Dylan at the Fox

**Norwalk** · November-08-09, 04:40 PM

in respose to ronaldj's post those general admission shows back in 2001 and 2002 were some of the best Dylan shows that I have seen and I have seen him 16 times. I didn't mind spending top dollar to stand/dance on the main floor as I was generally able to work my way right up to the front.

**eno** · November-08-09, 06:20 PM

Well, they might as well not bother with seats if no one is going to sit down. I really don't get that. Went to see Dick Dale at the Magic Stick, and couldn.t see anything then either. There were no seats except around the edges, They need to get the standing crowd in back of the sitting crowd, not the other way around. quote

I feel for you about the seating situation at the Fox. It's a seated auditorium so people should come with the expectation they will sit for the performance. I believe ushers should have gone down the aisles encouraging people to sit down so everyone can see the show and not block those who are short. However, at the Magic Stick, the seats are on raised platforms on two sides of the room. It's usually general admission and standing room only on the main floor before the stage. That's the expectation.

**1KielsonDrive** · November-08-09, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by eno

Yeah, I balked at the high ticket prices they were asking. Same with Tom Waits, Bjork, Leonard Cohen.

There's very few acts out there that are worth those prices. If I was to come into tickets for one of the above mentioned artists for an inexpensive price, OR, at a small and intimate venue, I'd consider attending. The Fox is way too big for a concert. I've seen quite a few shows there - long ago. Not likely again. My favorite venues, assuming the price is right, would be the Magic Bag, The Gem and Century, The Ark and other small, local bars, concert halls. But it's easy for me to say because I've seen most everyone I wanted to see in my days. I generally rule out Cobo, The Joe, Chrisler, Silverdome [[it's gone anyway), Pine Knob, Ford Field, Comerica, etc, etc. Even Hill Auditorium is too big. The Michigan Theatre is pretty good. Plus, there's so much free music around, why pay? I saw Bill Kirchen of Country Joe and the Fish, this summer at Townie Party in A2. Free! What a great show he put on with George Bedard. Front row for me. The music line-up for the A2 Summer Fest is ridiculously good. Taste Fest [[??) and Concert for Colors are great shows. Dylan doesn't need another 10 Million bucks. He certainly won't get it from me.

Sludgedaddy · November-08-09, 10:17 PM

1KielsonDrive...In your last post, truer words were never spoken! Who in this nightmare economy has the spare bucks to spend on a concert featuring an over the hill caterwauller in cramped acoustically lacking settings. Probably one of the last icons of the 1960's, Joan Baez, hit the nail on the head when she called Mr. Zimmerman a pompous asshole.And you are right ,Dylan certainly don't need the monies, unless he's got some baby momma's up in Hibbing.

Give me a triple bill fantasy concert with The Fugs, 13th Floor Elevators and Dan Hicks for 2 dollars and I'll be there. ...and by the way...Phil Ochs was the real spokeman for a generation.

**467riverfix** · November-08-09, 10:41 PM

The thing about Dylan is - he's a journeyman entertainer. Many people probably don't realize this given his [[justified) exalted status. But the man has always craved to be an entertainer, and still does. His career hasn't gone to his head. Play on, Bob!

**1KielsonDrive** · November-09-09, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by 467riverfix

The thing about Dylan is - he's a journeyman entertainer. Many people probably don't realize this given his [[justified) exalted status. But the man has always craved to be an entertainer, and still does. His career hasn't gone to his head. Play on, Bob!

I'm not saying Dylan isn't worth seeing. I am saying he's not worth seeing at that price. For me. If someone wants to pay it, more power to them [[and you). If, as you say, his career hasn't gone to his head and he's a journeyman entertainer, I'm assuming he's really good, really in to it and really wants to present his music to the public. Much as most true artists must make their art. Then he should make himself available for a more reasonable price at a more reasonable venue. The Fox is not a reasonable venue. Why would an entertainer who loves what [[s)he's doing and wants to present a superior product/performance, play a house of that size and quality? I've seen players as important and as good as Dylan [[maybe not as famous) play smaller venues, for less amounts. A few examples come to mind - Richie Havens, Terry Callier, Pete Seeger, Ramblin Jack, Utah Phillips, Joe Pass, Merle Haggard, and most recently, Hank Jones. If you want to pay that price - good on you. Not I.

