Preservation Wayne's 2009 list of Detroit's most-endangered sites.

[PQZ]

Are you really that daft that you don't comprehend what purpose "attention" serves?

Would Orchestra Hall still be around had one of DSO's musicians not brought ATTENTION to the fact that it was going to be torn down for a pizza joint?

And who stepped up and did something? The musicians didn't just retreat to their basement to build a Lego replica of the building. They got off their asses, found donors, did the heavy lifting and worked. They didn't just stop at "attention". THEY understood they needed to take the next step and DID it.

Would Ferry Ave. be a stately historic home success story with "infill" housing were it not for the ATTENTION that it got as a historic neighborhood?

Yes, Ferry St. would still be a success because Sue Mosey, Julio Bateau and others did the heavy lifting and decades of work to make it happen. Sue Mosey and the DIA didn't need a bunch of handwringers poiting out the buildings were old and had value. They knew that - usually well before the brick snifferes showed up and peed their pants with excitement. What they needed 15 years ago was a mobilized, engaged and active preservation community that would take steps beyond printing T-shirts

Would the United Artists Building still be an open-to-tresspassers Hobo-Hilton had the National Trust not brought national ATTENTION to how the Ilitch's were "maintaining" their building?

If the UA is closed up now, I give a month before the homeless find another way back in. Instead of running to the NTHP for a temporary fix, why not work on a long term solution?

I guess you need to get out more often...

You're right. I do. I need to stop putting in the extra hours at work trying to find financing for...wait for it...the renovation of a historic theater in downtown!

Would downtown loft development have started had Preservation Wayne not sponsored the Loft Development Workshops for building owners and developers?

Yep. The DDA and GDP would still have spent their millions to buy buildings to make the loft projects happen back in the mid 90s. The DDA still would have partnered with DIF to create the Lower Woodward Hosuing Fund. When I look at loft development in downtown I see Dennis K, and we all know what he is like, Farbman, Shostak and Bates. There are a couple minor loft redevelopments that total less than 30 units. Do you mean to imply that Farbman, Shostak and Bates would not have had the vision to invest with out a loft seminar? That is a very heady clai. I'd go the other way with your argument. How is it that there is no momentum for small scale loft redevelopment downtown? I'd argue the forums were pretty ineffective. The folks that did lofts further up Woodward like Slattery and Hubbell were the folks that led the loft movcement and were the speakers for the PW forums. Overall, loft development is in a very few hands and neither the City nor PW has done much to widen the pool of investors. Perhaps PW could be doing some follow up on why loft conversion hasn't gobe gangbusters.

Preservation Wayne also cleaned out tons of fallen debris from the interior of the city owned National Theatre so that it could be made presentable for developers.

And how did that work out? Is the National being redeveloped?

Preservation Wayne gives dozens of tours to people from metro Detroit, Michigan and around the world, on the city's architectural and historic heritage.

Great. PR is always good but really, what tangible benefits are accrued by showing off buildings to other architectural buffs?

Gotta keep it short... the Whittier is waiting...

And AroundTown, I'll ease up on personal attacks when the likes of FNemecek cease fabricating fraud rumors about myself and others.....

Look, my poinnt now and has always been that the so-called preservation community in Detroit is basically useless. It whines, it spends it time chasing its tail and wringing its hands over battles long past and does NOTHING meaningful to advance the cause. It resolutely refuses to learn from past mistakes and only antogonizes public officials, calling them names in public and encouraging false and malicious rumors. NOT ONCE in the whole Book Cadillac resoration did preservation community come forward and say: "Wow, great job, how did you do it and what can we do to help?" It instead elected to publicly insult the same people working on the Book Cadillac and file suit over the demolition of the Statler. Not once did they request a meeting to discuss the reality of the situation, to understand the economics, to listen to one of their own when Pres Kabacoff said doing the Statler would be a monumental misuse of public dollars. They instead ran screaming down the halls that the City "had no vision" and "didn't understand historic preservation"

If the preservation activist community were at a forest fire, it would yell at the firefighters for missing a tree.

