth, most of Philadelphia's housing stock was constructed in the 1930s or earlier. Ergo, they've already had four generations of suburbanization.

I'm not sure what the intent of the second paragraph of your post is, but it seems like you think Detroit can rebound with a laissez-faire approach. If this is the case, I disagree wholeheartedly. Do you really want to see how far Detroit can bottom-out before any serious attempt at reconstruction is made? If you think Detroit has an unfavorable location and is isolated, you're flat-out insane. If your cities look like Detroit, Flint and Lansing, guess what?--you're populace is going to become anti-urban. From my experience, though, many Michiganders go to places like Chicago or DC for vacation, and even visit places like Ann Arbor, and seem to enjoy themselves immensely. The people aren't anti-urban--they're anti-stupidity.

[bailey]

By the way, Detroit is not isolated. There are over 50 million people within a 300 mile radius of downtown Detroit.

which is why I said "relative"....as in "compared to".

[quote]

I'm not sure what the intent of the second paragraph of your post is, but it seems like you think Detroit can rebound with a laissez-faire approach. If this is the case, I disagree wholeheartedly

Nope, i'm saying that laissez-faire or "do nothing different"...is the default position here now and likely will be until Detroit hits rock bottom,

. Do you really want to see how far Detroit can bottom-out before any serious attempt at reconstruction is made?

Not particularly, seems like we're getting pretty close to heading that direction. However, it's also seems pretty clear nothing will be done until we do.

If you think Detroit has an unfavorable location and is isolated, you're flat-out insane

THE POINT WAS AS IN COMPARISON TO PHILLY...hence the word "relative".

If your cities look like Detroit, Flint and Lansing, guess what?--you're populace is going to become anti-urban.

If your population relies upon cradle to the grave employment in a dying sector of the economy for 40 years, when you population demands first world amenities but not first world taxes, when your leadership at all levels lacks any vision or ability...well, you're going to get Detroit, Flint and Lansing regardless.

From my experience, though, many Michiganders go to places like Chicago or DC for vacation, and even visit places like Ann Arbor, and seem to enjoy themselves immensely. The people aren't anti-urban--they're anti-stupidity

The problem of course, is the anti-stupid, as is shown on an almost daily basis...and certainly at election time/millage time, are vastly outnumbered.

[ghettopalmetto]

which is why I said "relative"....as in "compared to".

Detroit is:

40 miles from Ann Arbor
50 miles from Toledo
90 miles from Lansing
130 miles from London
160 miles from Grand Rapids
175 miles from Cleveland
190 miles from Akron
190 miles from Fort Wayne
200 miles from Columbus
245 miles from Toronto
260 miles from Cincinnati
270 miles from Buffalo
280 miles from Chicago
285 miles from Pittsburgh
310 miles from Indianapolis
across the river from Windsor

With road and rail connections to all of the above.

Remind me how Detroit is isolated?

[bailey]

Detroit is:

40 miles from Ann Arbor
50 miles from Toledo
90 miles from Lansing
130 miles from London
160 miles from Grand Rapids
175 miles from Cleveland
190 miles from Akron
200 miles from Columbus
245 miles from Toronto
260 miles from Cincinnati
270 miles from Buffalo
280 miles from Chicago
285 miles from Pittsburgh
310 miles from Indianapolis
across the river from Windsor

With road and rail connections to all of the above.

Remind me how Detroit is isolated?

Seriously? A lot of commuting to Indianapolis going on? Gonna hop the acela to Pittsburgh for that pitch meeting? hey, let's head to that economic juggernaut of Akron. Hey, lets take 7 hours by amtrack to get to Chicago for a weekend? In fact 9 of those cities are at least 4+ hours away- by car...i would think longer if flying allowing for getting to airport, delays..etc.-. and that is on a good day and not having a hassle in either traffic or the border.

Isolated...as in from the east coast Boston to DC/eastern seaboard/center of economic and political power.....as in compared to Philly which is what I thought was the point of this thread.

[ghettopalmetto]

Seriously? A lot of commuting to Indianapolis going on? Gonna hop the acelia to Pittsburgh for that pitch meeting? hey, let's head to that economic juggernaut of Akron. Hey, lets take 7 hours by amtrack to get to Chicago for a weekend?

Isolated...as in from the east coast Boston to DC/eastern seaboard/center of economic and political power.....as in compared to Philly which is what I thought was the point of this thread.

You just like to dance, don't you? Chicago is even further from the East Coast than Detroit. What's your excuse for their success? What about Atlanta, as awful as it is, which isn't close to jack shit? And for as much as you want to put down Akron, it's in far better shape than Detroit is these days.

Thanks to the State of Ohio, yes, there will be high speed rail from Detroit to Pittsburgh in the future [[and to most of the cities that I listed, for that matter).

