Global warming; facts getting in the way of progress.

[3WC]

d.mcc: I don't quibble with your views on the matter as expressed above.

I believe, however, that radical environmentalists are their own worst enemies. Or, will be soon. It's like everything else in life, like it or not, but the issue will eventually boil down to money.

I think sooner or later that people will focus in on the fact that some environmentalists [[perhaps many or most) think it's far more important to protect the spotted owl than to defend the livelihood of hundreds of loggers who will become unemployed. Or, the eco-nazis including Pelosi in CA who would put hundreds of farmers out of business because they think agriculture is not a worthy use of their local water resources because it would result in the destruction of some snail-darter type fish. I predict a major backlash against environmentalists in general because of the many who put minor species ahead of people.

There have been a least 4 million species which have come and gone on earth without any impact by humans. [[I used to follow that stuff.)

Environmentalists are among the special interest groups to which refer above.

There should be a balance and there is none.

[d.mcc]

d.mcc: I don't quibble with your views on the matter as expressed above.

I believe, however, that radical environmentalists are their own worst enemies. Or, will be soon. It's like everything else in life, like it or not, but the issue will eventually boil down to money.

I think sooner or later that people will focus in on the fact that some environmentalists [[perhaps many or most) think it's far more important to protect the spotted owl than to defend the livelihood of hundreds of loggers who will become unemployed. Or, the eco-nazis including Pelosi in CA who would put hundreds of farmers out of business because they think agriculture is not a worthy use of their local water resources because it would result in the destruction of some snail-darter type fish. I predict a major backlash against environmentalists in general because of the many who put minor species ahead of people.

There have been a least 4 million species which have come and gone on earth without any impact by humans. [[I used to follow that stuff.)

Environmentalists are among the special interest groups to which refer above.

There should be a balance and there is none.

Complete agreement. It's sad because I am definitely part of the green movement. Taken the courses, have the certifications, worked on the projects.

It always boils down to money, as the US is one of the few countries where the citizens don't really care about the environment, but their bank account is priority number one. The way I see it, if I personally want lower CO2 emissions, I don't come to the table with that as my argument. It's all about presenting cost analysis and reminding the client that hey, as a side benefit you can say you are helping the environment. We both get what we want, and I know in the long run I have done my part to reduce consumption and emissions yet again.

It seems like an underhanded approach, and I wish I could be more straight forward and lobby to my client that they should do it for the environment and clean air and water, but I have learned how to advance my beliefs and policies while still benefiting my clients.

[ziggyselbin]

Here is my question and I am sure others as well. What do the Chinese, Indians, and other emerging nations have to do with all this? I am very skeptical of the U.S. and developed nations being scapegoated when these other countries pollute and do whatever they like. I likely sound callow and ignorant. But these emerging places want to drive cars, they want all the luxuries we have known, and I don't see how they should not.

[ccbatson]

Balance? IT IS A HUGE SCAM...what is there to balance? Those perpetrating the deception should get nothing accept fines and possibly jail time for fraud and theft.

[Alfie1a]

Why is it that you hardly ever hear anything these days about deforestation? Is it because there's no money in it for those that would like to tax us on everything? What about population growth?

[ccbatson]

Also debunked myths...the alarmists gave up on those....for now

[d.mcc]

Balance? IT IS A HUGE SCAM...what is there to balance? Those perpetrating the deception should get nothing accept fines and possibly jail time for fraud and theft.

What fraud and theft is being committed? Do you have any expertise in the matter? If not, you should stick to what you know, which is nothing.

[d.mcc]

Why is it that you hardly ever hear anything these days about deforestation? Is it because there's no money in it for those that would like to tax us on everything? What about population growth?

Deforestation is still a huge problem right now. Its also the type of forests being removed that is of the problem. Boreal and Tropical Rain forests are extremely important to the O2-CO2 cycle, and their removal is extremely detrimental to climate stabilization.

