"The White City" - implications for Detroit

[iheartthed]

I don't know. Dallas, LA, Houston, Phoenix...etc. all did pretty well without one until the mid 90s. Heck there are more people in LA county than the entire state of Michigan, and they went 60 years without any rail.

Well, why are they all scrambling to build one now?

For the record, with the exception of L.A., none of those cities were as large or as densely populated as Detroit until the past 30 years [[Dallas and Phoenix within the last 15). And, also with the exception of L.A., they grew by annexing their suburbs.

[bailey]

Well, why are they all scrambling to build one now?

Well, in Dallas and LA's case, it was to alleviate traffic snarls and move a exploding population around. Hardly an issue for detroit.

[iheartthed]

Well, in Dallas and LA's case, it was to alleviate traffic snarls and move a exploding population around. Hardly an issue for detroit.

It's not as issue for Detroit now. But it was an issue for Detroit 30 years ago. So were they trying to avoid becoming another Detroit?

[bailey]

It's not as issue for Detroit now. But it was an issue for Detroit 30 years ago. So were they trying to avoid becoming another Detroit?

When in the past 30 years has Detroit experienced "explosive growth"?

[Retroit]

Here you go again conflating Detroit as a city with the black community. What does black Detroiters killing each other have to do with the viability of the city of Detroit? Is Chicago not functioning because of black Chicagoans killing each other? How about Atlanta's viability because of black Atlantans killing each other?

Isn't it possible for a city to have progressive areas and non-progressive areas co-existing simultaneously? Do the progressive areas of those cities have smaller or larger black populations than the non-progressive areas? Does the City of Detroit have progressive areas as well as non-progressive areas?

I would like to stress, once again: it is not my intention to place blame. My desire is to see black Detroiters live a progressive city without having to move somewhere.

[iheartthed]

When in the past 30 years has Detroit experienced "explosive growth"?

I was referring to the traffic snarls.

[iheartthed]

Isn't it possible for a city to have progressive areas and non-progressive areas co-existing simultaneously? Do the progressive areas of those cities have smaller or larger black populations than the non-progressive areas? Does the City of Detroit have progressive areas as well as non-progressive areas?

I would like to stress, once again: it is not my intention to place blame. My desire is to see black Detroiters live a progressive city without having to move somewhere.

Thanks God. You can start by not sounding so racist.

[Retroit]

Thanks God. You can start by not sounding so racist.

I'm not racist. Isn't is possible to discuss someone's problems without being automatically accused of hating them? The fact that black Detroiters have problems has nothing to do with me being or not being a racist. The fact is black Detroiters have problems. [[The same could be said about virtually every other group of people on this planet, but our scope on this thread is limited.)

[iheartthed]

I'm not racist. Isn't is possible to discuss someone's problems without being automatically accused of hating them? The fact that black Detroiters have problems has nothing to do with me being or not being a racist. The fact is black Detroiters have problems. [[The same could be said about virtually every other group of people on this planet, but our scope on this thread is limited.)

I said you sound racist, I did not say that you are racist. I'll leave that rope to you to hang yourself.

But the fact that you keep bringing up "black Detroiters" shows that you have a preoccupation with race. Black Detroiters are not the reason that the Detroit area is the least desirable major metropolitan area in the U.S. Black Detroiters did not destroy the industrial base. Black Detroiters are not the reason that the unemployment rate in Metro Detroit is the highest in the country. You are obsessed with a superficial detail that has nil to do with the problems with Detroit as a city. If you want to talk about black people then talk about black people [[somewhere else). That is a separate discussion from what is wrong with Detroit.

[English]

I read the article very carefully

Then you would have noticed that the author listed cities with significant black populations that are viable but that progressives don't like because they're not in preferred regions of the country.

There are plenty of black Detroiters who are great citizens, have good jobs, are married, and form families. They move away not only because of the black underclass, but because of lots of good, salt-of-the-earth metro Detroiters who feel the way that you do, Retroit.

[Retroit]

I said you sound racist, I did not say that you are racist. I'll leave that rope to you to hang yourself.

And I didn't say that you said I was racist. I'm just pointing out that just because your ears hear racism does not mean that my mouth said I was [[to use Ravine's analogy).

