Wind Power is a Complete Disaster

[ccbatson]

He falls into the "anyone" category, as opposed to the worst offender group that I described.

[ccbatson]

Yes, the "worst offenders" comment was not in reference to Mr. Pickens, rather liberal politicians.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Hmm, saying "you are not worth millions" is an insult to you?"

Not at all. Just wondering why you would choose to use a childish quip directed at me personally, when you just accused another poster of that very same thing.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "On the other hand, 3WC spent a entire paragraph calling RB ignorant, snide, know-nothing,"

Probably because you and RB accused him of the same in sucker-punch seventh grade fashion. Essentially called him a liar. I have some news for you, there are people that know things you don't know. You'll realize that when you grow up.

What this really is: Some of the lesser in intellect are convinced that if we buy a bunch of oversize lawn whirligigs, we can shut down nuclear and tell big oil to piss off. You couldn't be more wrong. And anyone that challenges this delusion is subject to personal insult. Goes with the territory.

[Sstashmoo]

Your original comment to me was nothing more than a bait to start an argument. You succeeded and you are dismissed.

"That's why he is and you aren't" What an imbecilic thing to say. Had nothing to do with anything, except taking a pot shot at one for a response. Someone needs some attention apparently.

[d.mcc]

Yep, there are people that know a lot about this. Do you trust people on anonymous bulletin boards? If so, I would just like to let you know that I am actually a top official in the Nigerian government and I have $30 million dollars in a secret account that is being hidden from the current military junta and I am authorized to transfer it to you. Please PM me with your personal information and bank account numbers.

Can I get in on that?

[rb336]

Rb, I note you made one of your usual snide, know-nothing comments above, implying I know nothing about the energy or oil and gas businesses. You say you're the genius that always sets me straight of something to that effect. The fact is that since 1990 I have produced almost 3 million bbls of crude oil in Taxas; last year I produced about 150,000 bbls of crude oil and stripped 1.5 million gallons of propane and other natual gas liquids from the gas I produce. Now, I don't pretend to know everything there is to know about the oil and gas business, but I'm pretty sure I've forgotten more than you have the capacity for ever knowing. I've followed your "energy" posts on the old forum and you are absolutely energy illiterate, relying on Wikapedia or Mother Jones News for your opinions. There's no sin for being ignorant about a business - we all are about one thing or another - but you hold yourself out as knowing what you're talking about, and because you rarely have any rational, informed ideas on these matters, or any actual knowledge, people on here ought to understand that.

me thinks thou doth protest too much. I have rarely heard someone defend their claims of wealth/position with such vehemence except when it is fictional. Most people I know who are in those positions don't give a damn what anyone thinks of their relative wealth or success. I rarely use Wiki, and then only when the comment is supported by an actual source. I never use Mother Jones unless there is a funny quip in it. Most of what I have posted comes from various non-mainstream journals, usually peer-reviewed.

[3WC]

Speramus, did you really think I posted a non-working link on purpose? You probably did. Anyway, this should work:

http://www.houstonpress.com/2009-03-...ens-road-show/

Read it [[slowly) and learn something. [I know you're going to spend an hour trying to come uo with something you think contradicts something I said. Have fun, just don't take anything out of context.]

Go back and read the second paragraph of your post 139. Read this carefully. I say the Pickens project is dead. So do his reps who were negotiating the critical R-O-W agreement necessary for the project to go forward. Pickens says it's delayed until at least 2011. What else is he going to say while he's still trying to revive the deal? I hope you try and hold your breath until that deal gets done.

You ask "[[H)ow is the fact that he [[Pickens) lost money in the market a condemnation anyway? " Well, certainly the two are unrelated. Who but an idiot would think otherwise? Present company not excepted. I never said that his recent financial setbacks condemned windppower, but it's clear from his own statements that his situatio and that of the capital markets have had a major adverse impact on his Plan. Don't misquote me. You sound more and more like Danindc.

Finally, I made no ad hominem attacks on Rb. What are you, joined at the hip with the guy? Let him speak for himself. See comment below.

OK, Rb, now you. I have never held myself out as wealthy or having any particular position in life. So, I have nothing to defend. I know you don't like it when someone who knows a lot more about a topic than you do contradicts you.

I feel by exposing your tactics I am doing the forum a public service. I recall with much amusement that on a windpower thread on the old forum you posted three links to Dept. of Energy websites to support whatever cockamamie position you were pushing. I checked out each link - and they were very lengthy. Two contradicted each other and NONE supported your position. I guess you feel that by merely posting a link to something adds credibility to your argument and that nobody is going to go to the rouble to actually read them.

I also recall with much amusement where on an energy thread you asserted that natural gas is not "petroleum." Despite the fact that I posted numerous sources to prove you wrong, you still didn't back down. Good for you.