[ziggyselbin]

A credible source............



http://features.csmonitor.com/politi...arming-debate/

[d.mcc]

For a small scale example of how drastically man can alter his environment, look to Easter Island as an example

[elganned]

Also debunked myths...the alarmists gave up on those....for now

Overpopulation is not a myth, nor has it been "debunked". Your distaste for all things "environmental" has led you into error--again.

Malthus is still alive and well, and coming to get us. We've only managed to postpone it, that's all.

[Mikeg]

One week ago in the wake of the leaked e-mails, British "climate change activist" George Monbiot was mocking the "climate change deniers" with a silly "Knights Carbonic" piece on his personal blog.

Today in his Guardian.uk blog, he's whistling a much different tune. Here's some of his comments about the leaked e-mails:

"Pretending that this isn't a real crisis isn't going to make it go away. Nor is an attempt to justify the emails with technicalities. We'll be able to get past this only by grasping reality, apologising where appropriate and demonstrating that it cannot happen again."

"One of the most damaging emails was sent by the head of the climatic research unit, Phil Jones. He wrote 'I can't see either of these papers being in the next IPCC report. Kevin and I will keep them out somehow - even if we have to redefine what the peer-review literature is!' "

"I feel desperately sorry for him [Jones]: he must be walking through hell. But there is no helping it; he has to go, and the longer he leaves it, the worse it will get. He has a few days left in which to make an honourable exit."

"There is a word for the apparent repeated attempts to prevent disclosure revealed in these emails: unscientific."

[Mikeg]

George Monbiot isn't the only one who has done a "180" in the past week. From Telegraph.co.uk:

Climategate: University of East Anglia U-turn in climate change row

Leading British scientists at the University of East Anglia, who were accused of manipulating climate change data - dubbed Climategate - have agreed to publish their figures in full.

The U-turn by the university follows a week of controversy after the emergence of hundreds of leaked emails, "stolen" by hackers and published online, triggered claims that the academics had massaged statistics........

Prof Jones, who has refused to quit despite calls even from within the green movement, said last week in a statement issued through University of East Anglia, "My colleagues and I accept that some of the published emails do not read well. I regret any upset or confusion caused as a result. Some were clearly written in the heat of the moment, others use colloquialisms frequently used between close colleagues."

Sounds like Professor Jones is going to "hang tough".

Meanwhile in the United States mainstream press, it's "crickets chirping" except for this editorial slamming the "deniers" while reluctantly coming to the same conclusion as Monbiot:

Washington Post: It's not the climate; it's the coverup - Scientists have the evidence on their side but toss the unbelievers a bone.

Update: I finally found this New York Times article by Andrew Revkin that ran on page A8 of their Nov. 27th edition:

Hacked E-Mail Data Prompts Calls for Changes in Climate Research

Andrew Revkin is the NYT's "global environment" reporter who also writes their "Dot Earth Blog", which covers issues on "climate change, the environment and sustainability". The following exchange between reporter Revkin and Penn State professor Michael Mann appears in the leaked e-mails:

Revkin:
"I'm going to blog on this as it relates to the value of the peer review process and not on the merits of the mcintyre et al attacks. Peer review, for all its imperfections, is where the herky-jerky process of knowledge building happens, would you agree?
Mann:
"Re, your point at the end--you've taken the words out of my mouth."

Reporter Revkin is very good at taking the words out of the mouths of professors Mann and Jones.

[ccbatson]

Seriously...this is a huge and positive development for regular folks that we need to take full advantage of. How so? Push back punitive taxation based on the myth, unfetter domestic energy exploration and create opportunity for economic growth via affordable energy driven by market forces, elimination of corporate extortion payments to the likes of Al Gore, energizing the auto industry to produce cars that people want to buy, and shrink government away from it's socialistic growth. THIS IS WORTH TRILLIONS everybody.

BTW...to the alarmists towing the party line for years...I/we told ya so.

[elganned]

Trust you to conflate several separate issues into one big cluster-f**k, Cc.

"unfetter domestic energy exploration and create opportunity for economic growth via affordable energy driven by market forces"

What part of the following statement by 3WC didn't you understand? "There continue to be discussions/disputes about when the "peak" will occur worldwide, although it is undisputed that many producing countries, such as the U.S., hit their peaks long ago."

elimination of corporate extortion payments to the likes of Al Gore

What corporate extortion payments have been made to Al Gore? Care to elaborate/substantiate?

