N.Y. Terror Trials

[Mikeg]

But its ok to keep bringing up the Clinton Presidency

Kind of hard not to when so many current members of the Obama Administration - like AG Holder - were once members of the Clinton Administration.

[d.mcc]

Kind of hard not to when so many current members of the Obama Administration - like AG Holder - were once members of the Clinton Administration.

Then it should be no issue to go back to Reagan and his funding of the Mujahideen in the 1980's, as this funding probably directly led to attacks on Americans, not to mentions the weapons they used to conduct said attacks.

[Mikeg]

How does a terrorist's funding source have anything to do with the government's decision on whether the terrorist should be tried for his actions in a military or civilian court?

[d.mcc]

How does a terrorist's funding source have anything to do with the government's decision on whether the terrorist should be tried for his actions in a military or civilian court?

uh... Because it shows compliance with the government in question?

[elganned]

No answer about the rule of law, Mikeg?
Are you one of those like Bill O'Reilly who "doesn't care about the constitution"?

[vetalalumni]

Good job not missing this opportunity Mikeg.

[d.mcc]

Also possibly because his action consisted of the conspiracy and successful planning of mass murder on civilians. That's one reason I would think it to be tried in civilian courts.

[Mikeg]

Also possibly because his action consisted of the conspiracy and successful planning of mass murder on civilians. That's one reason I would think it to be tried in civilian courts.

I disagree with that kind of logic. Contrary to Senator Obama's arguments, President Obama now wants KSM to be tried in the civilian criminal court system for multiple counts of murdering civilians and military personnel instead of in the military criminal court system for war crimes involving multiple counts of murdering civilians and military personnel. The decision shouldn't hang on the fact that he killed some civilians along with military personnel - it hangs on whether this was an act of war and thus subject to investigation, collection of evidence and trial as a war crime under the provisions of the US Military Commissions Act of 2006 and the Geneva Conventions.

“I believe that Allah is sufficient to defend me. I wish to represent myself without the assistance of any lawyers.� - Khalid Sheik Mohammed, March 13, 2009.

The "circus" will be booked for the next couple of years in the Manhattan courthouse of the US District Court of Southern New York. By the time it is over, there will be a lot more voters who will think that Senator Obama was right and that's where he belongs - back in the Senate.

[barnesfoto]

"it's just so easy [[and juvenile) to change the subject and whine about the Bush years"

It's just so easy and juvenile and myopic and cultlike to pretend that what happened during the Bush years or [[the Reagan years) have no effect on the present or the future.
It's so easy and juvenile to ignore terrorists that were given millions and millions of dollars of our tax money by previous rethuglican administrations but are coincidentally never mentioned by Fox News, despite their very real presence on "wanted" lists.

It's just so easy and juvenile to ignore the mistakes of history and repeat them all over again, simply shuffling the demons [[socialism, communism, radical islam, socialism, communism, radical islam).

It's just so easy and juvenile to constantly use fear as an means of whipping up reaction, rather than using logic to base action upon.

It's so easy to pretend that we have to "move ahead" and forget about the criminal incompetence of the Reagan-Bush era, because, you know, that was a few years ago, when it would never occur to us to forget about putting KSM on trial, or looking for OBL, because, you know, 9/11 was almost a decade ago.

We can stop talking about Bush when the war that he and his sick cult started is over, the millions of people maimed by the war are healed, and the bills for the war have all been paid.

[Mikeg]

blah, blah,... Bush.....Reagan.....blah, blah.... rethuglican,..... Fox News,....... blah, blah, ....... fear, ..... sick cult,.....blah, blah......

What a boring broken record.

Meanwhile, back on topic, in AG Holder's opening remarks yesterday before the Senate Judiciary Committee, he said the following [[my emphasis in bold):

As I said on Friday, I knew this decision would be controversial. This was a tough call, and reasonable people can disagree with my conclusion that these individuals should be tried in federal court rather than a military commission.
The 9/11 attacks were both an act of war and a violation of our federal criminal law, and they could have been prosecuted in either federal courts or military commissions. Courts and commissions are both essential tools in our fight against terrorism. Therefore, at the outset of my review of these cases, I had no preconceived views as to the merits of either venue, and in fact on the same day that I sent these five defendants to federal court, I referred five others to be tried in military commissions. I am a prosecutor, and as a prosecutor my top priority was simply to select the venue where the government will have the greatest opportunity to present the strongest case in the best forum.
I studied this issue extensively. I consulted the Secretary of Defense. I heard from prosecutors from my Department and from the Defense Department's Office of Military Commissions. I spoke to victims on both sides of the question. I asked a lot of questions and weighed every alternative. And at the end of the day, it was clear to me that the venue in which we are most likely to obtain justice for the American people is in federal court.

Yet nowhere in his remarks did he offer an explanation as to what criteria he used and why he concluded that Federal Court is the proper venue for KSM and the four others while at the same time deciding that five others should go to a military commission for trial.

[d.mcc]

What a boring broken record.

Meanwhile, back on topic, in AG Holder's opening remarks yesterday before the Senate Judiciary Committee, he said the following [[my emphasis in bold):

Yet nowhere in his remarks did he offer an explanation as to what criteria he used and why he concluded that Federal Court is the proper venue for KSM and the four others while at the same time deciding that five others should go to a military commission for trial.

Did you ever thing that perhaps they are holding them in a Federal Court so that people around the world can observe our justice system, rather than in a closed military tribunal?

[rb336]

What a boring broken record.