But the fact that you keep bringing up "black Detroiters" shows that you have a preoccupation with race...You are obsessed with a superficial detail that has nil to do with the problems with Detroit as a city. If you want to talk about black people then talk about black people [[somewhere else). That is a separate discussion from what is wrong with Detroit.

How can I not bring up "black Detroiters" when the whole article had to do with progressive cities not being black? Should I talk about the price of tea in China?

Black Detroiters are not the reason that the Detroit area is the least desirable major metropolitan area in the U.S.

Much of metropolitan Detroit was progressing prior to the economic downturn. The same could not be said of Detroit's residential neighborhoods. Much of metropolitan Detroit is still a desirable place to live. The same could not be said of Detroit. This is not entirely a racial matter. There are good and bad people of all colors in all cities. The problem is the difference in quantity. If the suburbs were occupied by the same proportion of good and bad people [[white or black), then the suburbs would be just as bad as Detroit. By "bad people", I don't mean intrinsically bad as a matter of skin color; I mean people choosing bad ways of living [[and thinking).

Black Detroiters did not destroy the industrial base.

And neither did whites, or at least they didn't destroy the industrial base as a way of harming blacks. Industries rise and fall. Factories become obsolete. It is not the obligation of whites to take care of blacks by building factories in black cities. If a city is safe, has a dedicated, educated work force, has a non-hostile business climate, and has usable land, then factories will be built there [[assuming they are being built in the greater economy.)

Black Detroiters are not the reason that the unemployment rate in Metro Detroit is the highest in the country.

I realize that the unemployment rate of the metropolitan area is due to the decline in domestic auto production. But that does not explain why the unemployment rate in the city of Detroit is higher than the suburbs. I realize that there are many good, hard working people [[black and white) in Detroit, but there are also a lot of people [[black and white) who are lazy, undependable, alcoholic or drug addicted, uneducated [[and who don't consider education desirable), and who steal or allow stealing from employers.

[bailey]

I was referring to the traffic snarls.

When has Detroit ever experienced traffic like LA County... again a county wherein the entire population of Michigan lives.

And of the traffic snarls we do have, where are they the worst? 696 going east west? 96 and 275 skirting detroit? Or the only place rail is being proposed- the 2 miles of Woodward?

[iheartthed]

And I didn't say that you said I was racist. I'm just pointing out that just because your ears hear racism does not mean that my mouth said I was [[to use Ravine's analogy).



How can I not bring up "black Detroiters" when the whole article had to do with progressive cities not being black? Should I talk about the price of tea in China?



Much of metropolitan Detroit was progressing prior to the economic downturn. The same could not be said of Detroit's residential neighborhoods. Much of metropolitan Detroit is still a desirable place to live. The same could not be said of Detroit. This is not entirely a racial matter. There are good and bad people of all colors in all cities. The problem is the difference in quantity. If the suburbs were occupied by the same proportion of good and bad people [[white or black), then the suburbs would be just as bad as Detroit. By "bad people", I don't mean intrinsically bad as a matter of skin color; I mean people choosing bad ways of living [[and thinking).



And neither did whites, or at least they didn't destroy the industrial base as a way of harming blacks. Industries rise and fall. Factories become obsolete. It is not the obligation of whites to take care of blacks by building factories in black cities. If a city is safe, has a dedicated, educated work force, has a non-hostile business climate, and has usable land, then factories will be built there [[assuming they are being built in the greater economy.)



I realize that the unemployment rate of the metropolitan area is due to the decline in domestic auto production. But that does not explain why the unemployment rate in the city of Detroit is higher than the suburbs. I realize that there are many good, hard working people [[black and white) in Detroit, but there are also a lot of people [[black and white) who are lazy, undependable, alcoholic or drug addicted, uneducated [[and who don't consider education desirable), and who steal or allow stealing from employers.

Metro Detroit is not at the top of list of places to move for hardly anyone who isn't from there. It hasn't been for quite some time. If you compare the growth rate of Metropolitan Detroit for the past 40 years with the growth rate of other major metropolitan areas, then you'll see that Metroit is severely lagging. The area isn't growing. And no matter how you try to spin it, the area hasn't attracted a new industry in decades.