You can sit on your ass and make the same excuses that got Detroit to this point, or you can come up with ideas to move the place forward.

[English]

I sometimes wonder, with the economic downturn and the need for retraining, why the University of Michigan wouldn't expand their "Detroit center" into a full-fledged campus. Yes, I know that U-M Dearborn is less than 30 minutes away, but all my buddies earning grad degrees in architecture, urban studies, sociology, and a few other key fields spend a lot of time in the city anyway. There's plenty of room in the area south of Wayne State's campus to do this, and the schools are all supposed to be part of the research corridor anyway.

[iheartthed]

which is why I said "relative"....as in "compared to".

Compared to Philly? How many people do you think live within a 300 mile radius of Philadelphia? I can assure you that it ain't much more than 50 million, if even that many. In fact, there are probably only but a handful of major cities on this continent that are situated in proximity to so many people.

[detourdetroit]

amen to that english. you should be in charge of the long march "home" for [[at least part of) the Catholepistemiad. a great idea that i've often wondered why uofm didn't pursue more wholeheartedly. if nyu can open in unsustainable but wealthy abu dhabi http://nyuad.nyu.edu/, why can't uofm open in sustainable but poor detroit?!?

[bailey]

You just like to dance, don't you? Chicago is even further from the East Coast than Detroit. What's your excuse for their success? What about Atlanta, as awful as it is, which isn't close to jack shit? And for as much as you want to put down Akron, it's in far better shape than Detroit is these days.

I love to dance. are you asking me out?

I don't' think you understand. I am not disagreeing with you. Detroit is a colossal failure of a city PRECISELY because it did not embrace efficiency, innovation, or even things that just are plain common sense.

Thanks to the State of Ohio, yes, there will be high speed rail from Detroit to Pittsburgh in the future [[and to most of the cities that I listed, for that matter).

what's that skipper's rule again?

You can sit on your ass and make the same excuses that got Detroit to this point, or you can come up with ideas to move the place forward.

I think about a 5.00 tax on a gallon of gas, dropping income taxes, but raising sales taxes, chpt 9 for Detroit, about 50 square miles of Detroit proper vacated completely and taken off the grid, the construction of comprehensive and coherent metro mass transit, and making the expressways all toll roads might be a good start, but none of that is too likely now is it?

What are you proposing that isnt simply tinkering at the margins?

[bailey]

Compared to Philly? How many people do you think live within a 300 mile radius of Philadelphia? I can assure you that it ain't much more than 50 million, if even that many. In fact, there are probably only but a handful of major cities on this continent that are situated in proximity to so many people.

76 million [[a quarter of the total population of the US) live within 300 miles of Philly.

[Fury13]

I recently visited Philly and really enjoyed it. There is a real big-city vibrancy there, an energy not unlike NYC or Chicago. Downtown and the inner city areas are highly walkable and densely populated. Many neighborhoods are viable and the park areas feel monumental in a European way. There is a subway and other rail to the outlying areas, and buses are heavily used. I get a feeling that the residents truly like living there. Oh, and the surrounding countryside of eastern Pennsylvania is beautiful, too. I can see why, like D.C., Philadelphia is resurgent.

[Detroitnerd]

I think about a 5.00 tax on gas

So that gas sells for $7.50 a gallon? What area would this tax cover? Taxed at what governmental level? What would it pay for?

chpt 9 for Detroit

So Lansing can step in? They did a good job in Hamtramck, a poor job with DPS, and bailed on Highland Park, appointing a flunky. Or is it worth it just to stick it to the unions?

chpt 9 for Detroit about 50 square miles of Detroit proper vacated completely

Eminent domain-style?

the construction of comprehensive and coherent metro mass transit

Where would the money come from?

making the expressways all toll roads

The federales might object to that, seeing as they own them.

[bailey]

So that gas sells for $7.50 a gallon? What area would this tax cover? Taxed at what governmental level? What would it pay for?

State. would go to mass transit and alternative fuel grid construction. nothing else.

So Lansing can step in? They did a good job in Hamtramck, a poor job with DPS, and bailed on Highland Park, appointing a flunky. Or is it worth it just to stick it to the unions?

Highland park was doing well until the McNamara flunky in a skirt we call Governor, replaced the highly competent manager with [[per the detroit news) a "nickle grubbing bottom feeder". Elect better leaders get better results. Of course, Mike Cox is probably the next Gov, so all of this is simply fantasy.

Eminent domain-style?

yup. It aint getting done any other way.

Where would the money come from?

5.00 tax on gas and increase sales tax. Um..also maybe asking our congressional delegation to actually bring home some pork?