**Sstashmoo** · November-09-09, 09:48 AM

As good as Dylan? LOL Whatever. To each his own.

**1KielsonDrive** · November-09-09, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

As good as Dylan? LOL Whatever. To each his own.

Agreed. To each his own.

**1KielsonDrive** · November-09-09, 11:59 AM

Personally, as much as I like Dylan, I'd see Kenny Burrell, Tommy Flanagan [[RIP), BettyCarter[[RIP), Tony Bennett, Ralph Stanley, Joni Mitchell or a host of others in the right venue, before I'd consider seeing Dylan again. I'm not knocking him. I just got past the superstar, mega-event, and gigantic concert thing, long ago. As far as better or, as good as, or worse, or any other description - it's all relative. All things being equal, say a show at the Majestic and reasonable prices, I'd have difficulty deciding.

**1KielsonDrive** · November-09-09, 12:06 PM

I saw Charlie Louvin last winter at a coffee house in A2 for about 10 - 15 bucks. There was about 100 people there. It was a fabulous show. And very personal. This summer I saw Jeff Webber [[from the Traverse City area) with his pick-up band at the Ark for about 10 - 15 bucks. What a wonderful and personal evening. The music was as good as any I've ever heard. Artists and concerts have been co-opted by the bigger is better movement. Unfortunately, most of those artists were the anti-establishment crowd of the 50's, 60's, 70's and beyond. They're still preaching revolution while swiping your bucks.

**gazhekwe** · November-09-09, 12:14 PM

I just remembered! That concert Friday was billed as promoting Dylan's new Christmas CD. Not only was there nothing said or available about that, he didn't sing any of the songs from it. I was a little disappointed about that too.

I heard a review of the the Christmas CD, and some samples, on Fresh Air. It actually sounded pretty good. Some reviews apparently feel a bit insulted because they think Dylan is doing this to poke fun at us. Hmmmm. Does that sound like Bob? Could be. Still he does a nice job with the music. 'His voice sounds terrible' was another negative review. Hellooooo! Hasn't it always? It's just a different kind of terrible these days. Wouldn't be Dylan if sounded like Tony Bennett.

I like that all proceeds will go to charities.

http://www.rollingstone.com/reviews/...s_in_the_heart

**Grundyke** · November-09-09, 01:38 PM

I was very fortunate to have 4 of the best seats in the house so the standing was not a problem even though I am only 5'6". We actually were in the very first row off to the right in the orchestra pit and everyone was standing [[again behind me so not a problem). My girlfriend who is 6 foot tall [[place joke here, lol) even commented on the fact that everyone around us felt the need to stand and crowd. I am 34 and love Dylan but I must say I was not really moved or unmoved. The band was great and Dylan was good as well for a guy his age. I was not 100% happy with the song selection neither was anyone else in my party. But I must say we were literally 15 foot away from a legend and the other 3 in my group have never seen him [[i've seen him 1 other time) and they were in awe. That made it worth it to me. I thought the show was a little short as well. As far as the price goes I cannot really say [[i do know what they were selling for though) as I received the tickets through a favor [[well appreciated) and was fortunate enough not to pay. On a side not I was also there for Leonard Cohen with my girlfriend and sat in the front row of the main floor. I love Leonard Cohen's music and that being put aside his show blew Dylan's out of the water! The whole atmosphere right down to the patron's was far better. I know they have two different kinds of followers for the most part but the LC show was far more classier with the intermission and everything. When I go to places like this I was taught to dress and have class, again I understand about the people who listen to Dylan but when I go to the Fox and am sitting in the pit drinking $7.50 jigger poured drinks [[not counting tip) it is hard for me to be happy with the guys standing all around me spilling there $8 beers all over us while wearing CMU hoodies and jeans they just came from work in [[literally one guy had roofing tar all over his jeans)! Plus these guys kept pushing through every 5 minutes to go get more beer, keep in mind we are 15 foot from Dylan in the pit. People have no class or desire for class anymore! In fact my younger girlfriend and her friend who is only 20 [[place more jokes here) was by far the classiest most well dressed ladies in the pit and I am not being biased in saying that. Just my thoughts on the evening sorry for the long post.

**eno** · November-09-09, 02:32 PM

Thanks for sharing your experience with us and being so candid. Did the audience for Leonard Cohen remain standing during his entire show like they apparently did for Dylan? I know what you mean about drinkers who find it more important to get the next drink rather than watch and listen to the performance. How do you get such good seats for the shows you mention?

