Light Rail Funding Hits Possible Snag

**j to the jeremy** · December-13-09, 07:32 PM

Agreed. Schoolchildren up at 3:30 to catch buses, people denied work because jobs don't think DDOT is "adequate transportation", etc. are things that should not happen. I hear mass transit brought up as a reason that people will not move to this city/ do not think of us as a "real city" almost every time the subject comes up..

MichMatters · December-13-09, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by tkelly1986

Quick question about the financing from the Senate bill going toward the Woodward light rail line: a few articles say they are accepting the $120 in private funds for the first phase as matching grants. Does this mean that it only matches the Hart Plaza to Midtown grant or does this mean the entire Hart Plaza to 8 mile will be able to break ground right away?

This is only for the privately developed portion of the line.

**Brainiac** · December-13-09, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by j to the jeremy

Agreed. Schoolchildren up at 3:30 to catch buses, people denied work because jobs don't think DDOT is "adequate transportation", etc. are things that should not happen. I hear mass transit brought up as a reason that people will not move to this city/ do not think of us as a "real city" almost every time the subject comes up..

You guys are out of your mind. People definitely will not move to Detroit - but not because they can't get around!

The people moving to the suburbs aren't doing so because the bus system is so much better.

Rethink your PRIORITIES!!!

**Brainiac** · December-13-09, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

Now you go spend a week riding DDOT everywhere you need to go, and then come back on here and say "the transportation system here is amazing" with a straight face. ... It's not like the COD is laying off police officers or cutting incentive packages to pay for this. If we didn't spend this money on light rail, it would disappear.

Two responses... I've been forced to ride DDOT and I agree it is better to have a $500 car that barely runs. That does not mean light rail is the fix - or - that even the pathetic DDOT is top priority to put $ into.

And I do not agree that the money would "disappear" if the same level of energy and justification was applied to better purposes.

Bearinabox · December-13-09, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by Brainiac

The people moving to the suburbs aren't doing so because the bus system is so much better.

Rethink your PRIORITIES!!!

What about the people moving to New York or Chicago? Expand your HORIZONS!!!

**Brainiac** · December-13-09, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

What about the people moving to New York or Chicago? Expand your HORIZONS!!!

Or Dallas or Phoenix or anywhere else. They're saying - thank God for the job.

They are NOT saying thank God for the light rail.

Bearinabox · December-13-09, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Brainiac

Two responses... I've been forced to ride DDOT and I agree it is better to have a $500 car that barely runs. That does not mean light rail is the fix - or - that even the pathetic DDOT is top priority to put $ into.

You think DDOT is the top priority? Are you serious? Look at DDOT's funding levels compared to any other big-city transit system in the country. DDOT is the absolute bottom of the barrel when it comes to $ being put into it, and that's exactly why it's so, as you put it, pathetic. Light rail in and of itself won't solve that fundamental problem, but it is a vastly more appropriate mode of transportation than buses for a corridor like Woodward. An all-bus system in a city the size of Detroit is horribly inefficient. Improve it one step at a time, and eventually it won't be pathetic anymore.

And I do not agree that the money would "disappear" if the same level of energy and justification was applied to better purposes.

This is not a matter of opinion. Either we spend this money on light rail, or it isn't ours to spend.

Bearinabox · December-13-09, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by Brainiac

Or Dallas or Phoenix or anywhere else. They're saying - thank God for the job.

They are NOT saying thank God for the light rail.

Different people move for different reasons. Look at 23-year-old college grads instead of 45-year-old laid-off autoworkers, and you might be surprised by what you find.

**Brainiac** · December-13-09, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

You think DDOT is the top priority?

Thanks for letting me clarify. My point was that it is not a top priority, and light rail is a very low priority.

Some cities are duped into building stadiums because of free money. Ask Pontiac how that worked out.

Seattle is building a multi-billion dollar light rail. They're hugely in debt over it.

Bearinabox · December-13-09, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Brainiac

Thanks for letting me clarify. My point was that it is not a top priority, and light rail is a very low priority.

Indeed it is, otherwise we wouldn't be the last big city in the country to take a first tentative baby step toward finally having a decent transit system.

Seattle is building a multi-billion dollar light rail. They're hugely in debt over it.

I believe that's called an "investment."

**Brainiac** · December-13-09, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

I believe that's called an "investment."

Sure. Detroit can't afford that. [[Neither can Seattle, and with its only route being from airport to downtown, it has done nothing to address their traffic woes.)