Is it the same old same old, or does the preservation community want to actually do something?

[Disclaimer: There are very many talented and hard working folks who are "preservationists" who operate under the radar and do exceptional work and actually get things done. They know who they are and they know I know who they are. Without them, most of what has been accomplished in Detroit would not be there. Hat tip to them.]

[Fnemecek]

And AroundTown, I'll ease up on personal attacks when the likes of FNemecek cease fabricating fraud rumors about myself and others....

Oh, please. You've been making personal attacks for years. I only starting complaining about the $700 per boarded up window in the past couple of months.

As for what the preservation community does or doesn't do, you know those t-shirts that you just love complaining about? When the money from them wasn't needed for the Book Cadillac, every penny of it was donated to the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy and other groups doing preservation work.

And what happened with Tiger Stadium???

George Jackson and the DEGC decided that the federal government wasn't moving fast enough on its portion of the deal so they're just going to demolish the whole thing. Now, long after the federal funds would have arrived and construction would have begun [[creating jobs for Detroiters and tax revenue for a City that needs it in the process) all we have is an empty field.

Good job DEGC!!!

You know, I used to think that you were corrupt. Today, I just think you're an idiot.

[PQZ]

Oh, please. You've been making personal attacks for years. I only starting complaining about the $700 per boarded up window in the past couple of months.

As for what the preservation community does or doesn't do, you know those t-shirts that you just love complaining about? When the money from them wasn't needed for the Book Cadillac, every penny of it was donated to the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy and other groups doing preservation work.

And what happened with Tiger Stadium???

George Jackson and the DEGC decided that the federal government wasn't moving fast enough on its portion of the deal so they're just going to demolish the whole thing. Now, long after the federal funds would have arrived and construction would have begun [[creating jobs for Detroiters and tax revenue for a City that needs it in the process) all we have is an empty field.

Good job DEGC!!!

You know, I used to think that you were corrupt. Today, I just think you're an idiot.

And I am sure that $300 made a HUGE difference in the efforts.

I have my own personal opinion of what happened at Tiger Stadium, but again you just proved my point.

If someone challenges the preservation community for not stepping up to the plate the kneejerk reaction is one of three...

1. Public servants are corrupt
2. Public servants are idiots.
3. Waaaaaah something happened in the past. I refuse to learn or do anything differently.

Never onmce is there reflection on what could be done better or differntly by those that profess to love historic buildings so much.

[Fnemecek]

Oh, bite me. There has been plenty of reflection and learning from mistakes within the preservation community. The problem is that every time we try to do something productive in this town, the DEGC finds a way of fucking it up.

[Whitehouse]

Video of urban exploring. Packard plant, Book depository, MCS and Lee Plaza.

Music by Coldplay.

[REL]

Video of urban exploring. Packard plant, Book depository, MCS and Lee Plaza.

Music by Coldplay.

Whitehouse, may I ask why you decided to post a link that glorifies the violation these buildings? Do you think it's sexy or artsy to show glass windows being shattered, realtime, for the camera? Do you realize it's folks like this that degrade the buildings even farther, putting them farther down the list to be saved?

Shame on you.

[Fnemecek]

I agree w/ Aroundtown. This crab about kids coming in from the suburbs to make videos of themselves smashing stuff in vacant historic buildings has to stop.

[Ocean2026]

I had asked about this once -its on the list but no one seems to have mentioned it.

Is there any possible economic use ?

Is that area pretty average for Detroit as far as economy and crime?

Anyone been inside?

Who are the owners?

Are they all up for bid?

[Baselinepunk]

I know this must have been asked and answered; my apologies in advance, I'm formally new to the whole Historic Preservation context being a new recruit to the EMU HP program.

My question is: How [[or perhaps, why ... ) can DEGC use "corporation" as part of their acronym if they are, or at least claim on their website to be, a non-profit?

[MikeM]

You've never heard of a non-profit corporation?