If the suburbs are such a great place then how come they are still predominantly dependent on the auto industry? Even more dependent on it now than in the past! Why are companies like Volkswagen and K-Mart leaving from Oakland County of all places, in order to move to areas like D.C. and Chicago? These companies aren't running from Detroit, they are running from Metroit. You can try to spin this as a black Detroiters issue all you want, but you just sound foolish. Most Americans don't even realize that the city of Detroit is predominantly black!

[bailey]

Most Americans don't even realize that the city of Detroit is predominantly black!

Bullshit they don't.

[iheartthed]

When has Detroit ever experienced traffic like LA County... again a county wherein the entire population of Michigan lives.

And of the traffic snarls we do have, where are they the worst? 696 going east west? 96 and 275 skirting detroit? Or the only place rail is being proposed- the 2 miles of Woodward?

It is irrelevant where the traffic snarls occur. You came to a flawed conclusion that the purpose of mass transit lines is to reduce automobile traffic. That is beside my point. My point is that for Detroit to sustain itself as a densely populated city, it needed to have a mass transit system.

[iheartthed]

Bullshit they don't.

You do, but they don't. I come across people from all corners of the country everyday. Most don't know the difference between Detroit and Youngstown, Ohio.

[bailey]

It is irrelevant where the traffic snarls occur. You came to a flawed conclusion that the purpose of mass transit lines is to reduce automobile traffic. That is beside my point. My point is that for Detroit to sustain itself as a densely populated city, it needed to have a mass transit system.

And my point is to highlight the fact that Detroit is not a densely populated city and hasn't been for about 30 years.

[Retroit]

Then you would have noticed that the author listed cities with significant black populations that are viable but that progressives don't like because they're not in preferred regions of the country.

I'm not sure what you are referring to [[maybe I didn't read it carefully enough ). Are you saying that Atlanta, Dallas, and Houston are not desirable regions of the country? The author seems to me to be saying that these progressive cities have "decayed urban cores" [[i.e. non-progressive areas) which are black. He then proposes that whites should "start taking their African American and other communities seriously, seeing them as a pillar of civic growth..." So my question is: why should the burden be on the whites? And do black communities take themselves seriously? Do black people really expect white people to open up businesses in a city with high crime, low education, and ugly neighborhoods?

There are plenty of black Detroiters who are great citizens, have good jobs, are married, and form families. They move away not only because of the black underclass, but because of lots of good, salt-of-the-earth metro Detroiters who feel the way that you do, Retroit.

I know, I know. And I've said the very same thing numerous times. I know these people. They are the people who reject the stereotypes which are self-imposed by the black community. Those stereotypes go something like this: I am a black person, and I'm only here because my ancestors were dragged here by white people. Therefore, it is the obligation of white people to take care of me and give me a job. I shouldn't have to take the initiative because I never asked to be here. And I refuse to subject myself to the frivolity of white culture. I don't need a good education, because that is a white thing. I don't need to dress nicely, because that is a white thing. I don't need to take care of my house, because that is a white thing. I don't need to discipline my kids, because that is a white thing. I don't need to start a business in my community, because that is a white thing.

Now, English, I realize that not every black accepts these stereotypes. And I realize that there are also many whites who also don't accept personal responsibility and bring down their communities. But a black city like Detroit can not be progressive until they themselves embrace progress. That progress must begin in their own lives, and it must be the result of an individual commitment independent of whatever white people may decide to do someday.

[iheartthed]

And my point is to highlight the fact that Detroit is not a densely populated city and hasn't been for about 30 years.

Okay. But my point is that Detroit needs to be a densely populated city.

[2blocksaway]

Originally Posted by bailey
And my point is to highlight the fact that Detroit is not a densely populated city and hasn't been for about 30 years.

Okay. But my point is that Detroit needs to be a densely populated city.

Wrong and wrong.

Detroit hasn't ever been a densely populated city. At least not on the scale many want it believe it was.

Detroit is the original suburb. A lot of people spread out over many, many square miles.

Detroit doesn't need to be a densely populated city BECAUSE it is so big.

Densely populated cities like NYC, and Mexico City, and just about any big city in China are few and far between. This is a big city it just needs to be developed correctly. Time has told us that people who live around here don't want to live anywhere too dense.

[Retroit]

Metro Detroit is not at the top of list of places to move for hardly anyone who isn't from there. It hasn't been for quite some time. If you compare the growth rate of Metropolitan Detroit for the past 40 years with the growth rate of other major metropolitan areas, then you'll see that Metroit is severely lagging. The area isn't growing. And no matter how you try to spin it, the area hasn't attracted a new industry in decades.