If Detroit can absorb cost overruns and long term maintenance, and crime is at a much more reasonable level, education is not the worst in the country, and the business economy is stirring once again in the city and folks are coming back, especially from Ann Arbor - then yeah let's build light rail.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-13-09, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Brainiac

Sure. Detroit can't afford that. [[Neither can Seattle, and with its only route being from airport to downtown, it has done nothing to address their traffic woes.)

If Detroit can absorb cost overruns and long term maintenance, and crime is at a much more reasonable level, education is not the worst in the country, and the business economy is stirring once again in the city and folks are coming back, especially from Ann Arbor - then yeah let's build light rail.

More excuses to wait for "something" to happen. Please step aside.

Bearinabox · December-13-09, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by Brainiac

Sure. Detroit can't afford that. [[Neither can Seattle, and with its only route being from airport to downtown, it has done nothing to address their traffic woes.)

Why do you keep obsessing over traffic jams? The purpose of a line from downtown to the airport is not to eliminate traffic jams, it's to allow people to get to the airport. In Detroit, that trip takes about 80 minutes by bus--I certainly wouldn't mind a better option.

If Detroit can absorb cost overruns and long term maintenance, and crime is at a much more reasonable level, education is not the worst in the country, and the business economy is stirring once again in the city and folks are coming back, especially from Ann Arbor - then yeah let's build light rail.

So we have to fix everything before we can fix anything? That's a good way not to get anywhere.

MichMatters · December-13-09, 10:23 PM

The rail, and very soon the entire transit system, is to be paid into and managed by a regional authority. The idea that Detroit is shouldering this burden, alone, is crazy as is the idea that cities can only, and should only, invest when they are only investing their own money. If there is money available from the feds to get this rolling in a major way [[and there is no promise that this money will be available down the road in the near future), and the region is finally getting its act together, this is more than worthwhile.

Regardless, you're just going to have to get used to this very close to being a reality. Sorry. Now, please step aside Brainiac [[Ha! You wish) while true progress and reality pass you by.

**dtowncitylover** · December-14-09, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Brainiac

If Detroit needed light rail, there should be signs such as never-ending traffic nightmeres, like LA or Seattle. I-94 barely has a rush hour in its most dense area.

94 has no rush hour!?!?!?! AHAHAHAHA. Try going form the west side to the east side and back around, let's say, 7:30 am or 5 pm and tell me there's no rush hour. The Edsel Ford is definitely one of the worst freeways for congestion.

**stasu1213** · December-17-09, 06:45 AM

The people of Detroit and the rest of Michigan wants light rail but the politicians, unions, and special interest groups may put a stumbling block in front of the idea

**ghettopalmetto** · December-17-09, 12:43 PM

While some in Detroit still question the need to even build a viable transit system, sprawling Houston moves forward.

http://www.rtands.com/newsflash/fta-...l-project.html

METRO officials were elated with the good news, and its timing. "This is a great holiday present for Houstonians. The New Year is going to be full of activity as the University corridor has achieved another major milestone." said Frank J. Wilson, METRO president and CEO. Work along three other light rail transit corridors, also approved in the 2003 voter referendum, is already under way.

**Brainiac** · December-20-09, 10:40 AM

Hey y'all... here are some videos to give you an extreme example to get the point across of what happens when "leaders" build without demand. This is typical of supply without demand of consumption.

http://video.iptv.org/video/1218530801
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h7V3Twb-Qk

Think about the People Mover.

Nobody is presenting data on the consumer need for a project of this scale. The above justifications are based on the builder-side of the coin - such as a handout "must be used", everyone else is doing it, and so on.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-20-09, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Brainiac

Hey y'all... here are some videos to give you an extreme example to get the point across of what happens when "leaders" build without demand. This is typical of supply without demand of consumption.

http://video.iptv.org/video/1218530801
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h7V3Twb-Qk

Think about the People Mover.

Nobody is presenting data on the consumer need for a project of this scale. The above justifications are based on the builder-side of the coin - such as a handout "must be used", everyone else is doing it, and so on.

How do you know there's no demand?

Bearinabox · December-20-09, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Brainiac

Think about the People Mover.

The problem with the People Mover is that it doesn't go anywhere. Pick any two People Mover stations, odds are you'll be able to walk between them faster than you'll be able to take the People Mover. Not in any way relevant to this project.

Nobody is presenting data on the consumer need for a project of this scale.

Here and here. Also, ride the Woodward bus sometime and use your eyes.

The above justifications are based on the builder-side of the coin - such as a handout "must be used", everyone else is doing it, and so on.

Nice selective reading there. It's pretty clear you have no interest in a rational debate on this issue.

