ride the bus? nope

[Bearinabox]

And as I've said before, one of the biggest reasons that transit works in NYC is that they have the population base to support it. The reason bus routes are being eliminated in Detroit is because they don't bring in enough money to allow the city to maintain them.

Do you have any evidence for this claim, or did you just pull it out of your ass like you did the line about the buses being 75% empty?

Wait, never mind, I know the answer.

[bailey]

And, dare I say, those cities still have grocery stores with *gasp* parking lots for those who wish to drive! As Yakov Smirnov would say, "What a country!"

When I lived in DC, I had no problem walking six blocks and putting 2 weeks worth of groceries in my grandma cart. That, or you just pick up a couple things on the way home from work, or you walk to the farmers market. Horribly pleasant and inconvenient, I know. It would have been far more preferable to have to slug 10 miles each way through traffic to pick up a gallon of milk. :-)

You do realize that in the vast majority of Metro Detroit communities, no one is driving 10 miles "each way" for daily needs. That would only happen if one actually lived in Detroit, city of.

[professorscott]

Obviously Detroit's decision to go all-cars all the time for transportation has led us to the fine, thriving region we have today. Everyone just keep driving your cars, and to heck with transit! And things will continue to be wonderful, just as they are today.

Following is from a local school superintendent, explaining why his school system [[not Detroit) has fewer and fewer students:

"We've lost the 20-somethings," he said. "The entire group of 20-somethings who are having kids have fled the area -- fled the state. This [enrollment decline] is completely a result of this."

Yes, let's just keep doing what we've been doing, and hope for different results! [[This of course was Einstein's definition of insanity.)

[ghettopalmetto]

You do realize that in the vast majority of Metro Detroit communities, no one is driving 10 miles "each way" for daily needs. That would only happen if one actually lived in Detroit, city of.

And you somehow think this is ACCEPTABLE???

[bailey]

And you somehow think this is ACCEPTABLE???

Never. Not once ever have I even remotely made that assertion.

However, it's reality.

[ghettopalmetto]

Never. Not once ever have I even remotely made that assertion.

However, it's reality.

Since we agree that

*Detroit is severely under-retailed [[even poor people need to buy groceries and clothes, you know)

*there is a dearth of jobs in the core city of the region

*over 300,000 people in Detroit have no access to an automobile

would it not follow that some sort of improvement needs to be made to the transit system?

[jackie5275]

Going back to Gopher's original post, the scenario he presents is actually quite real. In the late 80s, I worked at the Federal Bldg downtown. I had a co-worker who lived in the Telegraph-13 Mile Rd area of Southfield. She thought it may be beneficial to ride the bus downtown rather than drive every day. She rode the bus for about 3 mos. before she got fed up with it. In the morning, she would have to be at the stop at about 5:45 am to catch the bus. She had to transfer twice to get into downtown where, if the bus was on time, it would drop her off at Michigan & Griswald at 7:53 am. From there, she would have to run, yes run, to the building at Mich & Cass in order to make it in time to start work at 8 am. The evening was worse because we couldn't leave our desks until 4:30 pm. She would again have run to Mich & Griswald to catch the bus back by 4:36 pm. If she missed that bus, she would have wait until the next one came at 5:13 pm. If she did make it on time, it would take her again 2 transfers and arrival back at the bus stop at around 6:30 pm. She was spending about 4 hours a day on the bus. That's just crazy.

For anyone who may say, that's an old illustration, things have improved since then, consider this. My husband, who hates driving period, used to take the Telegraph bus from Dearborn to Southfield for work. This is the SMART bus I'm talking about with no transfers. He would catch the bus at Mich Ave & Outer Dr and take it to Telegraph & 12 Mile. At least once a week one of 2 things would happen for his afternoon ride, the bus would break down or the bus would have no a/c or heat depending on the season. When the bus broke down, it would be 7 or 7:30 pm before he'd get home from leaving work at 4:30 pm. He stopped working in that area about 3 yrs ago, so these problems are still recent.

For all the energy saving, environmental pros gleaned by using mass transit, I don't think people in metro Detroit will embrace it unless it gets fixed to where it's efficient enough to compete with commuting. I don't see people wanting to spend 2-4 hours of their day on the bus regardless of how many books you can read while riding. It gets to be grueling after awhile. I feel bad for those folks who have to take the bus.

[terryh]

If possible move to a centrally located city such as Ferndale or Royal Oak, hop on one of several Woodward buses, straight shot downtown.