Back to Speramus: you wouldn't know a bumpkin from a pumpkin. I've met Pickens and followed his career and he's no bumpkin. However, the first 2 U.S. billionaires, H. L. Hunt and Hugh Roy Cullen, were frequently referred to by their detractors as "country bumpkins," and much worse. You can be very rich and still be a bumpkin. Pickens is not, however; he's a Patriot.

[ccbatson]

On hold because it doesn't make economic sense right now...wind is costlier than oil per amount of energy extractable. One day, purely by virtue of market forces, that may change, and then alternates MAY make sense. NOT BEFORE, not by artificial government penalties and subsidies as a futile attempt to influence the market.

[Mind field]

Wind energy is clearly not a perfect energy solution and i doubt there is any one perfect solution However, for those who can actually grasp a world outside of money signs and economics, and for those who actually have the foresight to realize the consequences of our short-sighted and greed motivated actions on this planet, wind energy is certainly SUPERIOR to coal burning power plants for a host of reasons.

1.) Mining coal is deadly. Period.

http://www.msha.gov/fatals/fabc.htm

2.) It also causes disease.

http://www.alternet.org/healthwellne...s_back/?page=2

3.) And when coal isn't being extracted by miners, it's being blown out of mountain tops destroying diverse ecosystems and creating toxic moonscapes .

http://www.mountainjusticesummer.org/facts/steps.php

4.) Burning coal produces toxic chemicals: Mercury and oxides of sulfur and nitrogen.

http://www.edf.org/article.cfm?contentID=5433

5.) And when the byproducts of burning coal burst out of their confinement ponds, it's a mess

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/12/26/ten...dge/index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/10/us...ge.html?ref=us

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_173470.html

I conclude my case. Renewable energy is the winner hands down. SO WHAT IF IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE. The fledgling Michigan renewable energy sector has the potential to create thousands of jobs for Michigan workers. I'm sure many of you read the plans for a wind energy company in Novi to open a production facility employing 250 initially. And this is just the start. Hemlock semiconductor employs at least one hundred near Saginaw, with plans to hire hundreds more with it's expansion.

The fuels for wind and solar energy are infinite, and minimally polluting [[I say minimally because the processes used to manufacture wind turbines and solar panels creates at least some waste/pollution). And with a smart grid and advanced storage technology, renewables intermittent nature will be a complete non-issue in the future.

[rb336]

[quote=3WC;7439]Finally, I made no ad hominem attacks on Rb. What are you, joined at the hip with the guy? Let him speak for himself. See comment below.

OK, Rb, now you. I have never held myself out as wealthy or having any particular position in life. So, I have nothing to defend. I know you don't like it when someone who knows a lot more about a topic than you do contradicts you.

I feel by exposing your tactics I am doing the forum a public service. I recall with much amusement that on a windpower thread on the old forum you posted three links to Dept. of Energy websites to support whatever cockamamie position you were pushing. I checked out each link - and they were very lengthy. Two contradicted each other and NONE supported your position. I guess you feel that by merely posting a link to something adds credibility to your argument and that nobody is going to go to the rouble to actually read them.

I also recall with much amusement where on an energy thread you asserted that natural gas is not "petroleum." quote]

" I note you made one of your usual snide, know-nothing comments "
that is an ad-hominem

" checked out each link - and they were very lengthy. Two contradicted each other and NONE supported your position"

actually, they did. why did you wait until now to say that?

as far as your "natural gas IS petroleum" bs LPG is petroleum. methane, another natural gas, isn't. my argument all along was that you were being overly broad. Not ALL natural gas that comes from the ground is petroleum-based. some comes from volcanic activity, some from other non-petrol sources. some does come from petroleum. those are the facts, plain as day

You have yet to actually contradict me, however your acknowledging my use of real sources when you claimed I only used wiki and mother jones is clearly a case of you contradicting yourself.

" I have never held myself out as wealthy"

and yet you go on and on about how much oil and gas you produce...

fun to have you back

[Johnlodge]

For the record, I didn't make any snide comments towards 3WC, I just posted a link that said Pickens was still promoting "the Pickens Plan".

You may now continue with your regularly scheduled chest-thumping.

[rb336]

sometimes, you just have to go gorilla

[ccbatson]

R and D is ongoing, but commensurate with the likelihood of yield from investment and risk of capital....as it should be according to market forces.

[ccbatson]

Unfortunately, no, they really don't. Yet another symptom of what is wrong with big government.

[ccbatson]

SERVICES REQUESTED AND RENDERED by request of consumers. It is not hypocrisy.

[ccbatson]

The customers that later went on to get cochlear implants based on the basic neuroscience research and now can hear.

The person's to blame for taking your money to fund Medicare are not the Physicians providing the service, but the politicians that created the monstrosity which, BTW, is poised to bankrupt the economy unless severely rationed to the point of a nonfunctioning system over the next 20 years or so. Once that happens, the two tiered system kicks in and seniors are forced to pay out of pocket on a black market to get any kind of timely or quality health care.