[Baselinepunk]

Quite frankly, no I hadn't, or may have just missed it in the past that's why I asked. Thanks for inspiring a little more in depth research on my behalf. I wasn't trying to imply impropriety on their behalf, merely curious on how groups like this are organized and operate. Chalk it up as a newbie inquiry.

[detourdetroit]

The thing that's infuriating about the DEGC is that it is a quasi-public/private entity that really gets to play multiple sides in terms of disclosure and public review. However, it's scope of interest includes the allocation and disposition of public monies and property interests and there is little framework, input or interest afforded to the actual public.

[Baselinepunk]

"The thing that's infuriating about the DEGC is that it is a quasi-public/private entity that really gets to play multiple sides in terms of disclosure and public review. However, it's scope of interest includes the allocation and disposition of public monies and property interests and there is little framework, input or interest afforded to the actual public."

Interesting. Public/Private relationships can be problematic from what I understand. Perhaps DEGC is able to enjoy this type of fluid relationship due to no other competing entity? If so, I see opportunity.

One thing that I came across is that the Bing Group is listed as a partner on the DEGC website. Now that Dave Bing is in an administrative role as Mayor of the City of Detroit, shouldn't Bing Group kindly step aside as a means to head off any claims of conflict of interest?

[kathy2trips]

You'd think so~!

[PQZ]

Oh, bite me. There has been plenty of reflection and learning from mistakes within the preservation community. The problem is that every time we try to do something productive in this town, the DEGC finds a way of fucking it up.

This is true. Clearly the DEGC really fucked it up with the Book Cadillac - especially with all the effort put in to those t-shirts.

Perhaps the portion of thepreservation community that is more interested in blowing bubbles and starting malicious rumors could take a pointer or two from the folks who actually get involved and do the heavy lifting.


http://www.detnews.com/article/20091...down-buildings

This situation has been dragging out since before I left Detroit. It is instructive to me that the yutzlefutzes on this board are spending their time crying about the Lafayette but not offering to help folks like Josh and Kristine who are in the trenches "doing something."

[REL]

"...but not offering to help folks like Josh and Kristine who are in the trenches "doing something."

Correction to PQZ: Actually, Josh was personally invited and attended PW's event, from what I heard. They are hoping to partner with him on a few things. Perhaps you should talk to him first and learn more about the situation before invoking his name?

If you have nothing to contribute to the conversation than negative attacks, please just don't post. You are criticizing others for "just talking", yet ironically, I don't see any helpful suggestions from you. And apparently, you're not in Detroit anymore, either, so I don't see how you personally are more invloved than people here.

[Fnemecek]

I think it's interesting that when someone battles the City of Grosse Pointe Park, PQZ refers to them as being "in the battle" and "doing the heavy lifting".

However, when someone does the same thing with the DEGC over say the Madison Lenox, Statler Hilton, Tiger Stadium or Lafayette Building then they are "virtually useless".

[EastSider]

This is true. Clearly the DEGC really fucked it up with the Book Cadillac - especially with all the effort put in to those t-shirts.

Perhaps the portion of thepreservation community that is more interested in blowing bubbles and starting malicious rumors could take a pointer or two from the folks who actually get involved and do the heavy lifting.


http://www.detnews.com/article/20091...down-buildings

This situation has been dragging out since before I left Detroit. It is instructive to me that the yutzlefutzes on this board are spending their time crying about the Lafayette but not offering to help folks like Josh and Kristine who are in the trenches "doing something."

Aren't you side-stepping the inglorious circumstances surrounding Kristine's leaving the Historic District Commission staff?

[PQZ]

Correction to PQZ: Actually, Josh was personally invited and attended PW's event, from what I heard. They are hoping to partner with him on a few things. Perhaps you should talk to him first and learn more about the situation before invoking his name?

If you have nothing to contribute to the conversation than negative attacks, please just don't post. You are criticizing others for "just talking", yet ironically, I don't see any helpful suggestions from you. And apparently, you're not in Detroit anymore, either, so I don't see how you personally are more invloved than people here.

