Philadelphia grew for first time in nearly 60 years

[iheartthed]

Yeah, so how is this a Detroit issue? Because Philadelphia has been shrinking for as long as Detroit has, albeit at a slower rate. So if it is possible for Philly to stop its 60 year population decline, what will it take for Detroit to grow again?

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/ho...e_bigger_.html

[Detroitnerd]

All we have to do is become a suburb of New York City.

[iheartthed]

All we have to do is become a suburb of New York City.

Let's attach ourselves to Chicago. We can be known as the Second Suburb. Get it?

[Detroitnerd]

Acela gets passengers from New York's Penn Station to Philly in 50 minutes. We'd need a bullet train to do that!

[iheartthed]

Acela gets passengers from New York's Penn Station to Philly in 50 minutes. We'd need a bullet train to do that!

That President Obama sure is a visionary:

http://www.fra.dot.gov/us/content/648

[Detroitnerd]

Sigh. That's a neat program. Still, I'd really much rather have a link with Toledo!

[Traxus]

Not to drown anyone in a pit of irony, but I know a few people who have moved to Philly. I don't find the place half bad myself, the legal street art really livens the place up.

[ghettopalmetto]

Philadelphia was able to accommodate this population growth because they didn't spend millions of dollars turning neighborhoods into scenes from "Mad Max".

Oh yeah, that whole thing where the city is walkable doesn't make it a bad place to live, either.

[bailey]

Philadelphia was able to accommodate this population growth because they didn't spend millions of dollars turning neighborhoods into scenes from "Mad Max".

Oh yeah, that whole thing where the city is walkable doesn't make it a bad place to live, either.

Might also have something to do with Philly having 3 major research institutions [[one an Ivy ) and about 15 other colleges and universities there. IIRC Metro Philly area has the highest concentration of colleges and college students in the country.

Take away that massive economic driver, and I bet you'd get Detroit....no matter how walkable.

[ghettopalmetto]

Might also have something to do with Philly having 3 major research institutions [[one an Ivy ) and about 15 other colleges and universities there. IIRC Metro Philly area has the highest concentration of colleges and college students in the country.

Take away that massive economic driver, and I bet you'd get Detroit....no matter how walkable.

Yet those three major research universities weren't able to stem Philly's decline for the past 60 years, yet somehow they're the reason for a gain in population?

[bailey]

Yet those three major research universities weren't able to stem Philly's decline for the past 60 years, yet somehow they're the reason for a gain in population?

I'll behave myself, as to keep my otherwise legitimate post worth reading...

I'm not making any excuse. Just pointing out the glaring omission in your post.

[Detroitnerd]

The problem with Detroit is that the people with the money here don't feel they need the city. These sorts of people will always default to a cornucopia of conflicting causes for Detroit's decline.

[iheartthed]

IIRC Metro Philly area has the highest concentration of colleges and college students in the country.

I'm pretty sure that would be Boston.

[bailey]

I'm pretty sure that would be Boston.

You're right, i stand corrected, per Google.... Philly is not #1.

Philadelphia is one of the largest college towns in the United States and has the second-largest student concentration on the East Coast with over 120,000 college and university students enrolled within the city and nearly 300,000 in the metropolitan area. There are over 80 colleges, universities, trade, and specialty schools in the Philadelphia region. The city contains three major research universities: the University of Pennsylvania, Drexel University, and Temple University. Other institutions of higher learning within the city's borders include Saint Joseph's University, La Salle University, Peirce College, University of the Sciences in Philadelphia, The University of the Arts, Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts, the Curtis Institute of Music, Thomas Jefferson University, Moore College of Art and Design, The Art Institute of Philadelphia, Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine, The Restaurant School at Walnut Hill College, Philadelphia University, Chestnut Hill College, Holy Family University, the Community College of Philadelphia and Messiah College Philadelphia Campus.

Philadelphia's famous Pennsylvania Main Line and western suburbs are home to other notable colleges and universities including Villanova University, Bryn Mawr College, Haverford College, and Swarthmore College.

The city is a national center of law because of the University of Pennsylvania Law School, Drexel University Earle Mack School of Law, Temple University Beasley School of Law, Rutgers University School of Law - Camden, Villanova University School of Law, and Widener University School of Law. Additionally, the headquarters of the American Law Institute is located in the city.

But yeah, other than that, it's just like Detroit.

[iheartthed]

You're right, i stand corrected, per Google.... Philly is not #1.




But yeah, other than that, it's just like Detroit.

You quote a wikipedia entry to prove some point about Philly and Detroit being dissimilar? Have you ever even been to Philly? I'm there several times a year. I know what it looks like.

