Light Rail Funding Hits Possible Snag

[EMG]

The people of Detroit and the rest of Michigan wants light rail but the politicians, unions, and special interest groups may put a stumbling block in front of the idea

Unless things have dramatically changed in the 9 years since I've left [[and the vast majority of posts I've seen on these forums would suggest otherwise), I would be willing to bet that the actual truth more likely comes closer to: "The residents of Detroit would love to have the suburbs build them a light-rail system, but the majority of the rest of Michigan isn't willing to pay for something it's never going to use."

[hudkina]

Yeah. Like how I have to pay for M-59 and M-53 even though I'm never going to use them.

[Lorax]

This is precisely the kind of "separate but unequal" bullshit that has so polarized the region for decades. Keeping it up will only result in the spread of urban blight and sprawl.

Mass transit does one very important thing- it makes it easier for everyone to get around without a car. Another thing it does, is open up neighborhoods on the line to redevelopment and stabilizing property values.

The problem is political- Oakland county is still stuck in this us vs. them mentality, and LBP has been around far too long, just like Orville Hubbard was in Dearborn, or Coleman Young in Detroit- time to go.

Young people today don't have the same narrow view of the world that these older generations do. Most I know would gladly use a broad, comprehensive streetcar/rail system from Detoit to Pontiac and beyond.

If anything it would force the region to think regionally for a change. The alternative is a creeping paralysis of development and getting nowhere fast.

[hybridy]

Woodward light rail project gets matching-funds approval from Senate

The Woodward light rail project in Detroit inched another step toward reality this weekend, as the U.S. Senate approved a $1.1 trillion spending bill that includes a provision allowing the city to consider private investment as matching funds needed to secure federal backing.

In the first phase of the project, private investors -- including Roger Penske, Peter Karmanos Jr., Dan Gilbert and Mike Illitch -- will build a rail line that runs along Woodward Avenue from Hart Plaza to the New Center area.

The city, with the help of federal funding approved Sunday, eventually will continue the line from Grand Boulevard to Eight Mile.

Sen. Carl Levin authored the provision in the Senate bill, noting before the Sunday vote that the project "would be huge boost" to the economically-slumping city.

"I’m gratified the conference committee chose to accept my provision that requires the Federal Transit Administration to consider private funds as the local match when considering the Woodward light rail project," he said. "I will do all I can to see this project through to its construction.”

The House approved a similar provision last week, and Rep. Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick said first-phase construction could begin this summer.

WWJ reports the bill also includes $3.5 million for the Ann Arbor to Detroit Regional Rail project and $1.3 million for Troy and Birmingham's Multi-Modal Transit Center.

President Barack Obama is expected to sign the spending bill this week.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...roject_ge.html

if this is old news i apologize in advance

[Whitehouse]

Posting the obligatory link.
http://www.woodwardlightrail.com/Home.html


[[Would look nice!)

Animation.

What I'm missing in the animation.... How do you get to the platform? I see no zebracrossings in the animation, or are there underground connections?

[MichMatters]

I'm pretty sure that picture is of Houston system, which is notorious for poor/ineffective signage an signaling and the like. You can see the crosswalks in the photo, but they aren't properly marked.

[dtowncitylover]

Posting the obligatory link.
http://www.woodwardlightrail.com/Home.html


[[Would look nice!)

Animation.

What I'm missing in the animation.... How do you get to the platform? I see no zebracrossings in the animation, or are there underground connections?

I was always under the impression that the crossing will be the cross walk. The State Fair stop, however has an overpass. I also understand, the payment might be the honor system, not as bad as it sounds though.