**Grundyke** · November-09-09, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by eno

Thanks for sharing your experience with us and being so candid. Did the audience for Leonard Cohen remain standing during his entire show like they apparently did for Dylan? I know what you mean about drinkers who find it more important to get the next drink rather than watch and listen to the performance. How do you get such good seats for the shows you mention?

No, the audience did not stay standing for the LC show, only when he received standing ovations. Which for a man of his age and accomplishments [[I believe he is 75), they were well deserved. The LC show was longer and had an intermission with I believe two encores plus the Webb Sisters singing. The class of people in general at the LC show were hands down better. Of course this is a generalization and I do realize there is different types of fans but there is a correct way to go out, especially to an event at an old theatre. After all we are not talking about the hill at Pine Knob, excuse me DTE! I don't care if you do not have a lot of money but put some close on that do not smell and have stains all over them. A clean t-shirt is better than the guy with the Murray's auto t-shirt on that was behind me. Again, we were sitting in the orchestra pit and I realize these people paid there money but have some dignity and self respect as you are in front of everybody. The drinking really did not bother me except that when you are in the pit with the railing all around it, it is a nuisance pushing through every five minutes for beer, and more disrespectful for the musician singing 15 feet from you. If it was a comedy show they would get blasted by the comedian. As far as how I got the tickets, I bought them on Stubhub for LC at a great price actually and for the Dylan tickets a guy I have known for years has the four seats and he was not using them and offered them to me. I am not poor but far from wealthy and I must say we really felt special just to be sitting there. It could have only been better if the people around us had more class, respect for themselves and others around them.

**eno** · November-09-09, 06:28 PM

Thanks again for the insight on your experience. I don't imagine smoking is allowed in the Fox Theatre. I haven't been there for a while now. I hope the lack of decorum by some audience members didn't spoil your evening.

My daughter took her mother to see the Nutcracker Suite at the Fox a few years ago. There were some yahoos, whose wives must have made them take them out for the evening, who were making quips about the show, talking and generally being a nuisance. My daughter glared at them and eventually asked them to be quiet. They poured what was left of their beers out on top of her head. The yahoos split. Summoning the sullen security guards and the apathetic ushers proved worthless.

**gazhekwe** · November-09-09, 06:32 PM

I had a chat with Fox Customer Service today. While very apologetic that I had spent almost $200 for my seats and could not see the show, the attitude was very much, What did you expect? That's the way Rock and Roll audiences are. And NO we are not going to take any proactive action. So sorry. The performers like seeing people stand up the whole show. Someone called today and complained she was asked to sit down, while everyone else was standing up. So I guess that makes everything OK.

But wait! When I explained that I am both short and unable to stand for long periods, and asked if they would consider a seating section in front just for people who cannot or do not want to stand for the show, she said she would present that suggestion! To whom, I don't know.

When I mentioned that I was unable to stand for the whole show, she brought up the accessible seating policy the Fox has. There is a number you can call to ask about seating if you have issues requiring seating accommodation. 313-471-3211 Accessible Seating, leave a message and they are supposed to call you back.

NOTE: Accommodation for disabilities is required by state law. I do not have a disability, but a temporary condition which is not covered by the law, also, how would I have known I would need accommodation? I had no clue people would be allowed to stand in front of seated people for the entire show. The suggestion was, in the future, call and ask if this would be show where people were expected to stand, and if so, ask for accessible seating so I can see the show.

PS, I hadn't thought of Dylan as a rock performer.

**ridgeabilly** · November-09-09, 07:17 PM

Caught Robert Zimmeramn back in 66 or 67 at the Masonic when he first came to town with his electric outfit. People were shouting "We want Dylan" and some draft cards were burned. There was a charge in the air. The music wasn't so damn benign back then. Now they do some lame video and then write the "music" for it.

Sludgedaddy · November-09-09, 07:35 PM

"Is it Rolling,Bob?"........For $200 a ticket, I'm Rollin',man!

Gazhekwe, sorry about your bad expierience at the above mentioned venue, it appears the Times are A-Changin' for the worse. At least you didn't get trampled to death by drug induced zombies at a Who concert.

