Light Rail Funding Hits Possible Snag

[Trainman]

The $2 Billion dollar NEW freeway lanes which will add 25 miles of new lanes and service drives will make traffic less congested and then the bues will move quicker and get stuck in traffic less and also by fixing roads SMART and DDOT will spend less on repairs. Then the buses will fill up and then we can pass a sales tax so tourists will pay and then people will take the bus to the train station and voila, the Detroit to AA and Woodward light rail will work.

Or, should we vote NO next August 2010 to stop the massive NEW freeways from being built in 2011?

[crawford]

Regarding funding, once the regional authority is established, wouldn't something like a 1/2 cent - 1 cent sales tax be implimented to fund these mass transit projects? That's what a lot of other regions do. OMG, I'd going to have to pay an extra 20 cents for groceries, 3 cents for a Burger King value meal, etc. I'm going to go broke! </sarcasm>

The vast majority of Metro Detroit voters will be unwilling to pay more in taxes for something that almost no one will use.
There is no demand or need for a Detroit-Ann Arbor train, and the Woodward Corridor already has more than adequate bus service.

If these transit projects do come to pass, it will only be because they were never put to a public vote.

[jjaba]

What's so different about Detroit without light rail and so many American cities with it?
Minneapolis, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, San Deigo, Dallas, Buffalo, Houston, Sacramento, Seattle, Portland [[Oregon), Denver, Miami, and so many heavy rail subway ops. like Atlanta, Chicago, Philadelphia, Cleveland, New York City, Boston, San Francisco, Los Angeles, plus all the Canadian cities with rail transit. Add another slew of cities connected by intercity Metro systems. What's wrong with Detroit in this 21st Century?

jjaba, remembering the Grand River Electric Buses.

[jjaba]

Many cities are getting back into streetcars again also.
jjaba, riding on the Oakman line, change at Manchester Yards for the Woodward.

[ghettopalmetto]

The vast majority of Metro Detroit voters will be unwilling to pay more in taxes for something that almost no one will use.
There is no demand or need for a Detroit-Ann Arbor train, and the Woodward Corridor already has more than adequate bus service.

If these transit projects do come to pass, it will only be because they were never put to a public vote.

If everything were put to a public vote, as you imply should be done, why the fuck do you elect people to represent you in government?

[crawford]

If everything were put to a public vote, as you imply should be done, why the fuck do you elect people to represent you in government?

Um, when did I advocate putting transit to a public vote? I don't.

To repeat, IF transit is put to a public vote, and IF it involves any form of tax increase, it has no chance.

[j to the jeremy]

I'm not so sure about that, there are a large number of people in the city who are dependent on public transit. I think even a tax increase for transit has a better chance at passing in Detroit than many other municipalities, especially if worded correctly on the ballot.

[Trainman]

Um, when did I advocate putting transit to a public vote? I don't.

To repeat, IF transit is put to a public vote, and IF it involves any form of tax increase, it has no chance.

Oh, Really?

Every single form of tax increase for mass transit has passed since the SMART property tax millage passed in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb County since 1995.

Even the Livonia Opt Out was a tax increase because we now pay more for less and that is a fact and not my opinion.

[maxx]

From what I read, light rail works best in highly populated areas like D.C. and Denver. Detroit has lost significant population so how could light rail work in Detroit when the bus system is having a hard time surviving?
http://americancity.org/magazine/art...ks-goodknight/

[Bearinabox]

From what I read, light rail works best in highly populated areas like D.C. and Denver. Detroit has lost significant population so how could light rail work in Detroit when the bus system is having a hard time surviving?
http://americancity.org/magazine/art...ks-goodknight/

Detroit has almost twice the population density of Denver. If Denver is dense enough for light rail to work, so is Detroit.

Besides, if the bus system "is having a hard time surviving," it has nothing to do with ridership. I haven't seen recent ridership numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if ridership had increased significantly given the recent economic troubles. The real problem is in the way the system is funded [[depending on the city's general fund, with its $300 million deficit, for much of its operating revenue), and that is a political issue, not an economic one.

[jjaba]

Many cities operate on the theory of Transit Oriented Deveopment. If you build it, they will come. Offer ten years free property tax abatement for new construction and see what happens. Property owners and developers love free. Use tax policy as an incentive like other cities do.

Start thinking about Urban Growth Boundaries which require in-fill new construction for growth instead of the typical Metro Detroit urban sprawl.

Tax employers on wages for transit and then have private employers, hospitals, schools and colleges, govt. workers, etc. getting free bus passes. Stop building free parking for workers which only causes more congestion, more freeways, more support of pollution.

Try it, the yield is good reliable public transit.

jjaba on the Westside.

[crawford]

Oh, Really?

Every single form of tax increase for mass transit has passed since the SMART property tax millage passed in Wayne, Oakland and Macomb County since 1995.

Even the Livonia Opt Out was a tax increase because we now pay more for less and that is a fact and not my opinion.

Most eligible communities have decided to not opt into SMART. They are voting to NOT tax themselves.

And those that DO tax themselves are voting for bus service for their community. serving their residents and employees.
Why would they automatically support light rail or commuter rail service in a community 30 miles away?

Why would Rochester Hills voters decide to tax themselves for a Detroit-Ann Arbor commuter rail line? How would this have any beneficial impact on the residents of Rochester Hills?