And that is just my point. PW has been around for a very long time. By now they should be the resource that people like Josh [[ a personal friend for many years) are going to for help. It shouldn't be community developers coming to PW to give their insight. By now PW should be the teacher not the learner.

And you still don't get it. The "negative attacks" are not not about being mean. They are challenging folks to step up their game. I have given more than enough advice and ideas on this forum over the last 8 years or so, advise directly from my experience in being a project lead on efforts like the Book Cadillac. Instead of stopping and listening to what people with real life experience are saying...folks are stomping their feet and saying stop being mean and ignoring the advice. And what is the outcome? Buildings still get torn down, activists are still marginalized as a result of heir own direct behavior, resources that could be marshalled remain dormant, energy is wasted in petty bickering and not spent on actually saving buildings and perservationsist across the board become viewed as obstructionist cranks. The real collateral damage there is that the talented folks working within the system to actually get things done get painted with the same brush and that just makes things worse.

[REL]

And that is just my point. PW has been around for a very long time. By now they should be the resource that people like Josh [[ a personal friend for many years) are going to for help. It shouldn't be community developers coming to PW to give their insight. By now PW should be the teacher not the learner.

And you still don't get it. The "negative attacks" are not not about being mean. They are challenging folks to step up their game. I have given more than enough advice and ideas on this forum over the last 8 years or so, advise directly from my experience in being a project lead on efforts like the Book Cadillac. Instead of stopping and listening to what people with real life experience are saying...folks are stomping their feet and saying stop being mean and ignoring the advice. And what is the outcome? Buildings still get torn down, activists are still marginalized as a result of heir own direct behavior, resources that could be marshalled remain dormant, energy is wasted in petty bickering and not spent on actually saving buildings and perservationsist across the board become viewed as obstructionist cranks. The real collateral damage there is that the talented folks working within the system to actually get things done get painted with the same brush and that just makes things worse.

Sorry, but your response makes no logical sense at all, given my correction. The preservation community is moving forward, trying to build stronger relationships and thereby having more strength in numbers. Yet you still choose to criticize, even after you hear people are trying to collaborate & work together.

You're right... I guess I "still don't get it".

[Fnemecek]

And you still don't get it. The "negative attacks" are not not about being mean. They are challenging folks to step up their game. I have given more than enough advice and ideas on this forum over the last 8 years or so, advise directly from my experience in being a project lead on efforts like the Book Cadillac. Instead of stopping and listening to what people with real life experience are saying...folks are stomping their feet and saying stop being mean and ignoring the advice.

Oh, yes. The Great Swami of North Carolina has spoken.

Please tell us simpletons, oh noble wise one. Which piece of your unsolicited advice did the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy not follow?

Did they not attend enough meetings?

What was the error of their ways that caused our Dear Leader to smite them?

[Stosh]

Oh, yes. The Great Swami of North Carolina has spoken.

Please tell us simpletons, oh noble wise one. Which piece of your unsolicited advice did the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy not follow?

Did they not attend enough meetings?

What was the error of their ways that caused our Dear Leader to smite them?

Lack of actual [[real) money and a realistic plan.

[Fnemecek]

The OTSC had real money from the feds. The money was approved and working its way through a federal bureaucracy. They move on their own time table.

If the DEGC had been willing to allow that to happen then there would be a couple hundred people at work on a job site right now. Instead, we have an empty field.

But, hey - it's not like Detroiters need jobs or anything.

So, why not wait a few weeks for the feds?

[Ocean2026]

LOL a fight has broken out here. All I wanted was info on that nice Abysinnian Church or what's left of it on 8501 Woodard. Its not on the DEGC site.

[Fnemecek]

Churches are a bit harder to track down information because they're usually not in a many of the government databases. Since the church is no longer operating, if I recall correctly, you might want to make an inquiry to the leadership of the Church of God in Christ. http://cogic.net/cogiccms/default/

They might be able to tell you more about the site.