[casscorridor]

I don't see not having inner-city rail in Oakland County as that big of a problem. Sure, it would be nice, but is it neccesary? The alternative could be called suburban rail [[commuter) and could serve the same purpose, and do it better and faster. Have stations in Pontiac, Birmingham, Royal Oak, Ferndale, Highland Park, Hamtramck, New Center and Michigan Central Station. This would be the same as the rail to Ann Arbor with [[eventually) stops in East Dearborn, West Dearborn, Inkster, Wayne, Canton, Willow Run, Ypsilanti and Ann Arbor. Other rail corridors could be retrofitted so they can handle passanger rail. Such as a rail directly to the airport. The "airport" stop on the Detroit-Ann Arbor line is a joke. It is located 3 or 4 miles north of the airport, while there is a rail corridor that touches the actual airport just north of the north terminal, along I-94. Have only 1 or 2 stations between here and MSC and we could have a real rail link to the airport. No faux connection via 20min shuttle, followed by 30-40min train ride.

As far as light-rail, I really think it is funny that almost everyone who thinks after the first two phases [[Downtown to New Center followed by New Center to 8 Mile) thinks that the logical next step is 8 mile to Royal Oak. On the contrary, that extention, although definatly worthy for in long-range plans, should come after, not before, an expansion down Jefferson Ave, Gratiot Ave, Grand River Ave, Michigan Ave and Fort Street.

So Phase I = Downtown [[station TBA) to New Center/Grand Blvd Station
Phase II = New Center/Grand Blvd Station to Fairgrounds Station
Phase III = Jefferson Ave from Woodward Ave to Crane Street [[or even Alter Rd)

Why do I think Jefferson should come after the extention to 8 mile? Because Jefferson Ave is very dense and urban and there is tremedeous development potential that could be met through transit.

[Whitehouse]

The Dutch city of The Hague has a lightrail system to neighbouring city Zoetermeer as well a connection to Rotterdam. Within city limits the streetcars run like streetcars and outside the citylimit they reach 100km/hour. Here are those cars.

This was a 2004 projection.


Mind you, most of the track was excisting streetcar tracks. The tracks to Zoetermeer and Rotterdam were mostly excisting traintracks, same gauge. Some new stations had to be constructed for the line.

And this is what it looks like in operation.


One of the more spectacular additions in the lightrail system. Those black birds are there to prevent birdstrikes against the glass. There's no grafitti [[yet. grin.... ).


Compare that with a normal The Hague streetcar.Main difference,apart from appearance, is that the lightrail has doors on both sides. The platforms are sometimes on the other side.

[Tig3rzhark]

I like the way those look.

I know that some people have mentioned this before, but there is a possibility that the People Mover can be used as a loop system for some routes similar to Chicago.

It would be ridiculous for the proposed M1 rail to start at Hart Plaza when we already have the People Mover covering the downtown area south of Grand Circus Park. The M1 rail should start at Grand Circus Park and head north [[in due time) toward Pontiac. In fact there obviously should be light rail for M-1, M-3, M-5, US-12, and M-85, with streetcar usage on Jefferson Ave.

I'm well aware that the building of a decent transit system is going to take years, but at the same time, I really hope that it is going to be done right.

[Whitehouse]

Here's that tube on streetlevel.
You might expect this contraption to create an enormous ammount of noise. I can tell you, you hardly hear a lightrail car pass.

[Hypestyles]

This is precisely the kind of "separate but unequal" bullshit that has so polarized the region for decades. Keeping it up will only result in the spread of urban blight and sprawl.

Mass transit does one very important thing- it makes it easier for everyone to get around without a car. Another thing it does, is open up neighborhoods on the line to redevelopment and stabilizing property values.

The problem is political- Oakland county is still stuck in this us vs. them mentality, and LBP has been around far too long, just like Orville Hubbard was in Dearborn, or Coleman Young in Detroit- time to go.

Young people today don't have the same narrow view of the world that these older generations do. Most I know would gladly use a broad, comprehensive streetcar/rail system from Detoit to Pontiac and beyond.

If anything it would force the region to think regionally for a change. The alternative is a creeping paralysis of development and getting nowhere fast.

so what democrat realistically has a chance of unseating patterson? just curious..

...I really hope that the transit can be implemented on a large scale..