[BShea]

The latest, for those of you that [[thankfully) subscribe to Crain's:

M1 board to cooperate with public rail projects By Bill Shea

The board of directors of a privately funded effort to build a $125 million light-rail line on Detroit's Woodward Avenue voted to cooperate with two related public projects — a philosophical shift away from a desire to avoid the potential bureaucratic red tape associated with government funding.

M1 Rail Inc.'s board, headed by chairman Roger Penske of Penske Corp. and co-chairman Dan Gilbert of Quicken Loans Inc., voted in September to cooperate with the Detroit Department of Transportation and Michigan Department of Transportation on projects that affect the rail effort, said Matt Cullen, M1's CEO.

“There's no disputing that it adds some complexities and some steps,� Cullen said.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article...311089944/1069

[ghettopalmetto]

From what I read, light rail works best in highly populated areas like D.C. and Denver. Detroit has lost significant population so how could light rail work in Detroit when the bus system is having a hard time surviving?
http://americancity.org/magazine/art...ks-goodknight/

And interestingly enough, DC doesn't even have light rail!

But please. Proceed with the Litany of Excuses. If we all feel sorry for Detroit, and just wait around and rot a few more decades, *something* is bound to magically happen!

[dtowncitylover]

And interestingly enough, DC doesn't even have light rail!

But please. Proceed with the Litany of Excuses. If we all feel sorry for Detroit, and just wait around and rot a few more decades, *something* is bound to magically happen!

But please excuse the fact he said light rail would work in place like DC, not "DC has LR" and the fact DC has a metro system that is 1) one of the best subway systems in terms of timeliness and 2) it has spurred growth for the DC area.

[ghettopalmetto]

But please excuse the fact he said light rail would work in place like DC, not "DC has LR" and the fact DC has a metro system that is 1) one of the best subway systems in terms of timeliness and 2) it has spurred growth for the DC area.

Only because DC voted in the 1960s to use its federal highway funds to construct a subway instead of interstates. It was not a result of people giving up, making excuses, and waiting for shit to happen.

[esp1986]

Freep reports this hurdle has been cleared.

http://freep.com/article/20091210/NE...ight-rail-line

[MichMatters]

Freep reports this hurdle has been cleared.

http://freep.com/article/20091210/NE...ight-rail-line

Ole Cheeks pulled through, for once. But, to be fair, she's always been pretty pro-transit:

Kilpatrick said it required “months of intense negotiations” to get the amendment attached to the legislation and is confident investors should be able to “break ground on the project by this summer” as planned. Meanwhile, she said the project will still comply with federal rules.


“I have always been, and will remain, a strong and strident supporter of light rail in Michigan,” Kilpatrick said.

Now, as the Freep editorialized, today, there is work to be done at the state level to get the actual regional authority off the ground. They are pushing the legislature to pass the necessary bills before they recess and have the thing up and running by early next year.

[dtowncitylover]

I also read in the Daily Tribune that the planned transit center on the Troy-Bham border is also to get federal funding. I believe that it will one day be a stop/start for a streetcar or light rail down Big Beaver/Metro Pkwy.

[tkelly1986]

Quick question about the financing from the Senate bill going toward the Woodward light rail line: a few articles say they are accepting the $120 in private funds for the first phase as matching grants. Does this mean that it only matches the Hart Plaza to Midtown grant or does this mean the entire Hart Plaza to 8 mile will be able to break ground right away?

[Brainiac]

Sorry to be contrary, but there are so many things to improve, ... a TRAIN??

This is what happens when government spends money. There is no requirement of broad, voluntarily demonstration of need. All that's needed is for some politicians to make it their pet project. And it ends up being a burden and continued political mess.

If Detroit needed light rail, there should be signs such as never-ending traffic nightmeres, like LA or Seattle. I-94 barely has a rush hour in its most dense area.

[Bearinabox]

If Detroit needed light rail, there should be signs such as never-ending traffic nightmeres, like LA or Seattle. I-94 barely has a rush hour in its most dense area.

I'm not sure I see the correlation.

[Brainiac]

I'm not sure I see the correlation.

LOL... Transportation is not Detroit's biggest problem. Go live in a place where things are all jammed up, then come back, and you'll think the transportation system here is amazing.

Light Rail investments are appropriate for growth areas. Rehab areas should use that money more wisely on other problems, such as crime or economic tax incentives.

[Bearinabox]

LOL... Transportation is not Detroit's biggest problem. Go live in a place where things are all jammed up, then come back, and you'll think the transportation system here is amazing.

I have. Now you go spend a week riding DDOT everywhere you need to go, and then come back on here and say "the transportation system here is amazing" with a straight face. The lack of traffic jams is not the measure of an effective transportation network.

Light Rail investments are appropriate for growth areas.

Says who? Lots of people don't want to live in a city with a third-world public transit infrastructure. Lots of other people can't drive or don't have access to a car, and if they can't get and keep jobs they're a drain on the entire region.

Rehab areas should use that money more wisely on other problems, such as crime or economic tax incentives.

This money is a combination of private dollars raised specifically for rail transit, and [[hopefully) federal money set aside for transit projects that Detroit has been leaving on the table year after year because we haven't been able to get our shit together to actually build something. It's not like the COD is laying off police officers or cutting incentive packages to pay for this. If we didn't spend this money on light rail, it would disappear.

[ghettopalmetto]

LOL... Transportation is not Detroit's biggest problem.

You're right. It's perfectly normal for businesses to rely on minimum-wage workers who commute 3 hours each way on an unreliable bus system.