[reddog289]

With all said about this thread I would still like to build a wind driven power source. Good thing I bookmarked one of the ones I saw on the old forum.

[eriedearie]

I have not had a chance to read ALL through this but thought I would post it here for information purposes on the subject. This link discusses wind turbines my area and others were to get. Some of you may find this link useful...., eh?

http://essexcountywind.wordpress.com/

If you arrow down about a third of the way through the article, you'll come to this ---- in part...

As for “every time the wind blows, less coal is burned� this statement is a huge leap from the truth. In theory, one displaced unit of coal generation would mean less coal burned, however in practise, fossil-fuel generation has to stay in spinning reserve in order to respond to the intermittent nature of wind. Alberta, because of so much windpower generation, had to construct a new natural gas generator to fall back on. “The problem with wind power is that the wind doesn’t blow all the time, so the greater percentage of the system depends on wind, the more vulnerable to disruption the system becomes when the wind stops blowing,� said Peter Hunt, an Enmax spokesman. Wind developers try to discount this by saying that in Ontario, we should be using Hydro power for backup. Aside from the fact that Hydro forms a part of the base load, [[i.e. Needs to run all the time to support infrastructures such as hospitals) the whole idea behind wind was to replace coal, which is not happening. Germany, the country with the largest influx of wind generation, are now proposing 26 new coal generation plants despite having 10% of their electrical grid dedicated to wind.

[ccbatson]

Actually, SM, my grant and stipend was privately funded. The overall project was NIH funded.

Best to leave the personal stuff out [[positive and negative) on the forums BTW.

[3WC]

Sorry, Speramus, to be so late getting back to you. I've been very busy. It seems that even at my age I have to work harder and harder to make more and more money to pay not only my own taxes but the taxes of over 40% of the country who pay none [[per WSJ, April 13, 2009.) You're welcome.

First, I've been doing some investment research on Royal Dutch Shell and have come across some interesting stuff that I should have brought out in this thread earlier than now. Shell has been in the forefront of energy companies seeking to address the alleged problems caused by human conduct as it affects natural global warming.

You may remember from threads on the old forum that the U. K. a year or so ago the announced a $110+ billion wind project offshore. [[TheCrown Estate, the queen's money, owns most of the offshore area where the project is to be located.) Shell, which has done much research into wind energy, was an initial major backer of the project. However, it pulled out of the project early on. Reasons: insufficient technology to get the project built, and the economics did not work when all was said and done. This week, Shell also pulled out of all it's wind energy projects in China. Same reason, apparently. It has also abandoned its initial [[claimed) high expectations for solar power.

In order for these alternative energy projects to get done, the backers must have deep pockets, be technologically savvy, have long term interests, and the ability to make wise investment and financial decisions as more information is obtained and technology advances, if it does. Shell is the perfect example of what it takes to drive such projects to completion. And Shell has basically said that wind energy where it felt had the best chance to be successful is no longer feasible.

But, get this. Shell has been working on something far more practical in reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Apparently, CO2 is the biggest alleged culprit. Shell generates a lot of it. Shell has worked tirelessly to develop the technology to sequester CO2 below the surface of the earth in depleted gas fields. Its pilot project in Holland, with the full support of the government after thorough environmental studies [[and a commitment of almost $40 million), has been derailed at least temporarily by a local municipality which has concerns about leaks from several 1000s of feet below the surface. Pumping CO2 far beneath the surface to stimulate oil production is common in the oil businessand there are many such projects in the U.S. The pilot project [[with Exxon-Mobil involvement in the ownership of the depleted gas field,) would handle 400,000 tons of CO2 a year.

NIMBY. No good deed goes unpunished. [[See a story on this in yesterday's WSJ. And I believe one the day before as well. Look it up.)

Now, Speramus, you claimed that I did not read the T. Boone Pickens article I myself posted above and you claim that it contradicts something I said, Nonsense. I not only read the article but I comprehended it, unlike you. Read it again and read my posts and then apologise. You have to comprehend stuff though before posting. Don't make me once again go through your posts line by line to set you straight.

[ccbatson]

I think I have a crush on 3WC...please stick around, we need you on DYes.

[rb336]

but the taxes of over 40% of the country who pay none [[per WSJ, April 13, 2009.) You're welcome..

yeah, like the WSJ has been even moderately credible since Prince Rupert took over. are they including children in that "40%"?

[ccbatson]

Let unfettered market force determine what RandD [[private) is prudent.

[Detroitej72]

Let unfettered market force determine what RandD [[private) is prudent.

If we let the free market decide, then slavery would still be legal in this country.
__________________________________________________ ________________

On the subject of electricity, it seems, the corporate entities will keep raising rates every time people conserve energy. It seems they will always have a reason to justify the increases, no matter how little you use.

As long as the utilities are for profit, the consumers will be stuck with high rates.