[crawford]

Do you have any evidence for this claim, or did you just pull it out of your ass like you did the line about the buses being 75% empty?

Wait, never mind, I know the answer.

NYC transit farebox recovery ratio is the highest in the nation, and Detroit's is among the lowest.

It doesn't necessarily follow that Detroit buses are running comparatively empty relative to other cities, but the low fairbox recovery ratio certainly suggests this.

[iheartthed]

NYC transit farebox recovery ratio is the highest in the nation, and Detroit's is among the lowest.

It doesn't necessarily follow that Detroit buses are running comparatively empty relative to other cities, but the low fairbox recovery ratio certainly suggests this.

It could also suggest that the equipment that Detroit uses costs more to operate per rider than equipment that other cities use.

Or it could suggest that Detroit is not raising fares sufficiently to match operating costs [[does bus fare still cost $1.25 there?).

Or it could suggest that other cities charge more to ride their systems [[I believe that most other major cities do).

[crawford]

Obviously Detroit's decision to go all-cars all the time for transportation has led us to the fine, thriving region we have today. Everyone just keep driving your cars, and to heck with transit! And things will continue to be wonderful, just as they are today.

While I don't disagree there are serious local problems, I am not getting the causal connection between lack of public transit and poor economy.

There are plenty of U.S. cities with equally bad transit that are boomtowns, and plenty of U.S. cities with excellent transit that are in an economic funk.

And Detroit had [[relatively) poor public transit even back when it was one of America's wealthiest big cities.

Following is from a local school superintendent, explaining why his school system [[not Detroit) has fewer and fewer students:

"We've lost the 20-somethings," he said. "The entire group of 20-somethings who are having kids have fled the area -- fled the state. This [enrollment decline] is completely a result of this."

I frankly think the Superintendent is wrong.

The demographic of educated 20-somethings that has left Detroit for other cities is definitely NOT the demographic with school-age children for that cohort.

This demographic marries and procreates much later than the national median, and has fewer children than the national median.

[crawford]

It could also suggest that the equipment that Detroit uses costs more to operate per rider than equipment that other cities use.

Or it could suggest that Detroit is not raising fares sufficiently to match operating costs [[does bus fare still cost $1.25 there?).

Or it could suggest that other cities charge more to ride their systems [[I believe that most other major cities do).

Agree 100%. All of these factors could play significant roles.

[bailey]

Since we agree that

*Detroit is severely under-retailed [[even poor people need to buy groceries and clothes, you know)

*there is a dearth of jobs in the core city of the region

*over 300,000 people in Detroit have no access to an automobile

would it not follow that some sort of improvement needs to be made to the transit system?

Depends. Frankly, if you solve your list's #2, #1 and #3 would probably take care of themselves. But does #2 have more to do with Detroit being a failed city wherein it is virtually impossible to attract business or workers without substantially incentivising the transaction or is #2 due to the fact there is no light rail up Woodward?

Because, again, there is no proposal to overhaul the entire transit system, or massively condemn huge swaths of Detroit, or radically alter the transit lines in the suburbs through imminent domain seizures, or de-fund expressway expansions and arterial road extensions in low density areas, or to charge true costs to exurbs for the sprawl, or to add a $8.00/gallon tax per gallon of gas to pay for it all. The ""improvement" to transit as proposed is to plop some form of train up and down Woodward in a 2 mile loop...maybe, and a train to the Airport from New Center...maybe.

[DC48080]

Do you have any evidence for this claim, or did you just pull it out of your ass like you did the line about the buses being 75% empty?

Wait, never mind, I know the answer.

"Pull it out of your a**..."?? Wow! What a crude comment. But I guess that is to be expected on here. You do indeed run into all types of people on these internet boards.

Crude comments notwithstanding, The vast majority of DDOT busses I have seen during the workday, including the rush hours are in actuality mostly empty to the degree of about 75% or so.

And if you don't believe that NYC and Chicago have a larger population base than Detroit you are not paying attention. New York has what, about 8 million people? Chicago: about 2 million? Detroit: Just under 900,000. Do the math.

Also, in NYC and Chicago land is very scarce for parking due to the aforementioned population density. Therefore the people who do live and work in those cities do choose to take public transit rather than pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars per month to park their automobiles.

But if you think that public transit such as rail is viable why don't you put together an intelligent proposal which includes costs of land acquisition, construction and equipment costs, and projected revenues and ongoing expenses and present to private investors and see who will be willing to put up the money to build it. Or better yet, present to a governmental agency and see if they will fund it without raising taxes even higher than they are now.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck with that because if it was economically viable it would have been in place by now.