Detroit also has several colleges and/or universities, and even more in the surrounding areas [[one of which is a very highly ranked university). In fact, the only school that really differentiates Philadelphia proper's university stock from Detroit's is Penn [[and it is an Ivy League school... so duh, right?). And outside of University City [[and not very far outside of it, I must stress), Philly's neighborhoods appear to be just as depressed as many of the neighborhoods in Detroit. Granted, you don't find areas depopulated to the extent that some sections of Detroit [[well, maybe in North Philadelphia), but Philly gets rough too.

[Traxus]

The high concentration of colleges, and walkability are some of many reasons 20 somethings find the city attractive [[the subway/bus system helps too). It also costs about the same as Detroit, but has the proximity to New York going for it. Philly is just in a better position to grow, they've been there for quite awhile.

[EastsideAl]

Philly has, and has always had, a very different economy from Detroit's, which is the main factor. It also held onto enough of its urban middle class to keep the city from tipping into a complete slide. 3 of the reasons for that are, a large business/office community downtown that did not flee to the suburbs, a mass transit system that enables large numbers of people to get into and out of the central city, and around the core area, without a car, and the preservation of a lot of attractive historic housing, despite calls to "urban renew" it out of existence a few decades ago.

In Detroit, we never had most people working downtown, but in manufacturing facilities spread throughout the city and the area, none of our largest companies were ever headquartered downtown [[until GM's move to Ren Cen), and many of our secondary and support businesses fled to the suburbs at the first sign of problems long ago. Mass transit is of course largely non-existent, and we destroyed many of our beautiful old neighborhoods, or simply left them to rot away like Brush Park. Instead of building a walkable city like Philly, with nice transit friendly older neighborhoods and active street-level business centers, we just kept tearing stuff down so that we could park yet more cars - even as the number of cars coming into the city was declining.

[Danny]

Philly has, and has always had, a very different economy from Detroit's, which is the main factor. It also held onto enough of its urban middle class to keep the city from tipping into a complete slide. 3 of the reasons for that are, a large business/office community downtown that did not flee to the suburbs, a mass transit system that enables large numbers of people to get into and out of the central city, and around the core area, without a car, and the preservation of a lot of attractive historic housing, despite calls to "urban renew" it out of existence a few decades ago.

In Detroit, we never had most people working downtown, but in manufacturing facilities spread throughout the city and the area, none of our largest companies were ever headquartered downtown [[until GM's move to Ren Cen), and many of our secondary and support businesses fled to the suburbs at the first sign of problems long ago. Mass transit is of course largely non-existent, and we destroyed many of our beautiful old neighborhoods, or simply left them to rot away like Brush Park. Instead of building a walkable city like Philly, with nice transit friendly older neighborhoods and active street-level business centers, we just kept tearing stuff down so that we could park yet more cars - even as the number of cars coming into the city was declining.

Great post and I agree with your statement. The City of Brotherly Love has its urban problems and its housing stock [[ moslty New England styled row houses), but ethnic folks can deal with the every day violent crime and slum clearances. Those folks really stand up for their town and defend it with their lives.

People in Detroit couldn't get out the 'Pre Mississippian' culture as a result white and ethnic flight and leaving mostly blacks to be trapped in the urban pyschological institutions we called 'The Ghetto'.

[Ray1936]

Interesting way to tour the neighborhoods of Philadelphia is to go to Google Maps - street view and just click the little orange man on to any Philly street away from downtown. Amazing how narrow their streets are.

[ghettopalmetto]

If Philadelphia's proximity to New York and DC has had such an effect on Philly, then why does Baltimore [[35 miles from DC) still look like the Seventh Circle of Hell? For that matter, is there something so magical in the water in DC and New York that prevented their own declines? History says otherwise.

Philly does have a lot of institutions. Comparable versions of these institutions exist in Michigan, but many of them are in the suburbs. What Philly does have going for it:

*Attractive, walkable city center
*Large supply of affordable building stock [[see Jane Jacobs re: the need for old buildings)
*A Center City that hasn't been imploded to build "landscaped and lighted parking lots" and "temporary parks" on every other block.
*Decent public transit, including not only an extensive bus system, but streetcars, subway, an extensive regional rail system that reaches into New Jersey and Delaware, and a subway line that crosses into New Jersey; this includes convenient regional rail access to the airport
*Frequent Amtrak connections to the economic centers of New York, Baltimore, Wilmington, and DC

These are things that attract young, educated professionals. Employers are in turn attracted by the presence of young, educated professionals.

[cman710]

If Philadelphia's proximity to New York and DC has had such an effect on Philly, then why does Baltimore [[35 miles from DC) still look like the Seventh Circle of Hell? For that matter, is there something so magical in the water in DC and New York that prevented their own declines? History says otherwise.

