Woodward Avenue Retail Development Activity

[manualshift]

Need these buildings filled with offices and workers for retail to have a chance.

[stasu1213]

How about Staples? How about the Computer Store in the Penobscot Building?

General Electronics? How about Super K? Even the Target in E Dearborn is only a ten minute drive from DPL.

We're talking about a computer store that is in the heart of downtown. Not one that is a ten minute drive from downtown. The computer store that is in the penobscot building doesn't carry much office supplies. Staples is a drive from downtown. We need one in the heart of Campus Martius.

[DetroitPlanner]

Well study the market stasu, and if you think you can open one and make money, why don't you do it yourself?

[Hermod]

We're talking about a computer store that is in the heart of downtown. Not one that is a ten minute drive from downtown. The computer store that is in the penobscot building doesn't carry much office supplies. Staples is a drive from downtown. We need one in the heart of Campus Martius.

And a Macy's and a Dillard's and a Sears and a JC Penney and a Super Target and a Super Walmart and a Kohl's and a Costco and an Old Navy and a Tiffany's and a Home Depot and on and on..............

[douglasm]

There's an interesting program started in the Pioneer Square area of Seattle [[patterned after a similar program in Tacoma) where landlords are opening individual store fronts to artists and small, craft style merchants for free or minimal rent. It's short term [[until the opening is rented), but the theory is that keeping the storefronts full improves appearances and builds traffic. The more traffic, the better chance to rent the space.

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Seat...-98627394.html

It's a clever idea.....

[BrushStart]

There's an interesting program started in the Pioneer Square area of Seattle [[patterned after a similar program in Tacoma) where landlords are opening individual store fronts to artists and small, craft style merchants for free or minimal rent. It's short term [[until the opening is rented), but the theory is that keeping the storefronts full improves appearances and builds traffic. The more traffic, the better chance to rent the space.

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Seat...-98627394.html

It's a clever idea.....

That is exactly what needs to happen along the Woodward corridor and in other unoccupied ground-level retail in the CBD. I'm sure there are plenty of artists and merchants who would jump at the opportunity. The number one thing retailers and franchises look for in selecting a location for a new shop is foot/car traffic [[the industry terminology is counting heads/cars). I don't understand why landlords would rather keep these places completely vacant when they could collect some short-term revenue while trying to attract bigger fish... Foot traffic would improve, and it would enchance the perception of their property. It's a win-win in IMO.

[wolverine]

It's definitely a win-win. You need to break the cycle of "more businesses will come when there's more foot traffic, more traffic when more businesses come."

You could say Kresge shops is a similar type of concept. Dirt cheap rent and assembling a few other retailers to create an "attraction." But it seems like such an odd idea, if not a big joke. I'd prefer to see the high profile storefronts get some temporary retail, to get the ball rolling instead of some gimmicky cheap mall concept.

[BrushStart]

I'd prefer to see the high profile storefronts get some temporary retail, to get the ball rolling instead of some gimmicky cheap mall concept.

How does the ball get rolling on an idea like this? Is it city initiated or do the landlords have to extend the offer? It seems like the project in Seattle was probably initiated by the city and then supported by the landlords. I doubt it would take more than a few days to compile a list of Detroit artists and merchants interested in participating, but then what? I am not an artist or a merchant but would really like to see this happen, just don't know who to call...

[stasu1213]

Well study the market stasu, and if you think you can open one and make money, why don't you do it yourself?

If I was a businessman I probably would try. I am the consumer who gives ideas so I shant try. Having a bar to open in that space would cheapen the whole complex. Compuware is a computer firm. It would make sense to put something there to compliment Compuware and other businesses in CBD who may need items for their' computers, laptops, printers, etc.

[DetroitDad]

There's an interesting program started in the Pioneer Square area of Seattle [[patterned after a similar program in Tacoma) where landlords are opening individual store fronts to artists and small, craft style merchants for free or minimal rent. It's short term [[until the opening is rented), but the theory is that keeping the storefronts full improves appearances and builds traffic. The more traffic, the better chance to rent the space.

http://www.king5.com/news/local/Seat...-98627394.html

It's a clever idea.....

The problem is that some of these buildings need a lot of work before the retail level is usable, while others are currently going or gone through foreclosure, and now owned by a bank, holding company, or the city, all of which may have no interest being landlords. Some other properties were asking higher rents to fit with the high end residences above the retail level that they hope to sell as condos in the coming years. Most of the other spaces are already leased, or appear to have something in the works.

So really, you are talking about the Tall-Eez owners, Compuware, and maybe the Loft's at Woodward Center, all of which have had tenants willing to pay the higher prices in recent years. Plus, the demand for beginner merchants and artists is already being over-served by Inside Detroit, the Kresge Shops, and the City of Detroit new street vending program. Trying to distribute lower end [[free) merchant's and artists could empty out those other venues, could drive away current shops operating now or during events [[who want to be in an upscale development, like in Kresge Shops), and we could end up with an atmosphere like the Russell Bizarre.

