Ideas to Make over Cobo Center

[Stosh]

They call it "building the cathedral just for Easter." It's used a few times a year and takes up so much precious downtown space. I'd rather have many things there in its place: a downtown rail depot, for instance. Honestly, I would even gladly trade Cobo in a heartbeat for five or six factories that produce moderate pollution.

Absolutely, it does. Can't argue against that. However, we still need a convention facility of sorts. And barring some kind of miracle, that's it for the forseeable future.
You'll be waiting a long time for some factories, I'm thinking, and a downtown train station. I'm hoping that they ramp up the business for conventions with the new management. That might improve your outlook some.

Conservation is important, but some things just aren't worth conserving. I think Cobo is a good example: Political football, managerial disaster, white elephant, Goliath resource-sucker, and all for a week a year. But, more to your point, I think good things are often used in the defense of bad things. Take the whole "green" thing: Once any term or tactic has a sheen to it like "green" does, you can use it to push the brownest stuff out there. Those are my concerns.

Like I said above, I don't disagree. The term green is used to cover up a multitude of sins. There are ways around everything. But it's more of a statement.

[Detroitnerd]

\Like I said above, I don't disagree. The term green is used to cover up a multitude of sins. There are ways around everything. But it's more of a statement.

Damn. This amity could have been an interesting disagreement.

[Stosh]

Damn. This amity could have been an interesting disagreement.

All you have to do is look up the LEED standards. It's like a martini, just wave the vermouth cap over the top, and voila! Instant green! One needs to toughen the standards just a little..

[ghettopalmetto]

I think, more important than a green roof, the pedestrian access to Cobo--and hence it's integration with its surroundings--needs some serious improvement. The existing building reeks of fortress and doesn't play very nice with human scale.

[Detroitnerd]

I think, more important than a green roof, the pedestrian access to Cobo--and hence it's integration with its surroundings--needs some serious improvement. The existing building reeks of fortress and doesn't play very nice with human scale.

I wonder if you even can design a mammoth convention center that coexists with human scale. Is there a good example I'm missing?

[iheartthed]

I wonder if you even can design a mammoth convention center that coexists with human scale. Is there a good example I'm missing?

Honestly, Cobo is as good as any I have seen. FWIW, Cobo does do a decent job of providing pedestrian access from the street. Many of the other convention centers that I've been to in the country don't accomplish this as well.

[Stosh]

It's got all the components of being a good center. Mass transit stop, bus access, proximity to riverwalk, Hart Plaza. Parking, freeway access. Just needs to be managed and promoted correctly. Also fixed.

[ghettopalmetto]

Honestly, Cobo is as good as any I have seen. FWIW, Cobo does do a decent job of providing pedestrian access from the street. Many of the other convention centers that I've been to in the country don't accomplish this as well.

There's such a thing as "being able to walk in the door from the sidewalk", and then there's "interacting with its surroundings". The two are completely different animals.

The present incarnation of Cobo doesn't recognize that anything exists on a human [[i.e. 5'-6' high) scale. It's a colossus of a building that turns blank walls to all sides. It pays no respect to any of the surrounding buildings, the street, or the riverfront. It's just a blank box that fell to the earth from space. Where's the detailing, especially at street level???

[Detroitnerd]

The present incarnation of Cobo doesn't recognize that anything exists on a human [[i.e. 5'-6' high) scale. It's a colossus of a building that turns blank walls to all sides. It pays no respect to any of the surrounding buildings, the street, or the riverfront. It's just a blank box that fell to the earth from space. Where's the detailing, especially at street level???

I see what you're getting at. Aesthetically, it sort of turns its back on the city. [[It's almost all "back" when you get right down to it.)

I guess in New York, Javits looked more appealing, with plenty of glass and an obvious entrance. But, then again, it was on the other side of a big, seven-lane expressway.

[ghettopalmetto]

By no means do I think these are perfect examples, but I think they are definitely improvements over Cobo. Since convention center buildings are massive in scale, it's difficult to not dwarf and overrun the surrounding blocks. This is also why I'm skeptical of cities who use convention centers as "revitalization" tools, because they amount to nothing but "slum clearance" projects that deaden the street by eliminating fine-grained urban fabric in favor of a single massive facade.

