Close Woodward off to traffic?

[gumby]

I always love the "If it works in New York it will work in Detroit" arguement. New York is a unique beast here people. The arguement is is exactly like saying, "well that incredibly hot underwear model married a rich guy there is no reason that fat chick with the horrible skin condition can't." I'm sorry guys, Detroit is the fat chick with the horrible skin condition to compare what works in New York is pointless.

[iheartthed]

I always love the "If it works in New York it will work in Detroit" arguement. New York is a unique beast here people. The arguement is is exactly like saying, "well that incredibly hot underwear model married a rich guy there is no reason that fat chick with the horrible skin condition can't." I'm sorry guys, Detroit is the fat chick with the horrible skin condition to compare what works in New York is pointless.

Let's file this one under poor reading comprehension skills.

[Detroitnerd]

iheart: Where did they close Broadway to traffic? [[Yes, ain't been there in about seven years.)

[iheartthed]

iheart: Where did they close Broadway to traffic? [[Yes, ain't been there in about seven years.)

It's officially closed between 47th and 42nd Streets at Times Square, and from 35th to 33rd Streets at Herald Square. But virtually no cars use the open stretch of B'way from TS to HS, because they reduced it to two lanes and installed public seating area where those closed lanes were.

[Detroitnerd]

I see, so you switch off to Sixth Avenue. Well, honestly, that's the best way to get around Times Square. I'd seldom drive through TS unless I was going there, so it makes sense. Sort of like the way they'll designate a "route" that follows more than one road.

[gumby]

Let's file this one under poor reading comprehension skills.

How exactly? People here are claiming that pedestrian malls can work and are using the Fulton mall in Brooklyn as an example of it working here. Hell you started theis thread because you read an article about it happening on some cross town street in New York. So how is what I wrote poor reading comprehension?

Let's just file you under needless speculation and useless arguements.

[iheartthed]

How exactly? People here are claiming that pedestrian malls can work and are using the Fulton mall in Brooklyn as an example of it working here. Hell you started theis thread because you read an article about it happening on some cross town street in New York. So how is what I wrote poor reading comprehension?

Let's just file you under needless speculation and useless arguements.

Please show me where someone said that the Fulton Mall concept would work in Detroit because it worked in Brooklyn. The only discussion I see regarding Fulton Mall is that it is an anomaly because it was successful there when similar concepts failed in Chicago and Detroit.

[gumby]

Here let me dumb it down for you.

You said, "Hey should we shut down Woodward to vehicle traffic? Because I saw they were talking about doing it on some cross Street in New York, so do you think it would work here?"

Pretty much everyone else then says, "Dumb idea they have tried before with Woodward and in other cities with much more pedestrian traffic and it failed pretty much everywhere."

Then there was a bunch of useless arguing about how Woodward is a terrible comparison to 42nd St because it is longer and some such shit

Then Crawford chimes in, "Nu uh, pedestrian malls don't always fail, Fulton Mall worked in Brooklyn, blah blah blah."

Then you said "Gumby is a doodoo head with bad comprehension skills." Even though what I posted here was actually said.

This whole thread is based on they are trying something in New York do you think it will work here? To which I am again replying it would not and has not worked here. Detroit is the fat chick to New York's super model they cannot be compared.

[HazenPingree]

You are taking an idea that MIGHT work for a walkable, crowded city and trying to adapt it to Detroit. In most cities, there is not enough foot traffic on sidewalks to justify such a street closure -- NYC could be the exception because of its sheer size and density.

Not only did Detroit try it already with Woodward -- Chicago tried it too, with its "State Street Mall," which allowed buses only. Both cases were huge failures. The closed portions of the streets began to resemble ghost towns. Eventually, Chicago restored State Street to allowing through vehicular traffic and the strip was revitalized. Not so with Woodward... as said earlier, the restricted traffic resulted in the "nails in the coffin."

Every so often this idea is proposed because someone thinks "it will look prettier" and we'll get rid of those nasty cars. And sure, everyone will naturally just be dying to go there and walk the length of the pedestrian mall. Sure they will.

I am not suggesting that this would work in Detroit, but a pedestrian mall has been built in Denver. It seems quite successful. Not that that would work in Detroit, but just pointing it out.

Also, wasn't the pedestrian mall on Washington Blvd, not Woodward Ave?

[gumby]

I am not suggesting that this would work in Detroit, but a pedestrian mall has been built in Denver. It seems quite successful. Not that that would work in Detroit, but just pointing it out.

Also, wasn't the pedestrian mall on Washington Blvd, not Woodward Ave?

I believe at some point it they had it on both. A pedestrian mall can work in a small scale but not on a cities main st. they tried it up here in Flint as well with the same failing result.

[iheartthed]

Here let me dumb it down for you.

You said, "Hey should we shut down Woodward to vehicle traffic? Because I saw they were talking about doing it on some cross Street in New York, so do you think it would work here?"

Pretty much everyone else then says, "Dumb idea they have tried before with Woodward and in other cities with much more pedestrian traffic and it failed pretty much everywhere."

Then there was a bunch of useless arguing about how Woodward is a terrible comparison to 42nd St because it is longer and some such shit

Then Crawford chimes in, "Nu uh, pedestrian malls don't always fail, Fulton Mall worked in Brooklyn, blah blah blah."

Then you said "Gumby is a doodoo head with bad comprehension skills." Even though what I posted here was actually said.

This whole thread is based on they are trying something in New York do you think it will work here? To which I am again replying it would not and has not worked here. Detroit is the fat chick to New York's super model they cannot be compared.

What you originally said was already dumb enough, so no need for me to give you any extra nudges.

