ride the bus? nope

[Downriviera]

That balloon boy got me to thinking....how long would it take a balloon to get from Sterling Heights to downtown Detroit.

[East Detroit]

Park & Ride... don't walk to the bus stop.

[DetroitDad]

I live a little bit further from work than I would like to, but close enough to walk in the Summer, and take the bus up the radial from the Rosa Park Transit Center in the Winter. The drive time and transit time is very close, if not the same, during the week. If you live and work on a direct radial, there really is no problem. The original poster seems to be making a point more about the absurdities of suburban sprawl living than anything else.

As to peak oil, sorry guys, you are wrong, it is a proven phenomenon. What basically happened was that many experts like M.K. Hubbert who were credible industry experts started retiring, and once they safely got out from under the oil industry giants, began preaching that peak oil was real and coming. More recently, we have Exxon Mobil beginning to acknowledge that there is some truth to the "theory" [[which is huge), but refuse to comment more. We also have some major and minor city councils and foreign countries beginning to prepare for peak oil.

The 70's was kind of a different thing. Looking back, America did in fact peak then, but not everywhere else. Beyond that, some developments and fresh discoveries basically put off the problem. Rest assured, peak oil is real, and there is unequivocal evidence that this depression was made worse, if not caused by it. Are you forgeting those oil prices that put our economy and way of life into a tail spin last Summer [[2008)?

PS: I read my daughter the story of the boy that cried wolf the other day. Despite what he did in the beginning, there really was a wolf that did eventually come and rip him apart, dragging him kicking and screaming out of his car whether he liked it or not... wait.... SORRY BABY GIRL, I MESSED UP THE STORY AGAIN. Ain't Daddy goofy? Aboo boo boo

Wake up and smell the lack of new cheap oil fields in a world that is much poorer than it was a couple years ago.

[reddog289]

The building where I work at next week is a five min walk from my house I timed it. And the first day I walk to work will be the day I need to use my truck at work.
Even my supervisor says I should walk to work.But is also the same person who sends me on errands at times.

[DC48080]

Maybe the attitude of "This is Detroit" has gotten this city in the perdicament that it is in now. Years ago this city had neighborhood markets and a business district every so many miles. Curtis/Wyoming. Warren/Conners, Van Dyke/Harper. Mack/7. Livernois/7, Greenfield/Grand River, Gratiot/7. Each area had their own anchor store and supportive stores with it. You didnt have to drive far to Joy/Grand River if you lived on Seebalt. That is what made Detroit grand. The buses ran better and each neighborhood had their own supermarket. One may had A&P. The other had Great Scott. When you didn't like the one in the area then you travelled to the other one. They were still off a bus line and they had parking lots for those to drive.Detroit had catered to her residents back then. Now Detroit is not catering to anyone but a one night stand at a sports bar for us suburbanites

Yes, Detroit did have all those neighborhood shopping centers years ago. But Detroit also had 2 million residents to cater to as well. Those local shopping centers failed as the city became virtually abandoned.

Nobody is going to open up stores on that scale again as long as the out of control crime problem is still around. It is far too expensive to do business in Detroit with the high taxes, insurance costs, theft etc. Plain and simple: Business goes where the profit is. If the costs and risks outweigh the potential for profit no business will come. Business are not charities, they exist to make a profit for their owners/shareholders.

And by the way, just how many people would take the bus to the grocery store and stand around at a bus stop with a dozen bags of groceries waiting for a bus that may or may not come and then board said bus with those same dozen bags? I doubt many would. All these fantasies of better public transit just will not work in today's Detroit. "If you build it they will come" simply does not apply in this case.

Clean up the city, improve the schools, get the crime under control, parents start raising their children properly, people start showing respect for one another, get some decent city services, reduce the exhorbitant tax burden, these are the things that will make people move into the city. Then and only then will business follow.

[Jason]

Detroit's lack of proper mass transit isn't the norm, it's the exception. Just about anywhere else on the planet, cities have decent transportation. The US in general has poor transit, and Detroit is even one of the worst in the US.

DC, people all around the world do errands using mass transit, they just do them in a different way. Obviously you can't go to Wal-Mart and buy a minivan full of groceries using the bus, but you can stop at the grocery store at the stop on the way home and get a couple day's worth of groceries. The grocery store will locate there because there are tons of people passing by who need to do errands, just like there are gas stations by highway exits. The taxes and crime stuff is a red herring, because people aren't going to do business in those areas regardless of the mode of transportation. Detroit and the metro in general have a list of things that need to be fixed, but effective transit is one of them.