Meanwhile, back on topic, in AG Holder's opening remarks yesterday before the Senate Judiciary Committee, he said the following [[my emphasis in bold):

Yet nowhere in his remarks did he offer an explanation as to what criteria he used and why he concluded that Federal Court is the proper venue for KSM and the four others while at the same time deciding that five others should go to a military commission for trial.

as someone who actually worked in the WTC, I would like nothing more than to see KSM face a NY crowd. it would be cathartic

[ejames01]

Doesn't there have to be a war in order to commit "War Crimes"? Mass murder isn't considered warfare.

I disagree with that kind of logic. Contrary to Senator Obama's arguments, President Obama now wants KSM to be tried in the civilian criminal court system for multiple counts of murdering civilians and military personnel instead of in the military criminal court system for war crimes involving multiple counts of murdering civilians and military personnel. The decision shouldn't hang on the fact that he killed some civilians along with military personnel - it hangs on whether this was an act of war and thus subject to investigation, collection of evidence and trial as a war crime under the provisions of the US Military Commissions Act of 2006 and the Geneva Conventions.

“I believe that Allah is sufficient to defend me. I wish to represent myself without the assistance of any lawyers.� - Khalid Sheik Mohammed, March 13, 2009.

The "circus" will be booked for the next couple of years in the Manhattan courthouse of the US District Court of Southern New York. By the time it is over, there will be a lot more voters who will think that Senator Obama was right and that's where he belongs - back in the Senate.

[elganned]

Besides which, I find it laughable that anyone would invoke the Geneva Convention here, seeing that the entire reason he was held at Gitmo as an "enemy combatant" was precisely because the previous administration refused to extend the label of "prisoner of war" to the detainees, specifically so that they would not fall under the aegis of the Geneva Convention.

All of which is beside the point. The Military Commissions Act was introduced to avoid the "rigors" of either the civil court system--which it was argued had no jurisdiction--or the military court system--on the grounds that they are not prisoners of war. It was precisely to set up kangaroo courts in which the then-current administration could appear to legitimately try and convict people whom it otherwise had no legal standing to try and convict.

It also provides a convenient legal catch-all system which we can now use to indict, try, and convict anyone we snatch anywhere in the world under the pretense that they are "enemy combatants".

Welcome to the Gulag.

[barnesfoto]

"What a boring broken record"

And what a predictable sick cultist.

Whatever you do, don't ever admit that funding and training illiterate religious fundamentalists in the past was a bad idea, or has any connection with 9/11, or that for all the money that was given to Pakistan by previous US Presidents, especially the last one, we should have been given every terrorist in their territories wrapped in bacon, or that we are still mired in two obscenely expensive wars whilst bankrolling two gangster regimes that just made the list of the world's most corrupt nations.
That's all the past, gotta move on.

Instead, focus on where KSM's trial is being held, as if there has never been a high profile trial in the US where justice was done.

Look at the bright side; it's a tremendous opportunity for folks like you to bitch; think of it as a gift from the Obama Admin.

[Detroitej72]

But its ok to keep bringing up the Clinton Presidency?

At least he doesn't blame all our current ills on Carter like our most famous right wing apologist has done from time to time.

[Jimaz]

Besides which, I find it laughable that anyone would invoke the Geneva Convention here, seeing that the entire reason he was held at Gitmo as an "enemy combatant" was precisely because the previous administration refused to extend the label of "prisoner of war" to the detainees, specifically so that they would not fall under the aegis of the Geneva Convention.

All of which is beside the point....

But thanks for mentioning that. People seem to be forgetting it. It was a strategy to sidestep the risk of war crime prosecution of the Bush administration, indicating they intended to act and understood that they were acting in opposition of the spirit of the Geneva Convention.

[elganned]

But thanks for mentioning that. People seem to be forgetting it. It was a strategy to sidestep the risk of war crime prosecution of the Bush administration, indicating they intended to and understood that they were acting in opposition of the spirit of the Geneva Convention.

And also indicating that they had every intention of torturing--oh, excuse me: "interrogating in an enhanced manor"--any captives and knew that any evidence accumulated under such "enhanced interrogation" would be inadmissible in either US civil court or US court martial.

[ccbatson]

Correct, they skipped the Geneva Convention and went to conveying US citizen rights to terrorists...This is a mistake that will hurt the administration after it is said and done.

[elganned]

So it's okay to kidnap people off the street, torture them, and keep them locked up without charges indefinitely as long as they aren't US citizens?
Is that your position, Cc?

[ccbatson]

Which "street" is that? The street in Iraq on which they were shooting at American soldiers? Yep...lock them up or shoot them dead on sight on the battlefield of their choosing.

[elganned]

The street in Pakistan where Muhammed was snatched. Also the streets of Berlin, Madrid, and Buenas Aires. Oh, and don't forget the Uighers.

Last I looked at a map, none of those places are in Iraq.

[ccbatson]

Snatched while doing???...And how many legitimate terrorists are at Gitmo not from battlefields? 5? 10?

[elganned]

That's the point: You don't know. Last figure I heard--from a West Point review, no less--was 27%.

Yet you continue to call them all terrorists, insist they were captured on the battlefield [[many weren't) and advocate their being shot on a battlefield of their choosing, all without having the slightest inkling who's actually dangerous and who isn't.

At least if they're [[finally!) brought to trial we'll ALL know who's a legitimate terrorist and who's just a poor schlump who was in the wrong place at the wrong time...or worse, was sold for bounty by oportunistic kidnappers because the Americans were so eager to get their hands on anyone they could showcase as a terrorist "enemy combatant" that they didn't look very closely at who was being sold or who was doing the selling.

Oh, and to answer your first question, snatched while walking down the street--not planting an IED.

[ccbatson]

73% shooting at soldiers...and 27% arrested on strong intelligence of their involvement in terrorist actions...100% legitimate detentions of ENEMY COMBATANTS.