I think Woodward needs to stay the course, and work on attracting destination shopping, that will surely come during the light rail construction.

[douglasm]

To answer BrushStart, as I understand the Seattle program, the Pioneer Square Merchants Association put in some seed money, as did the city. The Elliot Bay Books mentioned in the King 5 piece was a long standing merchant in the P.S. Historic District, and when they pulled out, a lot of other merchants who relied on the foot traffic Elliot Bay Books brought in started hurting. It worked well in the Broadway Plaza district of [[downtown) Tacoma which had been hurting for years.

DetroitDad brings up a good point, though. I don't know how the insurance problems are handled, and generally the storefronts in the Pioneer Square area are in pretty good shape. It's only been over the past couple of years that the empty storefront problem has become serious.

I agree that destination shoppers are needed, and it would be ideal to fill the storefronts with long term tenants, but empty storefronts are retail traffic killers in the same way bank buildings are. People will not walk past a strip of m/t store fronts to get to 1 or 2 shops. You have to generate traffic somehow, and DDD days just won't cut it anymore.

In any case, these people could probably get you some information on the program, or at least direct you to the proper resource....

http://www.pioneersquaredistrict.org/

[DetroitPlanner]

If I was a businessman I probably would try. I am the consumer who gives ideas so I shant try. Having a bar to open in that space would cheapen the whole complex. Compuware is a computer firm. It would make sense to put something there to compliment Compuware and other businesses in CBD who may need items for their' computers, laptops, printers, etc.

We get our computers directly from the company. Our IT folks just check out HP, Dell, Apple and others and order the best computer at the best price without the need to go to the middleman. I would assume just about everyone else downtown does too. Do you really think that Compuware employees buy thier personal machines at Radio Shack, Best Buy, or the Apple Store in the mall???

If a bar would cheapen the whole complex, maybe they should evict the Hard Rock Cafe? I think the saundry shop there also sells beer and wine, better get rid of them too.

A Downtown's retail environment needs to be unique in order for it to be successful. The days of Giant Department Stores are long gone. Even downtowns seen as successful have a hard time of it in todays world of buying at the discount stores and the internet. There is only one Chicago, even NYC does not have that many Dept Stores but there are hundreds of downtowns similar to Detroit's.

[BrushStart]

I understand what DetroitDad is saying, but it might be years before the M1 line is running. A great way to prime whatever empty retial locations there are for bigger retailers is to put something in now to start generating an interest in the area. I don't know about the insurance rates; presumably a bank or the city is paying them if the property is foreclosed. This is really a project that could be successful in Detroit because it plays on Detroit's strong suits. Eager entrpreneurial-types with a lot of creative ideas are overflowing around here. Giving them an opportunity to showcase their work on Woodward's downtown corridor would energize them to really run with it, and some might even have enough success to stay on a permanent basis. After reading about Seattle's project, they are going to have street vendors and live music outside the new storefronts. I disagree though continuing to build up the area will hurt existing businesses. These types of places are not in direct competition, even if they have similarities. At worst, it would give shoppers more to look at. As has been said, I don't know how much rennovation, if any, some of these places need on the inside to bring them up to code. There's really no harm in trying out a project like this though. Even if it fails, nobody took any huge risks, and at least you can say we gave it a shot.

[stasu1213]

We get our computers directly from the company. Our IT folks just check out HP, Dell, Apple and others and order the best computer at the best price without the need to go to the middleman. I would assume just about everyone else downtown does too. Do you really think that Compuware employees buy thier personal machines at Radio Shack, Best Buy, or the Apple Store in the mall???

If a bar would cheapen the whole complex, maybe they should evict the Hard Rock Cafe? I think the saundry shop there also sells beer and wine, better get rid of them too.

A Downtown's retail environment needs to be unique in order for it to be successful. The days of Giant Department Stores are long gone. Even downtowns seen as successful have a hard time of it in todays world of buying at the discount stores and the internet. There is only one Chicago, even NYC does not have that many Dept Stores but there are hundreds of downtowns similar to Detroit's.

I understand they Compuware has it's own IT dept. A store in that spot could benefit other smaller businesses in the area who may need to buy computers, hardware for computers or office supplies itself. The store could be contract to businesses up and down Woodward. I would go out on a limb and say Radio Shack, Office Max or something like them would work in that spot instead of a bar. Hard Rock cafe is a restaurant also. That is why it is sucessful

[Stosh]

I understand they Compuware has it's own IT dept. A store in that spot could benefit other smaller businesses in the area who may need to buy computers, hardware for computers or office supplies itself. The store could be contract to businesses up and down Woodward. I would go out on a limb and say Radio Shack, Office Max or something like them would work in that spot instead of a bar. Hard Rock cafe is a restaurant also. That is why it is sucessful

Yes, nothing drives foot trafic like computer stores.