[dcmorrison12]

"Pull it out of your a**..."?? Wow! What a crude comment. But I guess that is to be expected on here. You do indeed run into all types of people on these internet boards.

Crude comments notwithstanding, The vast majority of DDOT busses I have seen during the workday, including the rush hours are in actuality mostly empty to the degree of about 75% or so.

You are quite wrong my friend. DDOT carries about 130,000 passengers daily [[weekdays).

1/3 of Detroit's population depends on the bus system, since they have no access to a car.

DDOT has service standards which designates a minimum amount of ridership that must be met for a line to be operable. Most routes exceed this standard and the weak routes were weeded out just recently.

You should look at the facts, instead of spewing your biased personal stories.

Since you have a biased opinion that buses run 75% empty, you only SEE the buses which look 75% empty.

[professorscott]

The buses are empty or full depending on time of day and where you are on the line. Your Prof has many times trekked into the D from New Baltimore on the SMART 560. Any time of day or night, you look at the bus in New Baltimore, it's nearly empty since it's just starting [[or ending) its run. You get to Macomb Mall or 12 Mile or 10 Mile, it's standing room only, and I've seen the bus have to bypass passengers because it's full and can't take any more passengers.

Some of the less-frequent lines, like the SMART Telegraph or the DDOT Tireman, you rarely are close to half full, so they have whittled down the service to the point that it's very inconvenient, but what are you gonna do? Take the bus off the line, then that person has no way at all to get around?

DDOT and SMART both have miserable farebox recovery ratios for a combination of reasons: fares have not kept up [[$1.50 on DDOT, SMART is going to $2 in December), SMART buses have some of the longest trips of any transit system anywhere, both SMART and DDOT have high operating costs per hour, some of the lines have low ridership. But you can only improve this by increasing ridership and fixing the cost problem - you have to do both - and you can't increase ridership unless you run a decent system: frequent service, nicer shelters, some [[gasp) actual rapid transit.

By the way, someone above said he knew of cities in good shape that didn't have rapid transit. I assume, apples to apples, we're talking big cities here; of course a metro area of several million people isn't going to function like Nome, Alaska. So to the person who wrote that: I'm game; name one. Your prof isn't aware of any other big city anywhere without rapid transit.

[dcmorrison12]

Quality public transportation is so important for a successful city. Once rail is brought to Detroit, we'll see economic investments follow. Retailers prefer to by located near rail stations due to the dedicated pedestrian traffic. Other service industries prefer cities with rail [[Rapid transit) because where there is rail, there is a young professional population. Michigan is seeing a "brain drain" because we don't have the sexy, vibrant city with rapid transit.

Build the rapid transit, then Detroit becomes a MUCH more desirable city to move your headquarters to. Also, the young professionals have a much bigger reason to stick around, therefore enticing more companies to give Detroit a second look.

Rapid transit and economic investment go hand in hand. Take a look at any other city which has invested in transit [[Denver, Dallas, Portland and Minneapolis for example)

The facts are there

[Russix]

…
I agree with your stated priorities. Simply infusing mass transit into Detroit will not magically, instantly make it a great place to live and raise families.

I agree with this too that transit improvement alone will not bring an instant solution to all of the city’s problems. But a table needs four legs to stand on. An off-shoot of better transit services is an increase in population density, which leads to an increase in tax revenues, and if managed correctly, better services like schools and police. You have to “build it and they will come�, not “build it after they come�.

And the reason that Zacarro's prices were so high is because doing business in the city is extremely costly with the high taxes, insurance, theft etc. I highly doubt that having better public transit would have helped reduce costs.

I think their prices were high because they were a high-end luxury food store.

And as I've said before, one of the biggest reasons that transit works in NYC is that they have the population base to support it. The reason bus routes are being eliminated in Detroit is because they don't bring in enough money to allow the city to maintain them.

The reason why transit works in NYC is that they built it and keep building on to it. This maintains the very existence of its core urban environment which without would quickly dilapidate into a very Detroitish looking landscape. You don’t have to dig too deep into the history book to a time when Detroit had population density and transit. You can’t reasonable expect any of that density to return unless the foundation is laid to support that type of growth. Again it’s not a magic cure all, but it is absolutely one of the most important requirement to a successful city. If you forced New Yorkers out of their subways and into buses you’d have to quell an insurrection.

NYC transit farebox recovery ratio is the highest in the nation, and Detroit's is among the lowest.