First, the Washington Convention Center. The center covers six city blocks. The rear [[north) is across the street from rowhouses. The front of the building faces Mount Vernon Square. Two city streets run "through" the center. The awning, while not perfect, at least suggests that people might want to enter the building. The street in front is kept at a reasonable scale for pedestrians to cross. the facade materials were chosen to complement the city's monumental core.

http://www.mcul.org/files/cucorp/744...n%20Center.jpg

Although I think it looks like a giant Greyhound bus station, the Baltimore Convention Center isn't terrific, but note the plaza in front along Light Street. The light rail [[and Camden Station) are across Howard Street to the right of the image.

http://www.bccenter.org/downloads/im.../bcc_thumb.gif


In my opinion, the absolute best-looking convention center is the Pennsylvania Convention Center in Philadelphia, which occupies the former Reading Railroad Terminal. The center is connected to the Market East rail station [[subway, light rail, and regional rail lines) and fits in the dense, varied fabric of Center City.

http://img175.imageshack.us/i/img2514plt7.jpg/

http://exponet.theexpogroup.com/Medi...tionCenter.jpg

[Detroitnerd]

By no means do I think these are perfect examples, but I think they are definitely improvements over Cobo.

They all remind me of railroad stations. It's funny: We haven't been able to think of a better model for a large building set down in the midst of a city.

[d.mcc]

I wonder if you even can design a mammoth convention center that coexists with human scale. Is there a good example I'm missing?

Again, I direct your attention to the FieraMilano...

[Detroitnerd]

Again, I direct your attention to the FieraMilano...

Not to dispute that it isn't built on a human scale, but it seems too "monumental" to not detract from an urban environment. [[The kind of building that demands you view it from a distance, usually, in this country, across a parking lot.) And isn't that just plunked down in the middle of a highway intersection, not a city?

[iheartthed]

There's such a thing as "being able to walk in the door from the sidewalk", and then there's "interacting with its surroundings". The two are completely different animals.

The present incarnation of Cobo doesn't recognize that anything exists on a human [[i.e. 5'-6' high) scale. It's a colossus of a building that turns blank walls to all sides. It pays no respect to any of the surrounding buildings, the street, or the riverfront. It's just a blank box that fell to the earth from space. Where's the detailing, especially at street level???

Well, I'm not saying that Cobo is perfect. I agree that much of the interior convention space is walled off from the surrounding area. But as far as convention centers being integrated into the surrounding area, from a pedestrian level... You could do a LOT worse than Cobo. I've been to a few convention centers around the country, and few are as accessible from the street as is Cobo.

Most centers have large setbacks from the street and/or are surrounded by large roads/highways/parking structures that make it inconvenient to access by foot. Cobo is set right up against the street. Ironically, it is nearly the complete antithesis of what its neighbor the Ren Cen used to be in terms of pedestrian accessible.

[Stosh]

I like the looks of this one,way smaller than Cobo by far. But scale is OK.


The Hynes Convention Center


An all-inclusive Boston convention center, the Hynes Convention Center is integrated into the historic and shopping heart of the city. Recipient of multiple planner's choice awards, the Hynes offers:

• 176,480 square feet of flexible exhibit and auditorium space
• 38 meeting rooms
• 24,544 square foot ballroom
• Technical advantages including wired and wireless Internet access throughout

In addition to being an ideally located, all-inclusive, all-weather convention center, the Hynes is also uniquely well-connected, attached to over 3,100 hotel rooms and two upscale malls.
Nice flash animation details the center. Shit no wonder we can't compete.

http://www.advantageboston.com/Flash...ynes-tour.html

[ghettopalmetto]

Well, I'm not saying that Cobo is perfect. I agree that much of the interior convention space is walled off from the surrounding area. But as far as convention centers being integrated into the surrounding area, from a pedestrian level... You could do a LOT worse than Cobo. I've been to a few convention centers around the country, and few are as accessible from the street as is Cobo.

I don't know how you can do worse than this:

[Detroitnerd]

I don't know how you can do worse than this:

For one, Javits is worse:

http://www.babble.com/CS/blogs/strol...its_Center.jpg

[iheartthed]

I like the looks of this one,way smaller than Cobo by far. But scale is OK.


The Hynes Convention Center

An all-inclusive Boston convention center, the Hynes Convention Center is integrated into the historic and shopping heart of the city. Recipient of multiple planner's choice awards, the Hynes offers:

• 176,480 square feet of flexible exhibit and auditorium space
• 38 meeting rooms
• 24,544 square foot ballroom
• Technical advantages including wired and wireless Internet access throughout

In addition to being an ideally located, all-inclusive, all-weather convention center, the Hynes is also uniquely well-connected, attached to over 3,100 hotel rooms and two upscale malls.