You said:

I always love the "If it works in New York it will work in Detroit" arguement.

Which is puzzling because absolutely no one in this entire thread said anything of the sort. Hence, my response:

Let's file this one under poor reading comprehension skills.

Then you responded by saying that someone in this thread claimed a concept that worked in Brooklyn would work in Detroit:

People here are claiming that pedestrian malls can work and are using the Fulton mall in Brooklyn as an example of it working here.

Absolutely no one in this thread said anything remotely close to that. Thus, my response:

Please show me where someone said that the Fulton Mall concept would work in Detroit because it worked in Brooklyn.

I asked for you to show me because I could have been wrong! I can be wrong, and I'll accept when I have been proven wrong. But apparently I was right, because you have yet to show me this part of the discussion.

[gumby]

What you originally said was already dumb enough, so no need for me to give you any extra nudges.

You said:



Which is puzzling because absolutely no one in this entire thread said anything of the sort. Hence, my response:



Then you responded by saying that someone in this thread claimed a concept that worked in Brooklyn would work in Detroit:



Absolutely no one in this thread said anything remotely close to that. Thus, my response:



I asked for you to show me because I could have been wrong! I can be wrong, and I'll accept when I have been proven wrong. But apparently I was right, because you have yet to show me this part of the discussion.

Look obviously you are having comprehension problems. I am sorry you can't wrap your little mind around the fact that no one out right said it but it can be inferred from the preceding discourse. The whole idea for this thread is retarded and I am sorry I wasted my time responding to it.

What I should have said originally is... iheartthed, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[iheartthed]

Look obviously you are having comprehension problems. I am sorry you can't wrap your little mind around the fact that no one out right said it but it can be inferred from the preceding discourse. The whole idea for this thread is retarded and I am sorry I wasted my time responding to it.

What I should have said originally is... iheartthed, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, but next time slow down and digest what you're reading before responding.

[hudkina]

To be fair what really happened is he took an example of an article about a proposal in New York, and started a discussion on the merits of something similar occuring here on the Woodward corridor. Then a few certain people overreacted and assumed that people were in favor of this idea just because the question was asked. The naysayers quickly crawled out of the woodwork and instead of actually discussing the pros and cons of the idea, quickly jumped into attack mode and or irrelevent argument mode.

Instead of this thread turning into a discussion of new streetscaping, LRT, streetcars, bike lanes, safety measures, etc. that would make Woodward a more pedestrian-friendly urban corridor, it devolved into the typical "Detroit-can't-do-anything-so-there's-no-use-discussing-anything" thread that this forum is known for.

[Retroit]

gumby, haven't you figured it out by now that iheartthed thinks that Detroit is the sixth borough of New York?

[EastsideAl]

The Washington Blvd. experience was another pedestrian mall failure. There they closed the eastern half of the street, and gave it a "streetscape" unified by a single sculptural element - the late, unlamented, and much derided [[deservedly) red monkey bars. It was done at approximately the same time as the Woodward mall, and was part of an overall movement to make the downtown retail area more pedestrian friendly. They also closed and bricked over Shelby in front of the Farwell Building on the backside of Capitol Park around that time, and there was talk of closing off other parts of downtown, like the Harmonie Park area or possibly Greektown, to regular car traffic.

On Washington Blvd. they put in brick sidewalks, benches, tables, plantings, and even a little space for concerts [[saw some pretty damn good jazz concerts there during one summer series). This was during the time when the cute little trollies were rolling down the center of the street, and a berm was built around the trolley tracks isolating the landscaped half of the boulevard visually and sonically from the part that now carried all of the traffic. I believe this was envisioned as a sort of short transit/pedestrian park oasis setting for apartments and small retail. Ugly monkey bars aside, it really was quite a pleasant space at the beginning.

But it was also a mostly empty space, and soon enough the remaining stores on that side of Washington Blvd. [[which had traditionally been the upscale retail area downtown) all closed turning the little park into a wasteland. The hotels at either end that were supposed to anchor the area with tourist/business traveler traffic began to fail [[which one can't blame on the malling), and by the time the Statler/Hilton/Heritage expired it was quite clear that the plan was going to be a failure.

[gumby]

Hudkina, there are countless example of this exact thing failing and they have been discussed here time and again. There is no reason to have this converstion over and over. I appreciate iheartthed's enthusiasm but we have to be realistic here. We know the pedestrian malls are not the only reason the retail in these areas failed there are many factors that go into it but they certainly exhaserbated the situation.

[hudkina]

I agree that it would be a bad idea to close the street to traffic. In fact, I posted my opinion on the previous page. My point is that as usual, this thread turned into another "it-can't-be-done-and-here's-why" thread instead of a "maybe-if-we-do-it-this-way-it-might-work-better" thread.

It really shows the negativity that so many people have around here.

[Red Devil]

If a downtown Detroit retail development is viable in the future, the city should take a look at the mixed-use City Place development here in the LBC [[Long Beach, CA). Downtown Long Beach, which was in a situation similar to Detroit's not long ago, built an enclosed mall in the 80s. That mall failed, and was demolished for City Place, which is tucked in between two main avenues. They restored the street grid and built the storefronts within, with condos and apts on top of some of the buildings. The shops are mostly discount stores [[Payless, Ross, Nordstrom Rack, etc.) and an urban Wal-Mart along with a pair of parking decks. The majority of the shoppers are working class from areas that are socio-economically similar to Detroit. Auto traffic can move in between the blocks, but there is also a pedestrian-only promenade with shops and restaurants that extends from the mall to Ocean Blvd, 4 or 5 blocks away. Just a thought.