The federales might object to that, seeing as they own them.

you're right [[that was included in the "not too likely" thought). let's just start with the state roads. or at the least, holding granholm ...and soon to be Cox administration to the promise of JUST fixing and maintaining roads, not these ridiculous expansions.

My point though is that detroit and SeM are way past the point where small changes will do anything and I believe that the big changes that are required, will never happen because of inertia and unwillingness of anyone here...from the governor to the taxpayer...to actually do what needs to be done.

[English]

amen to that english. you should be in charge of the long march "home" for [[at least part of) the Catholepistemiad. a great idea that i've often wondered why uofm didn't pursue more wholeheartedly. if nyu can open in unsustainable but wealthy abu dhabi http://nyuad.nyu.edu/, why can't uofm open in sustainable but poor detroit?!?

Thanks! Up here in the Land of the Maize and Blue, across schools and departments, faculty, staff, and students talk about bridging the divide between the university and the community. Ann Arbor is a relatively prosperous community... but we have a huge opportunity to implement our theories, research findings, and ideas in a city that's literally down the road from us. Yet sometimes folks up here outside of the urban planning, architectural, and sociological fields act as if Detroit is a million miles away.

We were sitting in a meeting earlier this week and people began to talk about how to enjoy the winter, and activities around Ann Arbor and Washtenaw County. You better believe I put in a plug for the city... "what's winter without Noel Night? And if you like the new UMMA, you'll LOVE the new DIA!"

[lalynch]

my lifelong ambition has been to move to Philly. I was born in Philly at Thomas Jefferson Memorial Hospital. We lived at 22nd & Chestnut Street until I was about 1.5 years old. I'm 50 now and should of done it when I was 18. I did interview for jobs there in 1995 and 1996 but couldn't fine one in my field. My Dad was from the North Philadelphia Nicetown neighborhood. His father worked at Midvale Steel which no longer exists. My dad's parents came to Philadelphia from Ireland with my grandmother coming over about 1890 and my grandfather about 1900. The family church was St. Stephens Catholic Church at Broad & Butler Street. My Dad briefly went to Temple University before WWII broke out. I am on a blog for his Catholic grade school where everyone talks about the old neighborhood. Dad went to Northeast Catholic High School which is scheduled to close in 2010. My mom is from West Norriton in Montgomery County and is a Penn grad with a degree in architecture. She's 84 now and kept up her Pennsylvania architects license until a few years ago. She worked at Wanamaker's as a store planner until I was born. My Dad's brother lived in Frankford. His wife worked for Smith Kline & French Laboratories. My cousins aunts lived at the Claridge apartments at Rittenhouse Square. My cousin has a jewelry store in Jewelers Row in Center City. My mom's dad was born in Port Kennedy which was condemmed by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to form Valley Forge State Park in the early 20th century. Philadelphia has always been my absolute favorite city with its row houses and other historic buildings. And its only 2 hours from the Jersey Shore! I love Ocean City, NJ! One of these days I'll move back to Philly!

[dfunkycity]

You just like to dance, don't you? Chicago is even further from the East Coast than Detroit. What's your excuse for their success? What about Atlanta, as awful as it is, which isn't close to jack shit? And for as much as you want to put down Akron, it's in far better shape than Detroit is these days.

Thanks to the State of Ohio, yes, there will be high speed rail from Detroit to Pittsburgh in the future [[and to most of the cities that I listed, for that matter).

You can sit on your ass and make the same excuses that got Detroit to this point, or you can come up with ideas to move the place forward.

Chicago's success is due to Oprah.
When she leaves, its going downhill.
It will take a few years but it will go downward. Maybe a little, maybe a lot . But it will go down to some extent.

[dfunkycity]

my lifelong ambition has been to move to Philly. I was born in Philly at Thomas Jefferson Memorial Hospital. We lived at 22nd & Chestnut Street until I was about 1.5 years old. I'm 50 now and should of done it when I was 18. I did interview for jobs there in 1995 and 1996 but couldn't fine one in my field. My Dad was from the North Philadelphia Nicetown neighborhood. His father worked at Midvale Steel which no longer exists. My dad's parents came to Philadelphia from Ireland with my grandmother coming over about 1890 and my grandfather about 1900. The family church was St. Stephens Catholic Church at Broad & Butler Street. My Dad briefly went to Temple University before WWII broke out. I am on a blog for his Catholic grade school where everyone talks about the old neighborhood. Dad went to Northeast Catholic High School which is scheduled to close in 2010. My mom is from West Norriton in Montgomery County and is a Penn grad with a degree in architecture. She's 84 now and kept up her Pennsylvania architects license until a few years ago. She worked at Wanamaker's as a store planner until I was born. My Dad's brother lived in Frankford. His wife worked for Smith Kline & French Laboratories. My cousins aunts lived at the Claridge apartments at Rittenhouse Square. My cousin has a jewelry store in Jewelers Row in Center City. My mom's dad was born in Port Kennedy which was condemmed by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania to form Valley Forge State Park in the early 20th century. Philadelphia has always been my absolute favorite city with its row houses and other historic buildings. And its only 2 hours from the Jersey Shore! I love Ocean City, NJ! One of these days I'll move back to Philly!