TODs [[and mass transit in general) isn't some kind of wild liberal conspiracy. The idea is that you build efficient infrastructure, and then you align development to it.

The reason why Detroit is the way it is today [[not conducive to transit) is because it hasn't had transit. If mass transit already existed in a meaningful way, then development would have grown along the transit lines, and obviously then taking mass transit would be easier. But there's always tomorrow, and if a decent system is established, then over time the city will start to change according to it, just like it did for the highways, except highways aren't as effective as other modes, and don't encourage healthy growth patterns.

[gazhekwe]

DC48080 The reason why Detroit is the way it is today [[not conducive to transit) is because it hasn't had transit.

Detroit has a history of great transit. At one time, you could ride the Interurban to Birmingham, Pontiac, Ann Arbor and even as far as Chelsea, also Monroe and points south. These were big commuter lines. The Chelsea line served Jiffy Mix, which still produces there today. We had a well established and functioning street rail system in the city with streetcars and connecting bus lines.

Detroit also has a habit of shooting itself in the foot transitwise. Mayor James Couzens vetoed the first subway bond issue in the 20s. The Interurban shut down in 1938. The DSR Streetcar lines closed in 1956 and they began ripping up the lines soon thereafter to make sure they could never come back.

Things have been tried here and failed as well. One example is Henry Ford and Thomas Edison's electric rail experiment downriver. You can still see their cement arches over the railroad tracks down that way. As the urban center shrinks and the outer suburbs change in response to current issues, how will we adapt? Let's hope with unity and purpose to unite common trails in a usable way.

I agree, once the hubs are established, services will grow around them.

[Patrick]

If Detroit wants to expand its mass transit options, I suggest it looks at DC's bus system. Being here in NoVa now, I can tell you how convneient it is. The Metro [[rail) isn't all the great but the bus system works well and they run on natural gas.

[EMG]

Detroit's lack of proper mass transit isn't the norm, it's the exception. Just about anywhere else on the planet, cities have decent transportation. The US in general has poor transit, and Detroit is even one of the worst in the US.

Detroit's reliance on the auto industry has long had a good deal to do with that. When you're in the business of selling lemonade, you don't promote investments in Pepsi!

[DC48080]

Yes, Detroit had decent public transit in the past. Detroit also had 2 million residents in the late 1950s. People did not move out of the city in droves because the streetcars were eliminated or because there was no rail system. People moved out of the city to seek out cleaner air, lower taxes, lower crime, and better schools among other things.

Right now there is not a sufficient population base to support rail transit. Currently the busses are about 75% empty most of the time. Even if an improved transit system were to be put in place you will not see a mass movement of people establishing residency in the city. I have yet to hear anyone say "If only Detroit had a decent mass transit system I would buy a house down there".

Transit is indeed one item on the list of things that need to be improved for the city to prosper. But it is nowhere near the top of that list. Crime, taxes, schools, drugs, attitude, poor parenting, and political corruption all need attention before transit.

I want to see the city prosper as much as the next guy but other things need to be taken care of before transit if you're going to see an influx of new residents.

[Bearinabox]

Yes, Detroit did have all those neighborhood shopping centers years ago. But Detroit also had 2 million residents to cater to as well. Those local shopping centers failed as the city became virtually abandoned.

That explanation makes no sense. Different parts of the city have different levels of abandonment, but the condition of the neighborhood shopping districts is almost uniformly awful, even when the adjacent neighborhoods have fairly stable middle-class populations. If the primary means of transportation for people who lived in those neighborhoods were something other than private cars, it would make sense for them to shop within walking distance of where they lived, and parking wouldn't be an issue. If people are used to driving to get everywhere they go, they will gravitate toward large stores with large parking lots where they can get everything they need in one trip, even if it means shopping far from where they live.

[Bearinabox]

Currently the busses are about 75% empty most of the time.

That, my friend, is pure, unadulterated horseshit. Have you ever ridden a DDOT bus?

I have yet to hear anyone say "If only Detroit had a decent mass transit system I would buy a house down there".