[Hermod]

sometimes on the other side.

If you look at some old photos, the Detroit United Railway ran up the grassy median on Woodward through Oakland county to Pontiac. Did you ever wonder why the divider on Woodard up there is a\so wide?

[Hermod]

Detroit had a very complete light rail system. It had a very complete regional light rail system. If Detroit cannot support a light rail system with a population of 1.8 million, how can it support one with a population of 0.8 million [[and dropping). FWIW, I am a railroad and streetcar enthusiast.

[dtowncitylover]

Detroit had a very complete light rail system. It had a very complete regional light rail system. If Detroit cannot support a light rail system with a population of 1.8 million, how can it support one with a population of 0.8 million [[and dropping). FWIW, I am a railroad and streetcar enthusiast.

This is old hat. Detroit could support a streetcar system, but the politicians and their auto buddies decided that that wasn't in their interest. Trust me, my great grandparents and grandparents loved the streetcar and for some that's they only way they got around. Salt Lake, Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis are cities smaller than Detroit that have light rail and all are doing exceptionally well with theirs. Of course, as stated 100000000000000x before, light rail is not the end all of Detroit's rebound, but it can allow us to attract new citizens who see Detroit not all about cars anymore, but also about mass transit.

[Hermod]

This is old hat. Detroit could support a streetcar system, but the politicians and their auto buddies decided that that wasn't in their interest. Trust me, my great grandparents and grandparents loved the streetcar and for some that's they only way they got around. Salt Lake, Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis are cities smaller than Detroit that have light rail and all are doing exceptionally well with theirs. Of course, as stated 100000000000000x before, light rail is not the end all of Detroit's rebound, but it can allow us to attract new citizens who see Detroit not all about cars anymore, but also about mass transit.

The problem is that the traffic patterns have changed both in Detroit and in the suburbs. Most traffic problems to be solved by light rail move east to west and north to south. It doesn't move radially toward downtown Detroit. The guy living on the lake in Mt Clemens or St Clair Shores would want light rail to take him to work in Southfield He doesn't need light rail down Jefferson to downtown. An elevated railroad over I-94 would make more sense for Detroit and the burbs.

.

[dtowncitylover]

The problem is that the traffic patterns have changed both in Detroit and in the suburbs. Most traffic problems to be solved by light rail move east to west and north to south. It doesn't move radially toward downtown Detroit. The guy living on the lake in Mt Clemens or St Clair Shores would want light rail to take him to work in Southfield He doesn't need light rail down Jefferson to downtown. An elevated railroad over I-94 would make more sense for Detroit and the burbs.

.

See the problem there is that we would be enabling suburban sprawl. We don't want that. We are already beginning to see that suburban sprawl is not sustainable. That one guy may not need light rail down Jefferson but the thousands who work/live downtown or work/live along the corridor do. I'm sure that guy is happy with car anyways, sure he may not need for work, but he might use it for a trip downtown.

[Detroit500]

the bigger concern I have is this Birmingham Transit center being so far away from downtown. What is the point of a transit facility if you need a car to get there?

My bigger desire is for AMTRAK to have more routes and opportunities for travel -- imagine getting from Detroit to Chicago in 90 minutes or 2 hours, or imagine the Detroit rail station being able to quickly get you to New York in about 6 hours. This is what our country should be seriously trying to accomplish.

[Hermod]

See the problem there is that we would be enabling suburban sprawl. We don't want that. We are already beginning to see that suburban sprawl is not sustainable. That one guy may not need light rail down Jefferson but the thousands who work/live downtown or work/live along the corridor do. I'm sure that guy is happy with car anyways, sure he may not need for work, but he might use it for a trip downtown.

As was said about streetcars and interurbans [[that ship has sailed), the same could be said about suburban sprawl. We have sixty-five years of sprawl and a bunch of light rail lines radiating out to 8-mile and running past "the ruins of Detroit" is not going to repopulate downtown. Downtown would be totally dead if Henry the Deuce hadn't strong-armed a bunch of Ford dependent accountants and law firms to move into RenCen.