Wannamaker's is a gorgeous structure. Really an example of architecture as art.
Now its a Macy's.

[lalynch]

Wannamaker's is a gorgeous structure. Really an example of architecture as art.
Now its a Macy's.

I always loved going to Wanamaker's. One trip we stopped in the store planning department and my mom's old boss and a co-worker were still working there. It was probably the early 1970's. Her old boss and his wife at the time were care takers of the historic Powell House in Philly and lived in his 3rd floor.

[English]

Wannamaker's is a gorgeous structure. Really an example of architecture as art.
Now its a Macy's.

It was an awe-inspiring experience, shopping at the Philadelphia Macy's the weekend before Thanksgiving. It was all decked out for the holidays. The salesgirl told me that I had to stay long enough to hear the organ that they played at noon. So I did. After I bought my gift, I walked around and experienced for the very first time in my life what it's like to be in an old-fashioned department store in the U.S. [[I'll admit that I've been to NYC multiple times, but have never done the NY Macy's or Bloomingdale's).

I've always heard that the old J.L. Hudson's building was also very beautiful. So I stood there, listened to the organ, took in the decor and the crowds and the sheer heft of the building... and tears started rolling down my cheeks.

[[Disclaimer: I tend to cry over grand old architectural landmarks, had to be carried out of Notre Dame de Paris by friends when I swooned [[it was Bastille Day vespers -- SO beautiful!), and will likely faint when I finally do make it to Egypt... so please, ignore me. )

[dfunkycity]

I've always said that if you wanted to feel as if you were thrown back in time to the late 60's / early 70's Detroit just go to Philly.

Especially Christmastime. I can't really explain why. Nor can I put my finger on it in any way but this is the way Philly makes me feel.

There's just something about that city that feels like home. Old home , and it is really a great feeling going there when I can.


I think I may go down in a week or 2 just to get that feeling again.

[krapug1]

Wannamaker's is a gorgeous structure. Really an example of architecture as art.
Now its a Macy's.

Actually the redevelopment of the Wanamaker Building is a reminder of what could have been done with the J L Hudson Building.

Prior to 1987, John Wanamaker used the lower level thru 9th floor for retail space. The building was sold to a real estate trust who rebuilt the structure, and leased back the street floor to fifth floor to Wanamakers.
This space was also rebuilt and renovated. The below ground floors were rebuilt as a parking garage. The upper floors were renovated to into Class A office space, and the 9th floor Crystal Room complex [[think Hudson's 13th floor) was restored and is leased to Marriot who runs it as a catering facility.

When Wanamakers went bankrupt, the company that bought out the stores [[May Company) said they only agreed to run the Center City store since the retail space was reduced to a manageable level. May Co., fist ran the
store as Hecht's, and then a Lord and Taylor.

The retail space was consolidated to three selling floors before Lord and Taylor opened, and that is the space that Macy's uses today.
Macy's actually uses more space on the existing 3 floors that L & T did not use.

Macy's continues the daily organ concerts, the Christmas Light show, the eagle, and the Dickens Village, a walk through holiday display moved from the now closed Strawbridge store.

Ken

[Fury13]

Chicago's success is due to Oprah.
When she leaves, its going downhill.
It will take a few years but it will go downward. Maybe a little, maybe a lot . But it will go down to some extent.

Now, THAT is one of the most naive, ridiculous statements I've ever seen posted in this forum. Thanks for the belly-laugh!

[Fury13]

Philadelphia has always been my absolute favorite city with its row houses and other historic buildings. And its only 2 hours from the Jersey Shore! I love Ocean City, NJ!

Yeah, the Jersey Shore is hard to beat... Ocean City... Wildwood... Cape May... wow.

[Fury13]

.
I've always heard that the old J.L. Hudson's building was also very beautiful. So I stood there, listened to the organ, took in the decor and the crowds and the sheer heft of the building... and tears started rolling down my cheeks.

[[Disclaimer: I tend to cry over grand old architectural landmarks, had to be carried out of Notre Dame de Paris by friends when I swooned [[it was Bastille Day vespers -- SO beautiful!), and will likely faint when I finally do make it to Egypt... so please, ignore me. )

No disclaimer needed. Completely understandable. Great architecture is supposed to "stir men's [[and women's) souls"... just ask Daniel Burnham.