OMG! Somebody finally gets it!

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "The folks who created Google, Amazon, Yahoo, Mosaic, Microsoft, et. al. didn't mine it, mill it, harvest it or chop it down, yet they create things of real value."

Things of real value? They are nothing more than bits of information on servers. In the real world, they are nothing more than a means of manipulating information for profit. We can't build an economy on information alone.

It's all fallacy, look at Google, how many people do they employ? How many Google's can there be? Google is successful because people that make/made things collect[[ed) money from their work and buy/bought things on the internet. They need[[ed) Google to find them.

[[I added the past tense because it will apply to 1 in 7 people reading this locally. )

[ziggyselbin]

this is relevant and worth reading..........




http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070430/greider

[English]

Save your Amens for Sunday. Y'all look at our economy as something of fixed size, a zero-sum game. Why can't we have tens of millions more highly-educated, high-value-added service jobs? You think it can't be done?

For my response, please refer to Sstashmoo's post. Management ought to always remember that famous WWII quote by Niemoller...

"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me."

The same people who were defending our trade policies and union busting back when the jobs of my friends' fathers and mothers were shipped lock and barrel south of the border and over the Pacific... isn't it funny that they're now the first to squeal about someone's H-1B visa status? Or will whine about illegal immigrants/undocumented workers?

[Det_ard]

It's obvious you don't get it. The researchers who develop medicines are part of the manufacturing chain. All R&D that yields a tangible product is. That's why they have the protection of patents, at least in the cooperative countries.

So then the dividing line is between fundamental research of the type done in academia and in places like GM Research Labs or the old Xerox Palo Alto Research Center, and the application of that basic research by development and design engineers? I don't see a sharp line, I see a continuum.

Where's the dividing line? Two primary things to consider, in my opinion: dependency on disposable income and relation to the underlying foundational agricultural/manufacturing/related transportation system.

Please flesh this out a bit more, I don't get it.

Follow the money to its roots - it will always end at the most rudimentary industries.

But if the R&D people are part of the manufacturing chain, what about the services that support, facilitate or permit the activities in the manufacturing chain to occur? For example, payroll processing services, in-house corporate attorneys, outside counsel, the venture capitalists who funded the manufacturing start-up, the consultants who came in to implement the ERP system, the I-bankers who floated stock and bond offerings to fund expansion, the commodities brokers who trade iron ore futures that the company uses to hedge against price volatility, etc., etc., etc.

I agree there's a lot more to manufacturing than being on the plant floor. Sometimes the desire to split everything into "service" or "manufacturing" seems a bit artificial. I guess my point is that there are "service" components to business activity that are as important [[and well-compensated) as the "manufacturing" components. Maybe because we're in a manufacturing town we tend to minimize the service jobs, as they're all Wal-Mart or burger flipping jobs.

[Sstashmoo]

The point you're missing is, without manufacturing, no services are needed.

[Det_ard]

Things of real value? They are nothing more than bits of information on servers. In the real world, they are nothing more than a means of manipulating information for profit. We can't build an economy on information alone.

Alone, of course not. I don't think anyone's talking about building an economy on information alone. But to deny the inherent value in what you term "bits of information on servers" is silly. If you don't like my examples, choose any software or web company you wish. Is CAD/CAM software simply bits? Do you see no value in CNC and PLC software and the companies that made them? Manufacturers worldwide value the software enough to spends billions every year on it.

It's all fallacy, look at Google, how many people do they employ? How many Google's can there be? Google is successful because people that make/made things collect[[ed) money from their work and buy/bought things on the internet. They need[[ed) Google to find them.

If people employed is your measure of worth, consider the stats below from the BLS

% of jobs by sector of economy [[2000)
Agriculture 2.4%
Goods 18.8%
Services 62.5%
Government 16.2%

[lilpup]

How are the service sector and the government financially supported?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Is CAD/CAM software simply bits? Do you see no value in CNC and PLC software and the companies that made them?"

They are used in manufacturing, without manufacturing, they would be worthless. Would you buy a cad suite if you have nothing to draw?

[Det_ard]

The point you're missing is, without manufacturing, no services are needed.

OK, the point you're missing is that US manufacturing output keeps trending up, even as # of manufacturing jobs keeps trending down. We [[the US) is still making stuff. But, just like with agriculture, the number of people required to do so decreases as productivity increases and low-value manufacturing moves offshore.

See the three graphs in the UM-Flint Econ prof's blog at http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2009/08/...rker-hits.html

[Det_ard]

How are the service sector and the government financially supported?

Since manufacturing GDP is less than 20% of total GDP, it's not primarily manufacturing doing the heavy lifting.

[Det_ard]

Quote: "Is CAD/CAM software simply bits? Do you see no value in CNC and PLC software and the companies that made them?"

They are used in manufacturing, without manufacturing, they would be worthless.

And without agriculture, we'd all die and manufacturing would be worthless. So agriculture must be the most important. Or any other way you want to arrange the circular reasoning. The world doesn't revolve around manufacturing any more than it revolves around agriculture [[or services, or government, it's all intertwined). It's too simplistic to try to put manufacturing at the center like some Ptolemaic system.

[lilpup]

Since manufacturing GDP is less than 20% of total GDP, it's not primarily manufacturing doing the heavy lifting.

Yes, it is, because it's what supports the other sectors. Just as shown above manufacturing creates opportunities and supports the other jobs. This is what's called the 'job multiplier' for an industry. Auto manufacturing has one of the highest, if not the highest, jobs multiplier.

Is manufacturing efficiency going up? Yes, it is. Is unemployment going up? Yes, it is. Is consumer spending tightened? Yes, it is [[consumer economy imperiled). Is the US manufacturing what it purchases? No, it isn't [[massive trade deficit, primarily with China). Does the US manufacture the full variety of items it used to? No, it doesn't.

Could the US once again manufacture the breadth of goods it used to and keep consumers' spending in the country? Yes, it could.

[lilpup]

And without agriculture, we'd all die and manufacturing would be worthless. So agriculture must be the most important. Or any other way you want to arrange the circular reasoning. The world doesn't revolve around manufacturing any more than it revolves around agriculture [[or services, or government, it's all intertwined). It's too simplistic to try to put manufacturing at the center like some Ptolemaic system.

No one arguing in favor of manufacturing has been advocating the elimination of services or government, unlike others arguing that it's feasible to eliminate manufacturing.

[Det_ard]

No one arguing in favor of manufacturing has been advocating the elimination of services or government, unlike others arguing that it's feasible to eliminate manufacturing.

Who's arguing that? That sounds like a strawman to me.

[lilpup]

Who's arguing that? That sounds like a strawman to me.

It would since you obviously disagree with the premise that manufacturing and manufacturing jobs are vitally important to the US economy.

[dharma4313]

I don't want to get into any counter-post ping-pong, all I'm saying is that a nation that cannot produce heavy industry from its own abundant resources is just as compromised as a nation that cannot grow its own food. If this was 1941, we'd be in the embarrassing position of converting "Jap" [[racial slur used with the most narrowly and delicately applied editorial discretion) transplants into an ironic sort of "Arsenal of Democracy". Our Mitsubishis shooting down their Mitsubishis? Give me a break.

[Retroit]

This will give you some idea of how important manufacturing is:



"employers" means companies that employ people
"non-employers" means self-employed individuals
[[source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Se...nemployers.gif )