, energizing the auto industry to produce cars that people want to buy,

And just how do you propose "energizing" the auto industry? A large segment of the auto industry already produces cars that people want to buy--just not Detroit, or at least not in the last twenty years. The Ford Fusion may mark the beginning of the comeback, but it will be a few years. In any case the Big 3 [[actually the Big 1 and Little 2) are private enterprises and should energize themselves. I don't see that we have any input there.

and shrink government away from it's socialistic growth.

Merely another repetition of your hackneyed slogan.

[oladub]

What corporate extortion payments have been made to Al Gore? Care to elaborate/substantiate?

In case anyone was wondering what happened to stimulus money and why it failed. A car company backed by former Vice President Al Gore has just gotten a $529 million U.S. government loan to help build a hybrid sports car, the 'Karma', in Finland that will sell for about $89,000.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125383160812639013.html

Al Gore, the former US vice president, could become the world's first carbon billionaire after investing heavily in green energy companies.

[Rideron]

With trillions at stake in cap & trade; global warmists are frantically twisting and turning now to hide the fact that the Emperor has no clothes.

Quoting Carol Browner: "I'm sticking with the 2,500 scientists. These people have been studying this issue for a very long time and agree this problem is real."
The problem is that the "2,500 scientists" she refers to were relying on faked data and models.

Garbage in, garbage out.

[rb336]

funny

no one is twisting and turning -- except the denialists. They are so desperate, so bereft of ANY factual answer to the mountains of evidence of ACC [[anthropogenic climate change) that they are now hanging their hat on a mere turn of phrase that means ... nothing. what a truly pathetic bunch

[Mikeg]

" the mountains of evidence"

Climate change data dumped
From The Sunday Times
November 29, 2009
by Jonathan Leake, Environment Editor

Scientists at the University of East Anglia [[UEA) have admitted throwing away much of the raw temperature data on which their predictions of global warming are based.

It means that other academics are not able to check basic calculations said to show a long-term rise in temperature over the past 150 years......

[rb336]

try reading the whole thing.

The data were gathered from weather stations around the world and then adjusted to take account of variables in the way they were collected. The revised figures were kept, but the originals — stored on paper and magnetic tape — were dumped to save space when the CRU moved to a new building.

nothing nefarious there whatsoever. the raw data can STILL be collected from the various weather stations. yet again, much ado about nothing.

btw -- the data in question was from over 20 years ago.

[ziggyselbin]

try reading the whole thing.

The data were gathered from weather stations around the world and then adjusted to take account of variables in the way they were collected. The revised figures were kept, but the originals — stored on paper and magnetic tape — were dumped to save space when the CRU moved to a new building.

nothing nefarious there whatsoever. the raw data can STILL be collected from the various weather stations. yet again, much ado about nothing.

btw -- the data in question was from over 20 years ago.

I don't know if the climate is changing. I don't know if it is if humans are the cause. I do know it is amusing to watch the attempts to rationalize mitigate and generally bullshit about these emails. It aint always the content but the intent. If it is much ado about nothing then why the cynicism on the part of the emails to begin with? Sorry it aint on the up and up.

[rb336]

what cynicism?

[3WC]

There's an interesting article in the WSJ today. I don't know how to post it. Perhaps someone will.

Basically, the Indian government has completed a survey of its over 10,000 glaciers and announced the results. Large numbers of glaciers which have been receeding are now stabilized or expanding.

The result is that the stabilized and expanding glaciers generate substantially less glacial melt and many vilages are going through drought conditions because they depend on glacial melt for their daily water.

It won't be long [[maybe hundreds or a couple of thousand years) before the next series of worldwide ice ages, folks.

Stock up on Polartec while you can.

[Stosh]

Said the Wall Street Journal. Doesn't that ring a bell?

[ziggyselbin]

what cynicism?

Def #2 and#3



http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cynical