It doesn't necessarily follow that Detroit buses are running comparatively empty relative to other cities, but the low fairbox recovery ratio certainly suggests this.

NYC also has the highest investment in transit, while Detroit has the lowest.
Coincidence? I think not.

And if you don't believe that NYC and Chicago have a larger population base than Detroit you are not paying attention. New York has what, about 8 million people? Chicago: about 2 million? Detroit: Just under 900,000. Do the math.

Also, in NYC and Chicago land is very scarce for parking due to the aforementioned population density. Therefore the people who do live and work in those cities do choose to take public transit rather than pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars per month to park their automobiles.

Yes they have better transit, which attracts people. New York did not wait until they reached 8 million people and decided that now is the time that they should start building transit to accommodate this population. And why is land scarce in Chicago? Their not on an island like New York, they are more geographically identically to Detroit’s layout. Could it possibly be that they have a well developed transit infrastructure in place that creates density and makes land scarce because [[gasp!) its desirable?

But if you think that public transit such as rail is viable why don't you put together an intelligent proposal which includes costs of land acquisition, construction and equipment costs, and projected revenues and ongoing expenses and present to private investors and see who will be willing to put up the money to build it. Or better yet, present to a governmental agency and see if they will fund it without raising taxes even higher than they are now.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck with that because if it was economically viable it would have been in place by now.

Dude! Where have you been?? TRAIL was the private plan funded completely by private investment. DTOGS was the government one. Read Dcmorrison’s posts on this subject to get up-to-date Mr. [[or Mrs.) “I have 10 posts on detroityes and am completely clueless�

[DC48080]

Dude! Where have you been?? TRAIL was the private plan funded completely by private investment. DTOGS was the government one. Read Dcmorrison’s posts on this subject to get up-to-date Mr. [[or Mrs.) “I have 10 posts on detroityes and am completely clueless” [/quote]


So Russix, having only 10 posts on this forum makes one completely clueless huh? I have been reading this forum for about 5 years now and I have seen that some of the most idiot comments come from folks with the most posts. But I am not going to engage in crude comments or personal attacks as a few malcontents on here seem to do.

Go ahead and get your fantasy rail system built. See how many people it will cause to move into the bombed out, burned out, crime and drug infested neighborhoods [[granted, not ALL of the city is this way) and send their kids to the third world public school system, all while paying pathetically high property taxes and insurance rates and dealing with a police department so understaffed and overworked that they cannot respond properly when called.

Yeah, were living in hell but at least we have a neat choo choo to ride on.

[Bearinabox]

But I am not going to engage in crude comments or personal attacks as a few malcontents on here seem to do.

Not a malcontent, exactly, just a little frustrated that this discussion gets rehashed on here every three weeks and never progresses past "Detroit will never have good transit because nobody here wants it and the city sucks anyway," and irritated at your way of presenting things as indisputable facts when really you just made them up.

[Detroit_ExPat]

There are many, many reasons I prefer to use my own car instead of mass transit. Many of those reasons have been covered in this, and other, threads.

But here's one I had not considered before now. In my car, a stranger/registered sex offender cannot plop down next to me and masturbate. http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/21351677/detail.html

[eriedearie]

Well....EWWWWW! I hope that bus got power washed inside and out after that!

[detroitsgwenivere]

I depended on the regional bus system for the last 5 1/2 years, through jobs, hospital stays, school, personal visits, shopping, etc. Some days I was riding up to 10 buses depending on what I needed to do, and there were good days and bad days. Sometimes I could catch buses back to back, other days the bus took so long I'd have to turn around and go back home, and try again to run the errand another day. There were days where I left at 10 in the morning and got home at 11:30 at night. For several months, I took 3 buses to school downtown, at night, on crutches, in the snow. My life revolved around the bus.

Once in a while, I took the bus somewhere i'd never been and was able to look around and enjoy the new scenery, can't really do that driving. When I took the bus from downtown to m59 and Garfield twice a week, I had plenty of time to do my homework, study, or read. I got straight As all through college doing this.I was able to sit back and relax, not stressing out over traffic, tickets, or being cut off by some dickhead. Plus, I was able to meet people from all walks of life, from different parts of the region, rich and poor, young and old, having conversations with each other about the issues we deal with everyday or the headline on that days paper. I met some city officials on the bus who were working on the Cobo deal and got the straight skinny from the horses mouth, VERY interesting.....