I've been to the Hynes Center. I'm actually unsure of the human scale compared to Cobo, because I never entered the Hynes center from the street [[my hotel was directly connected to the convention center). The pictures that I Google'd do seem to show that the main entrance is scaled well to the street. However, the side of the building closest to my hotel was surrounded by large streets and had no pedestrian access. It was a lot like the areas of Cobo along Congress, west of Washington Blvd where it's just a big wall with entrances/exits to the parking structure.

[Stosh]

I've been to the Hynes Center. I'm actually unsure of the human scale compared to Cobo, because I never entered the Hynes center from the street [[my hotel was directly connected to the convention center). The pictures that I Google'd do seem to show that the main entrance is scaled well to the street. However, the side of the building closest to my hotel was surrounded by large streets and had no pedestrian access. It was a lot like the areas of Cobo along Congress, west of Washington Blvd where it's just a big wall with entrances/exits to the parking structure.

Well, it's walkable, in any event. A convention center caters to the convention goer, generally not the passer by. Connected to the hotel as well, a plus. See above post for the flash presentation for this center.

[ghettopalmetto]

Well, it's walkable, in any event. A convention center caters to the convention goer, generally not the passer by. Connected to the hotel as well, a plus. See above post for the flash presentation for this center.

A building, especially a LARGE and PUBLIC building, still needs to respect its surroundings. Cobo gives a giant "fuck you" to the surrounding blocks.

[iheartthed]

I don't know how you can do worse than this:

It's a bit unfair to judge the complex by that side... You should traverse the perimeter of the building along Washington Blvd. Very few convention centers in this country are that well scaled to the street.

[ghettopalmetto]

It's a bit unfair to judge the complex by that side... You should traverse the perimeter of the building along Washington Blvd. Very few convention centers in this country are that well scaled to the street.

Would you rather I judge Cobo by the side that backs up to Joe Louis Arena and the Lodge Freeway? Or the side that presents a blank, forboding wall to the Detroit River? Oh, you mean the side where the main entrance sits over an 8-lane freeway tunnel, right?

I think some decent examples of street-friendly convention centers have been presented here. You seem to imply that, "Oh well, nobody else has done it, so why should we even try it in Detroit?" It's almost as if you're excusing the apathy of the design.

[Detroitnerd]

Would you rather I judge Cobo by the side that backs up to Joe Louis Arena and the Lodge Freeway? Or the side that presents a blank, forboding wall to the Detroit River? Oh, you mean the side where the main entrance sits over an 8-lane freeway tunnel, right?

It's the most urban-friendly side of Cobo. 'Nuff said.

[iheartthed]

Would you rather I judge Cobo by the side that backs up to Joe Louis Arena and the Lodge Freeway? Or the side that presents a blank, forboding wall to the Detroit River? Oh, you mean the side where the main entrance sits over an 8-lane freeway tunnel, right?

I think some decent examples of street-friendly convention centers have been presented here. You seem to imply that, "Oh well, nobody else has done it, so why should we even try it in Detroit?" It's almost as if you're excusing the apathy of the design.

I don't get your point. The entrance to Cobo is on Washington Blvd. That isn't an 8 lane freeway tunnel. Who cares if the freeway goes underneath it?! The entrance to Cobo is on Washington Blvd. Which is a 4 lane boulevard.

My point isn't that Cobo couldn't be done better. In fact, I've said at the very beginning of our back and forth that it could be improved. But as far as convention centers that are scaled well into the street, Cobo is one of the best examples that exists in the U.S. It's a bit dishonest not to acknowledge that much...

[ghettopalmetto]

And the pedestrian-friendly side of Cobo allows people to access it from where?

http://images.thecarconnection.com/l...00169362_l.jpg

There's the three-lane Jefferson service drive, the six-lane freeway tunnel, adjacent to which is three more lanes of asphalt, followed by a one lane driveway with parking, followed by--more asphalt. The face of Cobo serves to wall off the whole asphalt mess, disconnecting one from the remainder of the city.

Across the street you have the Pontchartrain, designed in the fortress-on-a-pedestal motif, and the fire station. To where is one supposed to walk from here--the Arena?

This is good urbanism? Without the "removed blocks" and use of glass over the doors, you wouldn't even have a clue how to get into the building! http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...247.98,,0,-5.2