Your question assumes that proximity to New York and DC would definitely make a city prosperous. That is not true. What I said is that Philadelphia has been helped by its proximity to New York and DC. Likewise, Baltimore has undoubtedly benefited from being close to DC. However, that proximity, in itself, will not guarantee prosperity. Both Baltimore and Philadelphia are better off for not being isolated cities.

For your other point, do not forget that New York and DC have experienced awful declines, particularly in the 1970s and 1980s. New York may have lost only 10% of its population in that period, but that is still over 700,000 people!

[dfunkycity]

Philly's people care about their city. Its like Detroit used to be once upon a time.

Proximity to NY and DC help but the fact that Philly is not a one horse town [[economically speaking) is why it was able to easily re-invent itself and draw people to it.

If you long for the Detroit of the 60s or 70s then by all means take a trip to philly and its like going back in time.

[Whitehouse]

Speaking about Philly, I just encountered this in my everlasting journey along the worldwide web. Detroit has more in common with Philadelphia besides declinging populations. Take a look at the Philadelphia Metropolitan Opera House. Also in a massive state of disrepair. However, this house has a few things in favour compared to the theatres in Detroit. For one, this still has a tennant in parts of the building. It was bought from the city by a chruch community in the 90's. And second, this house is placed on the list of historic places in America.

All is not lost for this old beast which was build by Roger Hammerstein I.

[MichMatters]

To explain the defining difference between Detroit and Philly: it's the economy, stupid. Philly hasn't relied on manufacturing as its bread and butter for probably over a century, now. It long since transformed itself into service center. And, yeah, it's historic role brought on by its proximity as a "cheaper NYC" surely didn't and doesn't hurt. You move Philly to where Pittsburgh is, today, and it'd have not turned out a success story, at least of these proportions. And, as others have said, proximity counts for A LOT. If Baltimore, Philly, and DC would have all developed further apart, we'd not even be talking of serious comebacks. They've fed off of each others talents and economies since their creations. That despite them having very similar social problems to Detroit [[Baltimore regularly ranks up there with, and sometimes tops, Detroit in terms of murder rate.) they manage to always come back from the bring of disaster is a testament to proximity and a diversified economy. Baltimore, in particular, is still a very rough town, but with enough of an economy to lessen the effect of the social problems.

[English]

I was just in Philadelphia for a week in November, and I will be there for a week later this month [[both trips for work). So while I can't talk about stats, I can talk about what I saw last month.

Whenever I'm out of town, if I am able, I like to read the local newspaper and watch the local evening news. Philly's news reminded me of Detroit's media in the 1980s... I watched for a half hour, and there was nothing but murder after murder. There were no human interest stories whatsoever, and the terms used to describe the criminals by the newscasters are terms I have rarely heard Detroit anchors used. [["Well, I'm glad they caught that thug.") It was an absolutely jaw-dropping experience, and unnerved me... and when you are from the D, it takes a h*ll of a lot to unnerve you.

Then there were the native Philadelphians whom I chatted with during my downtime, both professionals in my field and workers. They reminded me a lot of the folks in New Orleans that I talked to in 2004... who told me that "everybody's trying to get out of here... it's terrible here..." exactly 18 months before Katrina. Until that visit, I had NEVER heard residents of ANY city sound more desperate than we do... I kept pointing to their tourism, their historic culture, the revitalized Riverwalk, and the French Quarter... and at least a couple dozen people would either get annoyed or a little angry. "That's for the TOURISTS. There's NOTHING here for us... I'm moving to Houston or Atlanta." That next year, I thought about those conversations as I watched their city drown.

During this visit, the Philadelphians sounded the same way. Other than my visits to New Orleans, Philly remains the only American city where I haven't had to hear Detroit denigrated a single time, or listen to a single person expressing their condolences that I live there. In fact, one lady from North Philly assured me that her city *will* become Detroit in another 20 years if things continue this way. I had to assure her that no, it would not, that Detroit was a perfect storm, and no one was abandoning Philly wholesale... but she swore to me that Philly was now more violent than Detroit, and businesses were leaving, along with some regatta [[I think that's what she said) that's been there forever.

I think that the economy must be getting people down, and Philadelphia will never be Detroit [[just as PA will never be MI). However, the Philly natives assured me, to a man and a woman, that ordinary people in their metro depended on manufacturing, too... and that "we know things are bad there, but things are getting bad here, too."

The tone in this country is changing. Detroit is becoming more than the butt of jokes. We are now a national cautionary tale.

Disclaimer: all of the above are my observations from a few weeks spent in Philadelphia over the past three and a half years. Take what you like and leave the rest.