My folks moved out in 1954. My mother still went downtown [[using the well-designed John R. and Brush one-way streets with timed traffic signals). Once JL Hudson's closed, my folks rarely went south of 8-mile except for the Auto Show in Cobo Hall.

[Mikeg]

Obama Administration Proposes Major Public Transportation Policy Shift to Highlight Livability

Changes Include Economic Development and Environmental Benefits

01-13-10


In a dramatic change from existing policy, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood today proposed that new funding guidelines for major transit projects be based on livability issues such as economic development opportunities and environmental benefits, in addition to cost and time saved, which are currently the primary criteria.


In remarks at the Transportation Research Board annual meeting, the Secretary announced the Obama Administration’s plans to change how projects are selected to receive federal financial assistance in the Federal Transit Administration’s [[FTA) New Starts and Small Starts programs. As part of this initiative, the FTA will immediately rescind budget restrictions issued by the Bush Administration in March of 2005 that focused primarily on how much a project shortened commute times in comparison to its cost.


[read the rest]

[Whitehouse]

You can read it any way you want it, but is this a good development? I'm a little confused.

[Mikeg]

It expands the cost-benefit analysis to include additional criteria such as the impact a proposed transit project might have on private property values, the environment, etc. A project that might be marginally justified under the old rules might now rise higher up the list for approval of federal funds for new transit projects.

In some quarters this will be considered good news [[particularly since it rolls back a decision made by the so-called "smirking chimp"), but in practice, every applicant for funding will quickly learn to game the system with generous estimates for these added, nebulous criteria.

[ghettopalmetto]

In some quarters this will be considered good news [[particularly since it rolls back a decision made by the so-called "smirking chimp"), but in practice, every applicant for funding will quickly learn to game the system with generous estimates for these added, nebulous criteria.

If localities attempt to "game" the system, they'll be quickly found out, as all applications for federal transit funding are subject to federal review for compliance with the funding criteria. I believe the criteria will be spelled out in FTA policy. That makes it anything but nebulous.

It's about time we have an administration that understands that running a lousy bus down a congested six-lane freeway isn't going to cut it. This livability criteria is going to ensure that transit dollars are spent in areas sufficiently populated to support transit services. Conservatives should be rejoicing, as the livability criteria will cut down on wasteful and overdesigned projects like Metrorail to Dulles Airport, provide transportation choices in our urban areas, and put money into transit instead of expensive ever-widening freeways, which have no long-term benefit.

[MichMatters]

You can read it any way you want it, but is this a good development? I'm a little confused.

Oh yes this is good. Go read it, again. Instead of just focusing on time saved en route to somewhere and costs as the primary ways to award federal funds for projects, the criteria is being made FAR more comprehensive and all-encompassing.

[Hermod]

If localities attempt to "game" the system, they'll be quickly found out, as all applications for federal transit funding are subject to federal review for compliance with the funding criteria. I believe the criteria will be spelled out in FTA policy. That makes it anything but nebulous.

It's about time we have an administration that understands that running a lousy bus down a congested six-lane freeway isn't going to cut it. This livability criteria is going to ensure that transit dollars are spent in areas sufficiently populated to support transit services. Conservatives should be rejoicing, as the livability criteria will cut down on wasteful and overdesigned projects like Metrorail to Dulles Airport, provide transportation choices in our urban areas, and put money into transit instead of expensive ever-widening freeways, which have no long-term benefit.

Having lived in the DC area, expansion of Metrorail with a line to Dulles, a line to BWI, a line to Frederick, MD, and a line to Fredericksburg, VA is a worthy goal to pursue. It will get people out of their cars and on to the trains. Metrorail also need to run 24 hours. Metrorail is great to get from one place to another. Metrorail would be cheaper if they didn't want to build the Taj Mahal every time they built a station. The stations could be more austere and still serve the purpose.