Heir wants Eliza Howell Park back

[Novine]

"But in Birmingham, would it ever get that far?"

No and I don't think any sane person in Birmingham would suggest that the solution would be to give back the park to the heirs for development.

The current state of the park is bad. Detroit lacks the resources to maintain any of its parks. But unlike most parks, much of the park can remain in a natural state without doing any significant harm to the surrounding area.

[Detroitnerd]

Well, bailey, I think that post identifies the problem. Call it "suburban exceptionalism." In any event, that seems to be what underlies your "cover arguments." Why should we who live in the city listen to the frantic "advice" of those who hold it in such total contempt?

See what I mean?

[Det_ard]

Ahhh, this is why Detroit can't have Nice Things.

[jackie5275]

[quote=Novine;91226

So? Fix the problem of access. It's not that difficult and doesn't cost a lot of money.[/quote]
If the City can't afford to mow the grass there, how can they afford to fix the access problem? They can't.

[Detroitnerd]

True, the city is basically broke. But the city has never been what I'd call particularly ... "creative." When other Detroit possessions have been threatened, public support groups have stepped in, whether it's FOBC, DZS, FOBI, etc. This may be just the impetus for this sort of creativity, as illustrated by the call for action we've already seen in this post.

Well, friends, where do I make my donation of labor and money?

[econ expat]

If someone came forward with a plan to put high price housing and commercial development on Belle Isle, imagine the outcry. Well face it, its not exactly well maintained these days either.But the park could be restored to its past glory, maybe even better. The parkland is still there. And its doubtful any serious planners would consider giving up THAT parkland that cannot be replaced.

Same with Eliza Howell. And it was not 'always a bad place'. I went to picnics with family and my church in the 80's. There was a problem with drug traffic there, but that can be changed, more police patrols. Cass Lake and Hines Park had similar problems in the past.

Access- a 'park' does not necessarily have to have full vehicle access, if it is more of a 'nature preserve'. Or did this developer's family specify that Eliza Howell was to be 100% playground. [[150+ acres?)

[bailey]

Well, bailey, I think that post identifies the problem. Call it "suburban exceptionalism." In any event, that seems to be what underlies your "cover arguments." Why should we who live in the city listen to the frantic "advice" of those who hold it in such total contempt?

See what I mean?

I have no agenda, contempt or underlying arguments. My only purpose is to point out that the land that makes up the park was a conditional gift to the city. The condition being that the city maintain the park as a park. It has been alleged the city has failed at that task for going on 20 years...and by yours and other's call to action...it is at least tacitly acknowledged by pretty much anyone, the city has failed to satisfy the condition for it's continued ownership. The heir[[s), due to the city's failure are seeking to re-enter the property.

The ONLY entity in this scenario that failed to perform is the City. The only entity that can cure the defect is the city. For the fees the city will pay in fighting the heir, they can cure the problem. Will they?

[jackie5275]

Always dangerous activity there? My memories of Eliza Howell come from back in the '70s, when I used to hang out with some Telegraph cruisers and hotrodders. That park was the place to hang out for the whole Brightmoor/Rosedale/west side of Detroit part of the crowd. Sort of like Hines Park, but in the city. We generally smoked some dope, drank a little beer, played some frisbee, played some music, opened some hoods and talked cars, and pretty much just chilled out and partied there. Later on at night when the lights went down we maybe got it on with the girls a bit there, but that certainly wasn't what I'd call a dangerous activity.

Is this what the purpose of a park should be? A place for stoners to get high, listen to rock music, and party? That kind of activity is what made a big push for Wayne County Sheriff deps to be patrolling Hines Park to clean up that kind of activity. It certainly doesn't make for a family friendly atmosphere. My idea of a park is where folks can play sports, have a barbeque, do some nature studies, do some fishing if available, let their kids play on the play ground, sit & read a book, etc. like at Bishop Park in Wyandotte. The family centered activities are for what parks should be. Large groups of folks partying only intimidates and discourages others from using a park.

[Detroitnerd]

I have no agenda, contempt or underlying arguments. My only purpose is to point out that the land that makes up the park was a conditional gift to the city. The condition being that the city maintain the park as a park. It has been alleged the city has failed at that task for going on 20 years...and by yours and other's call to action...it is at least tacitly acknowledged by pretty much anyone, the city has failed to satisfy the condition for it's continued ownership. The heir[[s), due to the city's failure are seeking to re-enter the property.

The ONLY entity in this scenario that failed to perform is the City. The only entity that can cure the defect is the city. For the fees the city will pay in fighting the heir, they can cure the problem. Will they?

Haha. You must be an attorney.

"If you don't have the law, you argue the facts; if you don't have the facts, you argue the law."

[Detroitnerd]

Is this what the purpose of a park should be? A place for stoners to get high, listen to rock music, and party? That kind of activity is what made a big push for Wayne County Sheriff deps to be patrolling Hines Park to clean up that kind of activity. It certainly doesn't make for a family friendly atmosphere. My idea of a park is where folks can play sports, have a barbeque, do some nature studies, do some fishing if available, let their kids play on the play ground, sit & read a book, etc. like at Bishop Park in Wyandotte. The family centered activities are for what parks should be. Large groups of folks partying only intimidates and discourages others from using a park.