"Rock Over London........Rock on Chicago......White Castle's.....What You Crave"
John Wesley Willis

**1KielsonDrive** · November-10-09, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by Sludgedaddy

"Is it Rolling,Bob?"........For $200 a ticket, I'm Rollin',man!

Gazhekwe, sorry about your bad expierience at the above mentioned venue, it appears the Times are A-Changin' for the worse. At least you didn't get trampled to death by drug induced zombies at a Who concert.

"Rock Over London........Rock on Chicago......White Castle's.....What You Crave"
John Wesley Willis

Funny, Sludgedaddy.

**Lloyd** · November-11-09, 08:08 AM

Dylan is a legend, no doubt, but I agree that I would never pay the price that's now being asked to see him. As for the Fox as a venue for concerts... I'm old school but I still long for the <now burned out> Soup Kitchen Saloon. For a few bucks you and a couple hundred people got to really enjoy some great music by absolute legends. Back in the day, I saw Willie Dixon, Luther Allison, Marcia Ball, Gatemouth Brown and on and on and on. Venues like that, with big names playing at them, are history.

**Sstashmoo** · November-11-09, 09:36 AM

The Fox is no good for concerts. The old State next door. is/was the best venue in Detroit for concerts. Crank up the smoke machines, that place is/was hilarious, but fun.

**gazhekwe** · November-11-09, 10:04 AM

I agree, the Fox was unsatisfactory. Even if everyone had remained seated, there is still the sound issue. For me, it was OK for the music, but lousy for the voice. My husband is more of a music person, and he complained that he could not distinguish the guitars. It could have been the way Dylan had it set up, but then there was that echo off the back wall.

Ravine · November-11-09, 02:40 PM

I love Dylan as an artist and I get the feeling that, at this point, he just wants to be like one of his heroes, Woody Guthrie, a simple American Folk Singer, a troubadour singing his own stuff [[and, occasionally, other folk songs) to the people. No deep message, no ominous portent, none of that, just entertaining. [[Actually, I think that is about all he wanted in the first place, but things got out of hand.)

And that's great. But, if that's what he wants, I think Bob should make an effort to have his "people" scope out, in advance, venues where he could carry off that simple goal in a more simple, enjoyable way. I'm not saying he should play three-week engagements in coffee houses, but it seems like-- especially since I cannot imagine that money can be too much of an issue for Bob-- there has to be a happy medium where he can sing to more than a few dozen people, but attain an intimacy [[and audial fidelity) greater than what you get in cavernous auditoriums where the sound is awful and there are hundreds of classless knuckle-draggers who see nothing wrong with blocking the view of the people behind them.
Do it for the people, Bob... Or, are you just a greedy capitalist like the bums you used to sing against?

**1KielsonDrive** · November-11-09, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Lloyd

Dylan is a legend, no doubt, but I agree that I would never pay the price that's now being asked to see him. As for the Fox as a venue for concerts... I'm old school but I still long for the <now burned out> Soup Kitchen Saloon. For a few bucks you and a couple hundred people got to really enjoy some great music by absolute legends. Back in the day, I saw Willie Dixon, Luther Allison, Marcia Ball, Gatemouth Brown and on and on and on. Venues like that, with big names playing at them, are history.

Thanks Lloyd. That's a great example of what I'm talking about. And you named some of the greats.

**1KielsonDrive** · November-11-09, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by Ravine

I love Dylan as an artist and I get the feeling that, at this point, he just wants to be like one of his heroes, Woody Guthrie, a simple American Folk Singer, a troubadour singing his own stuff [[and, occasionally, other folk songs) to the people. No deep message, no ominous portent, none of that, just entertaining. [[Actually, I think that is about all he wanted in the first place, but things got out of hand.)

And that's great. But, if that's what he wants, I think Bob should make an effort to have his "people" scope out, in advance, venues where he could carry off that simple goal in a more simple, enjoyable way. I'm not saying he should play three-week engagements in coffee houses, but it seems like-- especially since I cannot imagine that money can be too much of an issue for Bob-- there has to be a happy medium where he can sing to more than a few dozen people, but attain an intimacy [[and audial fidelity) greater than what you get in cavernous auditoriums where the sound is awful and there are hundreds of classless knuckle-draggers who see nothing wrong with blocking the view of the people behind them.
Do it for the people, Bob... Or, are you just a greedy capitalist like the bums you used to sing against?

Thank you Ravine. I couldn't have, and didn't, say it any better.