I'd think restaurants would work there that served liquor.

[iheartthed]

We get our computers directly from the company. Our IT folks just check out HP, Dell, Apple and others and order the best computer at the best price without the need to go to the middleman. I would assume just about everyone else downtown does too. Do you really think that Compuware employees buy thier personal machines at Radio Shack, Best Buy, or the Apple Store in the mall???

If a bar would cheapen the whole complex, maybe they should evict the Hard Rock Cafe? I think the saundry shop there also sells beer and wine, better get rid of them too.

A Downtown's retail environment needs to be unique in order for it to be successful. The days of Giant Department Stores are long gone. Even downtowns seen as successful have a hard time of it in todays world of buying at the discount stores and the internet. There is only one Chicago, even NYC does not have that many Dept Stores but there are hundreds of downtowns similar to Detroit's.

What major city with a functional core doesn't have at least one department store downtown? Even Pittsburgh has department stores downtown...

[Carey]

I've worked downtown since 1977. While I welcome -- and patronize -- such new shops as Motor City Wine, the number of people in the central business district during a normal workday seems to be at an all-time low. There is no rush hour to speak of, and there just aren't many people on the streets. Walking through the Penobscot Building can be a solitary experience at 3 p.m. One exception is the area right around Campus Martius, but walk a couple blocks in any direction and you'd never think you were in one of the nation's biggest cities. I helped three guys in their 20s with directions at 4:30 p.m. Friday at Woodward and State. They were from Avignon, France, and they were touring the country by car. One of them looked around and said: "What is wrong with this city? It is dead." I gave them a quick PR pitch about Detroit, but it was a tough sell when we were among the only people on that stretch of Woodward, and even the new coffee shop in the Kresge building had closed for the day.

[DetroitPlanner]

What major city with a functional core doesn't have at least one department store downtown? Even Pittsburgh has department stores downtown...

You have to be kidding me right???

Washington DC
Baltimore
Atlanta
Los Angeles
Las Vegas
Cleveland
Buffalo
Toledo
Columbus
Miami
Nashville
Phoenix
Philadelphia barely has one, and won't soon.

This is just off the top of my head. The only reason why Pittburgh has stores is its geography makes it very difficult for people to shop at the suburban locations. The rivers and hills keeps the market contained. The only reason why San Diego has Department Stores is that they are located in a mall and it has a lot of tourist activity.

There are no Downtown Department Stores left in Michigan.

[Hermod]

What major city with a functional core doesn't have at least one department store downtown? Even Pittsburgh has department stores downtown...

Off the top of my head:

Richmond, VA
Petersburg, VA
Norfolk, VA
Newport News, VA
Baltimore, MD
Miami, FL
Fort Lauderdale, FL

[kryptonite]

Off the top of my head:

Richmond, VA
Petersburg, VA
Norfolk, VA
Newport News, VA
Baltimore, MD
Miami, FL
Fort Lauderdale, FL

Add Nashville - their last downtown dept. store closed around 1995.

I thought I heard Milwaukee no longer had a dept. store downtown, but cannot confirm that.

I have been around downtown Louisville, KY a number of times and have never seen a dept. store, possibly none exist?

[Dabirch]

You have to be kidding me right???

Washington DC
Baltimore
Atlanta
Los Angeles
Las Vegas
Cleveland
Buffalo
Toledo
Columbus
Miami
Nashville
Phoenix
Philadelphia barely has one, and won't soon.

This is just off the top of my head. The only reason why Pittburgh has stores is its geography makes it very difficult for people to shop at the suburban locations. The rivers and hills keeps the market contained. The only reason why San Diego has Department Stores is that they are located in a mall and it has a lot of tourist activity.

There are no Downtown Department Stores left in Michigan.

starting at the top of your list, without even searching - there is a Macy's and Filene's in DC. There is a Filene's in Baltimore. There is a Macy's in downton LA.

Before you open your mouth, please think.

[detmsp]

Downtown Minneapolis has a Macys and a Saks, and downtown St Paul also has a Macys.

[kryptonite]

Crap, we don't even have a Dollar Tree downtown.

[dtowncitylover]

Downtown Indianapolis has a Nordstrom and Carson's, just a FYI.

[douglasm]

Spokane, WA doesn't have a department store, and the town of 175,000 has a vibrant retail core. 'Course Tacoma doesn't have a department store either and its CBD has suffered for years. That's why they went with the program.

I wonder if people who think a downtown needs a department store are thinking "old school". Granted, if there was a major department store downtown it would act as a draw, but realisticaly, most downtowns department stores are heritage stores that have been downtown forever. To think that a major department store would build in downtown Detroit is unrealistic, and outside the box thinking is going to be needed to re-energize the downtown retail core.

Does Denver have a major department store? The Foley's [[ex May D&F) is in Westminster, and Denver Dry Goods folded in '87......