No the purpose of a park is to generate revenue. That's why all Detroit parks must now have concrete pads for racing, and big-box stores for shopping.

Screw it. I'd rather see people smoking hash and playing basketball. You know: Like you do in Milan, Italy.

[detroitsgwenivere]

Is this what the purpose of a park should be? A place for stoners to get high, listen to rock music, and party? That kind of activity is what made a big push for Wayne County Sheriff deps to be patrolling Hines Park to clean up that kind of activity. It certainly doesn't make for a family friendly atmosphere. My idea of a park is where folks can play sports, have a barbeque, do some nature studies, do some fishing if available, let their kids play on the play ground, sit & read a book, etc. like at Bishop Park in Wyandotte. The family centered activities are for what parks should be. Large groups of folks partying only intimidates and discourages others from using a park.

It makes me ill when church nuts and soccor moms lay claim to every park in existance. Im sorry but there has to be a place for normal young people to hang and have a good time. And how is it that people listening to rock music, smokin a joint[[discreetly) and partying doesn't make for a family friendly atmosphere? Like all of us who do these things are just out to corrupt your kids as they play on the swings. Give me a break. My favorite memories as a little kid were hanging out with my parents at picnics where all of those things were taking place. Now I'm an honors student, so it must not be as bad as you make out to be. Take your kids to a different park if it so offends your fragile sensibilities.

[Bearinabox]

Is this what the purpose of a park should be? A place for stoners to get high, listen to rock music, and party? That kind of activity is what made a big push for Wayne County Sheriff deps to be patrolling Hines Park to clean up that kind of activity. It certainly doesn't make for a family friendly atmosphere. My idea of a park is where folks can play sports, have a barbeque, do some nature studies, do some fishing if available, let their kids play on the play ground, sit & read a book, etc. like at Bishop Park in Wyandotte. The family centered activities are for what parks should be. Large groups of folks partying only intimidates and discourages others from using a park.

One of the great things about a park, especially a huge park like Eliza Howell, is that it can be simultaneously used by so many different people for so many different things. I don't see where it's productive or beneficial to lay down edicts about who can use parks and for what purpose.

[bailey]

Haha. You must be an attorney.

"If you don't have the law, you argue the facts; if you don't have the facts, you argue the law."

And when you don't have the law or the facts, you pound the table...which is the only thing the CoD can do here.

[scuola]

My last comment is that reading this post makes it clear why Detroit cannot put it's problems behind it. It doesn't want to. This isn't just about one park on the far edge of the city named Eliza something something. It's about an old way of thinking. By letting someone build a big box store here, Detroit is "giving up" a treasure. That's the old way of thinking. But the right way to think about it is that when desperate times come [[and they have for Detroit for decades) it's time to prioritize and put what you have on the line so that you can concentrate your efforts on what needs to be done--and do THAT exceedingly well. Focus on two regional parks--maybe Belle Isle and Palmer Park for instance.

[jt1]

Who is up for a clean the park day? Maybe people from the Greening of Detroit can help.

If nothing else it would be humorous to hear a response from this gentleman is the park grass is cut, and the park looks a little nicer.

[Detroitnerd]

Heck, OK. I'd be up for it.

[jtf1972]

Who is up for a clean the park day? Maybe people from the Greening of Detroit can help.

If nothing else it would be humorous to hear a response from this gentleman is the park grass is cut, and the park looks a little nicer.

It would be nice if he could pass by in his Mercedes during it too.

[EastsideAl]

Is this what the purpose of a park should be? A place for stoners to get high, listen to rock music, and party?...

My intent was to bring up my memories of the place [[after someone said it was always trash-filled and dangerous) and to convey that it was a pretty mellow scene in those days. Certainly not a dangerous or scary one. And also to make it clear that I have actual experience that the park was used quite a bit by someone other than heavy drug users, prostitutes, and hoodlums. I also spent time there working on homework, taking pictures, and writing, but that isn't very interesting. Otherwise, we were just doing what teenagers in the '70s did, at least here in Detroit. In fact, who here under the age of 65 didn't hang out and do those things? Not many, I would suspect.

[EastsideAl]

If the guy wants to build a big box store or some other commercial venture let him go get some land and do it. It's not like the city doesn't contain enough empty parcels, even along and near that stretch of Telegraph. I see no reason for us to give up our parkland, no matter how ill-maintained it may be at the moment, just because this guy wants to leverage his dead relatives in order to lower his overhead.