But I also had some bad experiences, usually involving a car cutting off the bus and getting totaled, or some jerk who chose to pick with the driver or another passenger. Once I caught a man touching a very young girl who shouldn't have even been on the bus with no parent, and had to jump off and chase him down the street with the police on the phone, leaving my packpack and purse behind [[I got them back when the driver made his loop around). Another time, a driver freaked out when someone threw a rock at the bus after they got into it and he was forced to get off. The driver decided to stop, at 11 at night, in some dopehood off of Gratiot and told us all to get off. We all prayed together that we would make it home safely after the next bus took over an hour to show up.

But that all being said, it was a good way to go, and I don't regret it. It helped me build character and I got lots of respect from my peers and professors. I think that all of our elected officials should have to take the bus for at least 3 days to get a better idea of what us bussers are forced to deal with, and to get a chance to talk with real people about the issues in our Detroit lives.

Also, a regional bus pass [[to ride both SMART and DDot) only cost me 50 bucks a month, WAY cheaper than driving an insured car at 4 bucks a gallon 20 or more miles a day. If you pay the straight fare, you could literally ride from New Baltimore to Metro airport for 1.75, saving you from finding a ride or paying for car storage.

I saved my money while taking the bus, and in June, went a bought me a new Cadillac. Not a bad deal for all that bus bullshit!!!!!

[ziggyselbin]

I depended on the regional bus system for the last 5 1/2 years, through jobs, hospital stays, school, personal visits, shopping, etc. Some days I was riding up to 10 buses depending on what I needed to do, and there were good days and bad days. Sometimes I could catch buses back to back, other days the bus took so long I'd have to turn around and go back home, and try again to run the errand another day. There were days where I left at 10 in the morning and got home at 11:30 at night. For several months, I took 3 buses to school downtown, at night, on crutches, in the snow. My life revolved around the bus.

Once in a while, I took the bus somewhere i'd never been and was able to look around and enjoy the new scenery, can't really do that driving. When I took the bus from downtown to m59 and Garfield twice a week, I had plenty of time to do my homework, study, or read. I got straight As all through college doing this.I was able to sit back and relax, not stressing out over traffic, tickets, or being cut off by some dickhead. Plus, I was able to meet people from all walks of life, from different parts of the region, rich and poor, young and old, having conversations with each other about the issues we deal with everyday or the headline on that days paper. I met some city officials on the bus who were working on the Cobo deal and got the straight skinny from the horses mouth, VERY interesting.....

But I also had some bad experiences, usually involving a car cutting off the bus and getting totaled, or some jerk who chose to pick with the driver or another passenger. Once I caught a man touching a very young girl who shouldn't have even been on the bus with no parent, and had to jump off and chase him down the street with the police on the phone, leaving my packpack and purse behind [[I got them back when the driver made his loop around). Another time, a driver freaked out when someone threw a rock at the bus after they got into it and he was forced to get off. The driver decided to stop, at 11 at night, in some dopehood off of Gratiot and told us all to get off. We all prayed together that we would make it home safely after the next bus took over an hour to show up.

But that all being said, it was a good way to go, and I don't regret it. It helped me build character and I got lots of respect from my peers and professors. I think that all of our elected officials should have to take the bus for at least 3 days to get a better idea of what us bussers are forced to deal with, and to get a chance to talk with real people about the issues in our Detroit lives.

Also, a regional bus pass [[to ride both SMART and DDot) only cost me 50 bucks a month, WAY cheaper than driving an insured car at 4 bucks a gallon 20 or more miles a day. If you pay the straight fare, you could literally ride from New Baltimore to Metro airport for 1.75, saving you from finding a ride or paying for car storage.

I saved my money while taking the bus, and in June, went a bought me a new Cadillac. Not a bad deal for all that bus bullshit!!!!!

Your tale makes for good reading but you must know it certainly does not make me [[and others) think the bus is a good way to go in Detroit. Of course what happened while you rode busses is not exclusive to Detroit.

I don't get how " exploring" new area's by bus is more convenient than by car; and gas has never been four dollars a gallon or not for a very long time.

[dcmorrison12]

Your tale makes for good reading but you must know it certainly does not make me [[and others) think the bus is a good way to go in Detroit. Of course what happened while you rode busses is not exclusive to Detroit.

I don't get how " exploring" new area's by bus is more convenient than by car; and gas has never been four dollars a gallon or not for a very long time.

You're problem, and America's problem is that you are thinking short term. Gas WILL be $4 dollars a gallon and higher in the near future. Just wait and see