You don't talk to many young folks then, do you? Remember, the alternative to "down there" for people who think in those terms is not Sterling Heights or Troy, it's New York or Chicago.

[stasu1213]

Yes, Detroit did have all those neighborhood shopping centers years ago. But Detroit also had 2 million residents to cater to as well. Those local shopping centers failed as the city became virtually abandoned.

Nobody is going to open up stores on that scale again as long as the out of control crime problem is still around. It is far too expensive to do business in Detroit with the high taxes, insurance costs, theft etc. Plain and simple: Business goes where the profit is. If the costs and risks outweigh the potential for profit no business will come. Business are not charities, they exist to make a profit for their owners/shareholders.

And by the way, just how many people would take the bus to the grocery store and stand around at a bus stop with a dozen bags of groceries waiting for a bus that may or may not come and then board said bus with those same dozen bags? I doubt many would. All these fantasies of better public transit just will not work in today's Detroit. "If you build it they will come" simply does not apply in this case.

Clean up the city, improve the schools, get the crime under control, parents start raising their children properly, people start showing respect for one another, get some decent city services, reduce the exhorbitant tax burden, these are the things that will make people move into the city. Then and only then will business follow.

In yesteryear people didn't have to get on the bus to go to the grocery store. People just went to the one that was within walking distance from them. If you lived on East Jefferson in the 60's you haved Great Scotts in one area to serve the people in that area and a few blocks down there were an A&P to serve the people in that area. On Gratiot there were a A&P on Crane to serve the people in that area. There was a Lauris Bros on Van Dyke and Gratiot to serve the people in that area. People had pulling baskets to bring their groceries home if there were many bags.

[Russix]

Drive to Van Dyke, there is Park and Ride lot somewhere, hop on the 510. From 17 Mile rd its 1 hour. Read a book.

[DetroitDad]

You don't talk to many young folks then, do you? Remember, the alternative to "down there" for people who think in those terms is not Sterling Heights or Troy, it's New York or Chicago.

Exactly! countless people I've talked to or worked with in the Downtown area, as well as myself, answer the question why they chose Detroit along the lines of that they are here because they want to stay close to family and familiarity, can't afford nicer cities [[the demand for good urban living is astronomical, because it uniformly stinks in so many places in America), or have some obligation keeping them here. If it was not for those things, most of the folks I have talked to would probably move.

[DC48080]

Bottom line: Let you who think mass transit will revive the city pool your money and open grocery stores etc. in the city. Let's see how many people flock to your stores. Let's see how you fare up against all of the theft and other crime that comes with operating a business in Detroit. The harsh reality is that Detroit is an extremely hostile environment in which to operate a business, both from the governmental side as well as from the populace.

And what is with all of the negative attitudes toward private cars? Is owning a car and wanting the freedom and flexibility that comes with it so bad?

But please, all of the pollyanna types on here, please open said stores. I will patronize your establishments because I want the city to succeed. However, I don't think you will last more than a year at the most.

Look at Zacarro's [[sp?) market in Midtown. How long did it last? It did not fail for lack of mass transit.

Businesses will locate where they think they will make a profit.

[eastland]

All the jobs are out in northern Oakland and Macomb and western Wayne counties. Getting car-less people out to those area is where the transit plans and strategies should focus.

[Bearinabox]

All the jobs are out in northern Oakland and Macomb and western Wayne counties.

I have never in my life worked in any of those areas. I guess every job I've ever had has been a figment of my imagination.

[Russix]

Bottom line: Let you who think mass transit will revive the city pool your money and open grocery stores etc. in the city. Let's see how many people flock to your stores. Let's see how you fare up against all of the theft and other crime that comes with operating a business in Detroit. The harsh reality is that Detroit is an extremely hostile environment in which to operate a business, both from the governmental side as well as from the populace.

And what is with all of the negative attitudes toward private cars? Is owning a car and wanting the freedom and flexibility that comes with it so bad?

But please, all of the pollyanna types on here, please open said stores. I will patronize your establishments because I want the city to succeed. However, I don't think you will last more than a year at the most.

Look at Zacarro's [[sp?) market in Midtown. How long did it last? It did not fail for lack of mass transit.

Businesses will locate where they think they will make a profit.