[detroitsgwenivere]

I swung by the park today, as I do every few weeks, and happened to pull in as Kenneth Cheyne was pulling out. I tried to flag him down to talk but he kept going [[he probably mistook me for a prostitute). I did however speak to Brad Edwards [[fox2) and told him that there are a few of us who do routinely patrol the park, and attempt to pick up trash,etc. He told me that if anyone is serious about attempting to clean up Howell to give him a call. I really hope that I am able to take him up on his offer. The park's drive and parking spaces are in pretty bad shape, but the damage here is not unreversable. As I posted before, I believe that all we'd have to do is clean it up to make this guy go away. Contrary to what some other posters here think, this park is quite a beauty, reminds me of the safari with the grass and spread out trees. Whoever wrote about the natural topography was absolutely correct, especially if you venture out of the park into north Brightmoor, along Iliad and Ridge streets. And the bigbox retail theory? It's not happening. There are 4 abandoned gas stations within a half mile of that park on Telegraph ALONE. And that section of Redford isn't lookin so hot these days either.

[reddog289]

As a kid my Uncle would take the dog for a walk in that park but only early in the day, He said you don't wanna go here later. I would admit it was like what I had seen in the 70's with people hanging out and all that, But I was too young to understand that time in the parks history. I thought it was just a good place to walk the dog.
I think that any "Big Box" retail would be better off on Telegraph, not where the park sits.As stated there are a few sections of that strech in Detroit/ Redford that could use a redo.
My thinking would lead to the removal of the rusting playground equipment, the crumbling parking, Etc, and no vehicular acess.And call it a nature trail park.
I don't see the city doing anything in the near future to keep up the place and I don't see the sense in putting up a big retail/ residential project off the beaten path in these times as just a waste of concrete,steel and money.

[jackie5275]

First of all to detroitsgwenivere, I am not a church nut and I am way far from being a soccer mom. I also don't have fragile sensibilities. Second to bearinabox, I'm not laying down edicts about park usage. I'm just trying to use an example of law abiding activities for which parks can be used. The posts before mine were talking about what kind of current activities are going on in the park. ESAl talked about partying there and likened it to activities in Hines Park, which for a time was quite problematic. Some of those issues had to be resolved by WCSO patrolling Hines Park. Yes, I know full well that parks are prime gathering spots for partiers. Always have been, always will, but you get to a point where partying is the only activity going on there non-partiers won't go to a park because they don't want to be around the partying.
But it really doesn't matter anyway because the City won't take care of this park and the heir who's suing is going to face a long legal battle during which the park will continue to deteriorate and be a place for illegal activity.

[rooms222]

I lived for many years two blocks from the Fenkell entrance to Rouge Park. One daughter learned to drive there. My kids enjoyed playing on the new and old equipment in the north end around 2002-4 and I think the park should remain a park. I hope the City of Detroit puts forth a plan to better maintain it, or maybe it could be given to Metroparks or Wayne County Parks to run.

But I do remember a recent instance where gifted land was given back to the gift giver after it ceased being used for its designated purpose: The Allen Park VA Hospital, in the suburbs. There were plans for governmental redevelopment, but the Ford family insisted it be given back to them, and it was. The real estate is now a shopping complex [[including the only Moe's Southwestern Grill in the Tri-County area). I hope in the Eliza Howell park case, the City can work to keep this a park through finding a way to maintain it as one.

One last thing. My kids actually liked going into the South entrance from the I-96 Service Drive. There was [[and I think still is) a bunch of old playground equipment [[some of which was a little scary) that they found much more thrilling than the new stuff at the north end. IIRC, it had a zoo or dinosaur theme, and included a giant slide much taller than most today.....

Once there was a burned out Honda Civic for a couple of weeks. The kids glanced at it for a minute and then ran off to play.

[RickBeall]

One of the things Flint is doing to cut down on its costs is to let land turn into park land. .... So Detroit cannot even afford that? I know there are details "I'm missing". But there is something ironic in this idea.

You would not think it would be so expensive to put in a couple swing sets, maintain a gravel road, and cut some of the grass, compared to maintaining, say a skyscraper. If you say, well it's a big park, I would reply, does the contract dictate how much of the park is maintained? I wonder what the contract really says? I mean, if it was really vague, then you could just let it all return to nature and maintain a couple wood chip trails, a couple pit toilets, and call it a day.

To really talk about this subject, next we need some intrepid forum person type the contract into the forum for all to see.

I've never been to that park, but it seems like it could be the anchor for the new Detroit Woods which could link through all Detroit. --a belt through which wild animals could coexist with humans in the city.

These are just some thoughts.

[stinkbug]

I think Rick is on to something.

Both the city and this charlatan are at fault. The City is, very plainly, too fucking stupid to take out some rotting jungle gyms, throw down some wood chips, and turn it into a nature park. The City also has far too much hubris to strike a deal with this developer. Fuck, GIVE him some swath of land somewhere else that isn't a park.

And this [[[[[[[[[ has blatantly done nothing to advance EH as a park. He's out for a land grab, and I don't know, but there has to be some serious bad karma in exploiting the wishes of your dead ancestors to try to make a buck. I doubt he gives a shit.

Big box stores are a few minutes away in the suburbs from here. No need to build one on a park. Too bad both parties involved are total assholes.