I know this. I'm not trying to spin anything. Your comment [["Black Detroiters did not destroy the industrial base.") seemed to imply that destruction of an industrial base can somehow be attributed to a race. I didn't see your point. I'm assuming you meant that it was not the blacks, but rather the whites who destroyed it. Maybe you meant to say that the industrial base has declined and this has had a more adverse affect on blacks?

If the suburbs are such a great place then how come they are still predominantly dependent on the auto industry? Even more dependent on it now than in the past! Why are companies like Volkswagen and K-Mart leaving from Oakland County of all places, in order to move to areas like D.C. and Chicago? These companies aren't running from Detroit, they are running from Metroit. You can try to spin this as a black Detroiters issue all you want, but you just sound foolish.

First of all, my comments were in response to the article that English posted. Did that article mention anything about companies relocating? I'd be happy to discuss these things, but they are not what I took from the article, so I didn't mention them. It has nothing to do with "spinning". Now, to address this unrelated issue, I would agree that businesses leaving metro Detroit has nothing to do with race.

Most Americans don't even realize that the city of Detroit is predominantly black!

iheartthed, the reason I like talking with you is not only do you present perspectives that I disagree with, but you present perspectives that I never even knew existed!

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by bailey
And my point is to highlight the fact that Detroit is not a densely populated city and hasn't been for about 30 years.


Wrong and wrong.

Detroit hasn't ever been a densely populated city. At least not on the scale many want it believe it was.

Detroit is the original suburb. A lot of people spread out over many, many square miles.

Detroit doesn't need to be a densely populated city BECAUSE it is so big.

Densely populated cities like NYC, and Mexico City, and just about any big city in China are few and far between. This is a big city it just needs to be developed correctly. Time has told us that people who live around here don't want to live anywhere too dense.

Uh, no. Detroit was as dense in 1950 as Chicago is now. It was even more dense in previous years before it began to annex the sparsely populated townships surrounding it. [[I chose 1950 because that is the last time that Detroit posted an increase in population.)

Also, because Detroit was annexing less densely populated neighbors, the density of the main neighborhoods in Detroit was much higher than the overall density of the city. Detroit was a dense city.

And since you mentioned New York... In 1920, NYC had a population density of 18,796 people per square mile. The saem year, Detroit had a population density of 12,748 people per square mile, roughly 70% that of NYC. In 2008, NYC had a population density of 27,440 people per square mile, and Detroit had one of 6,378 people per square mile, roughly 23% of NYC. Which do you think preferred their city better, the residents of 1920 Detroit -- when the density was more comparable to NYC -- or those of 2008 Detroit?

[vetalalumni]

I just read a great article on an urban studies blog. I shared it on Facebook, and was hoping to get some good discussion going here:

The White City
http://www.newgeography.com/content/...the-white-city



As we think about the challenges Detroit faces, this is definitely food for thought. The entire article is worth reading. I particularly liked the points made about Atlanta and Houston, cities that a lot of educated African Americans from Detroit flock to in droves. Unless those of us who are people of color in SE Michigan disappear, we will never be a Seattle, Portland or Denver.

Like I've shared in my other thread, I am applying to jobs here in the Detroit area, but because nothing's guaranteed, I'm also applying for work in these hipster "new urban" places too [[where most of the jobs this year seem to be located in my field). Those cities might be nice, but I've heard that POC feel pretty isolated there. But I have to admit... if I weren't African American, but White with the same level of education and skill set, I wouldn't have ambivalence about moving to the Pacific NW. I'd likely jump at the chance. And that thoughts makes me feel weird.

Thoughts?

Doubtful you seek patronization, so I'll be direct. Consider the value of taking roads less traveled [[by others like yourself). In doing so, without question you'd face uncomfortable situations. However the upside can include using important capabilities you may have not known you had. No guarantees.

[Trumpeteer]

You do, but they don't. I come across people from all corners of the country everyday. Most don't know the difference between Detroit and Youngstown, Ohio.

You're kidding right??? Don't know who the people are who you "come across" but they must not get out much

[Retroit]

To a New Yorker, all other cities are Youngstown, Ohios.