The market for grocery stores is pretty saturated in my neighborhood. It didn't help Zacarro's that they priced themselves out of reach from 95% of the people around them making their customer base primarily suburban. The success or failure theory based on transit is not something we can locally prove. Would Zacarro's have done better located next to subway hub in New York? Ultimately, it probably depends more on the buying power of the neighborhood then the accessibility to transit. But since we're comparatively speaking, how can you say transit will not revive the city when the most successful city in America[[New York) has the largest public transportation system in the world????????

[stasu1213]

Zacarros would had done better in Lafayette Park instead of Downtown Foodland being there. Free parking would had been a plus and you don't have the homeless shelter across the street.

[DC48080]

The market for grocery stores is pretty saturated in my neighborhood. It didn't help Zacarro's that they priced themselves out of reach from 95% of the people around them making their customer base primarily suburban. The success or failure theory based on transit is not something we can locally prove. Would Zacarro's have done better located next to subway hub in New York? Ultimately, it probably depends more on the buying power of the neighborhood then the accessibility to transit. But since we're comparatively speaking, how can you say transit will not revive the city when the most successful city in America[[New York) has the largest public transportation system in the world????????

And the reason that Zacarro's prices were so high is because doing business in the city is extremely costly with the high taxes, insurance, theft etc. I highly doubt that having better public transit would have helped reduce costs.

And as I've said before, one of the biggest reasons that transit works in NYC is that they have the population base to support it. The reason bus routes are being eliminated in Detroit is because they don't bring in enough money to allow the city to maintain them.

[iheartthed]

Rail is a very 19th century mode of transit and is quite obsolete in this area in this day and age. Sure it works in New York City and Chicago, but there are millions more people living in each of those towns than even lived in Detroit in it's heyday 50 years ago.

Yeah, rails are a very 19th century mode of transit. It is also a 20th and 21st century mode of transit. OTOH, the car culture is showing signs of aging.

Btw, Boston, San Francisco and Washington, D.C. are also cities where rail transit "works". These are also cities that are smaller than the city of Detroit.

[Fury13]

Right now there is not a sufficient population base to support rail transit. Currently the busses are about 75% empty most of the time. Even if an improved transit system were to be put in place you will not see a mass movement of people establishing residency in the city.

I will agree that you need population density for successful light-rail transit. So, where are people congregated? Where in the metro area would people actually use light rail? Answer: the walkable inner-ring suburbs, especially in Oakland County. A line on Woodward from 8 Mile to 15 Mile [[Maple) would get heavy usage.

[Fury13]

And by the way, just how many people would take the bus to the grocery store and stand around at a bus stop with a dozen bags of groceries waiting for a bus that may or may not come and then board said bus with those same dozen bags? I doubt many would...

Clean up the city, improve the schools, get the crime under control, parents start raising their children properly, people start showing respect for one another, get some decent city services, reduce the exhorbitant tax burden, these are the things that will make people move into the city. Then and only then will business follow.

I agree with your stated priorities. Simply infusing mass transit into Detroit will not magically, instantly make it a great place to live and raise families.

Interesting what you said about using transit when grocery-shopping, though. Generally, residents in NYC or Chicago shop for groceries the old-fashioned way: they buy a couple of small bags at a time [[which aren't difficult to bring on the subway or bus). They're getting fresh food every few days, and making more frequent trips to the corner grocer. That's how it's done. These folks are not going to Costco or Wal-Mart and getting a month's worth of stuff at a time.

[ghettopalmetto]

I agree with your stated priorities. Simply infusing mass transit into Detroit will not magically, instantly make it a great place to live and raise families.

Interesting what you said about using transit when grocery-shopping, though. Generally, residents in NYC or Chicago shop for groceries the old-fashioned way: they buy a couple of small bags at a time [[which aren't difficult to bring on the subway or bus). They're getting fresh food every few days, and making more frequent trips to the corner grocer. That's how it's done. These folks are not going to Costco or Wal-Mart and getting a month's worth of stuff at a time.

And, dare I say, those cities still have grocery stores with *gasp* parking lots for those who wish to drive! As Yakov Smirnov would say, "What a country!"

When I lived in DC, I had no problem walking six blocks and putting 2 weeks worth of groceries in my grandma cart. That, or you just pick up a couple things on the way home from work, or you walk to the farmers market. Horribly pleasant and inconvenient, I know. It would have been far more preferable to have to slug 10 miles each way through traffic to pick up a gallon of milk. :-)