Lorax · December-20-09, 11:11 AM

There is only one way any rail line, light or otherwise will be built and that is through

REGIONALIZATION.

That is the operative word here, and until Detroit and the tri-county area stand behind this together, it will never get done.

**Gsgeorge** · December-20-09, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Brainiac

Hey y'all... here are some videos to give you an extreme example to get the point across of what happens when "leaders" build without demand. This is typical of supply without demand of consumption.

http://video.iptv.org/video/1218530801
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h7V3Twb-Qk

Think about the People Mover.

Nobody is presenting data on the consumer need for a project of this scale. The above justifications are based on the builder-side of the coin - such as a handout "must be used", everyone else is doing it, and so on.

These are hardly comparable to the LR system proposed for Woodward. While interesting, you've missed the point entirely. Both of these things were built in China, on a tremendously huge scale -- each one the size of a whole city. We're talking about putting in a transit line through an already existing city. Ride the Woodward bus some time and usually it is 60%-100% full. Midtown is one of the fastest-growing zip codes in the state of Michigan. The videos above are certainly examples of "building without demand", but we're talking on the scale of a whole city--towers, offices, residences, highways. How can we use this to compare to the Woodward light rail? We can't.

**runnerXT** · December-21-09, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by Brainiac

Hey y'all... here are some videos to give you an extreme example to get the point across of what happens when "leaders" build without demand. This is typical of supply without demand of consumption.

http://video.iptv.org/video/1218530801
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h7V3Twb-Qk

Think about the People Mover.

Nobody is presenting data on the consumer need for a project of this scale. The above justifications are based on the builder-side of the coin - such as a handout "must be used", everyone else is doing it, and so on.

thanks for the link to the empty shopping mall in China for why you are oppossed to light rail in Detroit.

this youtube video of a house's architecture in Argentina sums up why I am for the light rail in Detroit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYaG9V9hLhE

**Brainiac** · December-21-09, 04:31 PM

Guys - think a little more abstractly here. Would you agree that we should not build an expensive, unused system?

Is it at all possible that those in power will build such a system irrespective of demand?

No one has given me any confidence that it will get used.

What if the light rail gets built and doesn't get used? Then what?

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

The problem with the People Mover is that it doesn't go anywhere. Pick any two People Mover stations, odds are you'll be able to walk between them faster than you'll be able to take the People Mover. Not in any way relevant to this project.
Here and here. Also, ride the Woodward bus sometime and use your eyes.
Nice selective reading there. It's pretty clear you have no interest in a rational debate on this issue.

I did find this response useful. I followed the links and read the docs.

The articles, while interesting, still don't present data on need. They were created by the ones wanting to build the system, not exactly the most objective data. And they're full of blatent bias. Look at this one line:

"Current projections for population and employment in the Southeast Michigan Region show that the region will grow substantially through 2030"

What nonsense. Detroit is in steep decline and is showing no signs to the contrary.

The People Mover wasn't justified based on need, and it isn't in the right place or go where people need it to go.

Another poster had said that the one zip code was the fastest growing in Michigan. Big deal - Michigan as a whole is on the decline. It wouldn't take a lot of growth to be the fastest growing. And for all I know, "fastest growing" could mean "least decline."

Besides, "rooftop counts" [[all those population numbers) are orthagonal to potential riders.

A couple full bus anequdotes do not justify a multi-million dollar construction project with millions of cost overruns and millions of ongoing maintenance commitments.

I expect public busses be full. A full bus is not equal to light rail demand.

The reports show no analysis of alternatives. It askes potential riders to give up the bus, give up their car, conform to the locations of the train stations, conform to the schedule of the train and go only where the train will take you.

I see no mention of public opinion research. It makes no mention of validation experiments.

But boy look at all the detail when it comes to how the system will be built and how the money will be spent.

Meanwhile, I'd rather see light rail dollars go toward reducing crime and improving education.

But hey - like you guys have said, what the hell do I know, I have no interest in a rational debate.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-21-09, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Brainiac

But hey - like you guys have said, what the hell do I know, I have no interest in a rational debate.

At least you admit it.

This is real simple:

One third of Detroit residents have no access to an automobile.

The Woodward bus is DDOT's busiest route.

Rail has a lower cost of operation than diesel buses.

People will ride.

Stop being so chickenshit. If you're going to question the validity of the study, at least be man enough to ask specific questions and challenge specific assertions. Your bogeyman routine is the same crap that people have pulled in Detroit for the past 60 years. Well, if you're happy to see every other city in the U.S. move into the 21st Century and leave Detroit 100 years behind the curve, you're well on your way.